Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[Khev]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

From that pov they could have had the military accidentally set off the beacon, so that Superman wasn't just fixing a problem he caused. It would have been a small change, but I wonder if it would alleviate some of the criticism for what follows.

I wish we first learned of Zod when the humans did, this way the "you are not alone" would've been creepy and more effective.

Both cool ideas. If the military set off the beacon Clark could have even been "no! what have you done!" to drive home that he has to save these puny humans from their own mistakes.

 

[Niltusk]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I wish we first learned of Zod when the humans did, this way the "you are not alone" would've been creepy and more effective.

As it stands now, just a big waste of time.

I would have liked this. I thought Shannon made a bad ass Zod, but there is some need to Boba Feet some villains in movies anymore and remember sometimes less can be more.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The biggest problem with MOS is that they created a scenario where the world was better off without Superman. it's kind of absurd when you think about it. Wouldn't it be great to have a guy that can do everything a save everyone? Instead he causes the death of thousands of people by bringing Zod to Earth. Of course he is "protecting" Earth but no one sees it that way and it's his fault they came anyway. This is actually the reason I don't like when Superman fights aliens because #1 they usually have to make him overpowered to compete and #2 it drags Earth into fights that humans have nothing to do with. I feel like now that Luthor is the villain again, this might be resolved for this film. The only way to make it work is to establish that alien invasion is inevitable. They didn't do that with MOS. HAVING said all that, I feel like if Zod had been a sequel villain, like 2 or 3, people would swallow the destruction a lot better. Now, it kinda defines the character. I really hope they don't try to "end the world" in the sequel.

The deaths weren't Supes' fault, the military were the 1st to cause a lot of destruction in Smallville before any fights had even started, sure he brought Zod to the town in anger, but in the middle of the fight he did try to fly off with Faora but Namek caught up to him and brought him down again.

I don't see how he's overpowered, he was effectively KO'd by Faora and Nam-Ek twice.

Well, yeah people have nothing to do with it, it's the same with any villain, Alien or not, people have nothing to do with them, yet they're in the middle of all the chaos.

However, the fact that they came it's indeed Supes' fault, and I expect Luthor to capitalize that in an anti-Supes campaign in this movie.

---The military setting off the beacon is a pretty good idea.

 

[morphosis]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The biggest problem with MOS is that they created a scenario where the world was better off without Superman. it's kind of absurd when you think about it. Wouldn't it be great to have a guy that can do everything a save everyone? Instead he causes the death of thousands of people by bringing Zod to Earth. Of course he is "protecting" Earth but no one sees it that way and it's his fault they came anyway. This is actually the reason I don't like when Superman fights aliens because #1 they usually have to make him overpowered to compete and #2 it drags Earth into fights that humans have nothing to do with. I feel like now that Luthor is the villain again, this might be resolved for this film. The only way to make it work is to establish that alien invasion is inevitable. They didn't do that with MOS. HAVING said all that, I feel like if Zod had been a sequel villain, like 2 or 3, people would swallow the destruction a lot better. Now, it kinda defines the character. I really hope they don't try to "end the world" in the sequel.

For decades a lot of comics are about is the world better off without him. This was not a MoS concept. Same with Batman and most superheroes. The superheroes get blamed a lot for the villains coming out and reeking havoc by the citizens.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Yes, I have also thought that Zod would have been better suited for a sequel, I actually would have liked to see Supes dealing with common criminals first, making him look like a god with handgun bullets bouncing off of him.

In fact, he could have triggered the beacon, stand against common earthly criminals and have Zod arrive in a sequel, since you know how unpredictable wormholes are.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

For decades a lot of comics are about is the world better off without him. This was not a MoS concept. Same with Batman and most superheroes. The superheroes get blamed a lot for the villains coming out and reeking havoc by the citizens.

Yeah, that's Luthor's whole point, that we're better off without superheroes.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

It would have been cool if Superman had been revealed to the world all by his lonesome instead of concurrently with a group of other super powered weirdos. Introducing Superman at the same time you're introducing the villains diminishes the excitement of him a bit I think. It's no wonder people look at this Superman in such a negative light.

Right off the bat it makes him less special to the world he inhabits. He's not SuperMAN, he's one of many SuperMEN (plus the tough chick). It's just a weird way of portraying the character in his first movie. While he's fighting the baddies, he himself looks like an opposing threat. I really think there's something to having Superman's first appearance be through human-in-danger scenarios or petty/major crimes. As an audience member, how can I relate to an OTT alien invasion that I've never experienced, let alone be wowed by a Superman battling other flashy, super powered beings in his debut movie? It'd be much more interesting to have seen Superman dealing with the problems of our world before, "OMG, END OF THE WORLD TERRA-FORMING SCHEME BY EVIL SPACE ALIENS". The big stakes thing is getting old with each and every superhero flick. It wouldn't have hurt if they went smaller and saved the doomsday, super powered punching for the next installment. I'm not saying another Lex Luthor real-estate scheme or Superman Returns right off the bat, but you know, something that makes Superman the focal point initially instead of super duper Kryptonian bros.

They could have done an interesting character study without a super baddie. The action could have been in the form of Superman vs. human threats. Superman Returns was boring as crud, but I don't remember people complaining about scenes like the Plane rescue, the machine gun rooftop scene, etc. Maybe not saving cat's from trees, but I think this movie needed something more down to earth for Superman to do as Superman (not oil rigging crap as hermit Clark). I actually like the bus scene of him as a kid saving his fellow classmates over the slug fest at the end with Zod. It's way more relatable than two cartoons punching away at each other.

Then of course, Costner Kent ruins it by the "saving people might be wrong" mumbo jumbo. Ugh.

Exactly, I've made that point a few times myself. The counter-point people will inevitably make is ''but we saw the smaller scale stuff and people rescues already and it made Superman Returns boring and repetitive of what we got in the 70s and 80s'' They wouldn't be entirely wrong in saying that. SR was boring in large parts. A supervillain was needed again. But they didn't need to reboot the ****ing thing to give us a supervillain. Sure you couldn't have given us Zod because he was done already in the Reeve continuity (though apparently he wasn't killed) but there are others they could have used and it would have pre-empted this complaint you and I have about this new Superman. The backstory is done, we've seen the world love Superman, we've seen a modern take on the Lex Luthor plot and super-rescues of Superman The Movie, the next logical step was a modern take on the supervillain battles of Superman II.

Only problem as far as I'm concerned would be that it wouldn't be Cavill. He is better than Routh. And so is Amy Adams better than Kate Bosworth. Also there was the problem of the superkid...

 

[Niltusk]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I think one of the better points Difab made was Superman is one of them, just cause one random military guy claimed acceptance of him during the movie, it was clear at the end that this wasn't the consensus. Compare and contrast this to a justice league toon that was on the other night where he actually had to remind someone he was an alien. Unfortunately, there is truth to the first impressions cliche... He may never be the adored Superman people are used to... but I'm actually ok with that and don't mind seeing him in a different role.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Well, they would be wrong considering this was a reboot, right? I don't care if the smaller stuff would be considered "already done". I mean, we already saw "Superman vs. Zod and Co." in the 80s didn't we? You don't have an origin story like this that purposely showcases a brand new Superman without covering those essential, down to earth basics.

Like you said though,





They could have just ignored Superman Returns, or hell, reboot it without saying it's a reboot. Just dive into a new story where Superman was established. No origin, no Krypton, no Kansas. Simply go right into a new story where he's fighting super powered baddies.

The only risk with a reboot not going through the origin or a character's pre-identity history (like training, learning the ropes, etc.) is that you could risk your audience not being emotionally invested in the character. That's only if you have a ****** story in my opinion. MoS did the whole background thing again and I gave as much care with it as I did Returns.

I don't think they would have done a reboot that wasn't a retelling of the origin story. That just doesn't seem likely and as you said would lead to problems of the viewer not really caring about what was going on/having no emotional investment.

But whatever film came after Superman Returns, it was inevitably going to have a supervillain/superbattles in response to the criticisms of SR. The choices were - give Returns a sequel or reboot it with an origin story. In the latter scenario you are now forcing supervillains into it because that's what the audience currently needs to see. Unfortunately for reasons you and I have brought up that creates a problem. The world's first exposure to Superman see's his otherwise amazing and unique nature greatly reduced and for all they know he may have an agenda of his own that isn't nicey nice. A sequel to SR wouldn't have had this problem and you'd have a universe that feels more compatible with Justice League, other superheroes etc. Whose bright idea was it to portray a world that has zero experience of aliens and the fantastical, i.e our real world, and now suddenly every superhero under the sun (and beyond it) is gonna show up. Stupid if you ask me.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I would have liked this. I thought Shannon made a bad ass Zod, but there is some need to Boba Feet some villains in movies anymore and remember sometimes less can be more.

 

[Khev]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Yeah, that's Luthor's whole point, that we're better off without superheroes.

So are you saying that the villain is supposed to be right...? Because after MOS Luthor certainly wouldn't have to try very hard to convince people of that.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

So are you saying that the villain is supposed to be right...? Because after MOS Luthor certainly wouldn't have to try very hard to convince people of that.

I think the confusion many of us are having is that we were assuming this was Earth-1, the traditional DC Universe. But now, it seems to me they're trying to do Earth-3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth-Three

This ain't Superman. It's ****ing Ultraman. Thinking of it this way, so much of Man of Steel makes sense.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

So are you saying that the villain is supposed to be right...? Because after MOS Luthor certainly wouldn't have to try very hard to convince people of that.

This might have been interesting in an actual MOS sequel, perhaps a lot of MOS doubters like myself could be retroactively brought around to appreciating it if our complaints could be dealt with within the sequel story in a convincing and enjoyable manner. But no, straight to a superhero mashup, we want that money.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The scene in SR where he does a quiet flyover just above the buildings and all the humans look up at him, no music, just sound of his cape billowing in the wind surpasses many of the hyper stuff from MOS.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

The scene in SR where he does a quiet flyover just above the buildings and all the humans look up at him, no music, just sound of his cape billowing in the wind surpasses many of the hyper stuff from MOS.

Agreed. The best parts of SR are better than any single moment in MOS even if the overall film also falls a bit flat.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Yeah, but did Returns give us this?

**** no it didn't. EXTREME!!!

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Bringing it back to Batman vs. Superman, as far as stakes go, what threat do you go for after super terraform machines and kryptonian genetic engineering where the whole world is at stake? Doesn't anyone want to see a more personal story anymore?

Zach Snyder would be so ****ing confused with this argument. If it isn't EXTREME then it's ****.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Punisher-El

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

TWS villain had a great plan, they were stopping at 20 million.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

So are you saying that the villain is supposed to be right...? Because after MOS Luthor certainly wouldn't have to try very hard to convince people of that.

He's kind of right, in some POVs, in this case, some people seem to have no problem making a case against MoS turning a blind eye to some things, that's how I expect Luthor to do it in this movie.