Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

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Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

But that's the thing Kal was not helpless. He could have saved his father, he was just told not to.

It doesn't matter if we was litterally helpless its the internal feelings and emotion in that moment he was helpless and "watched his own father die" . Its the same feeling victims families feel when perpetrators don't get adequate punishment. Hey you may know exactly who murdered your loved one but your are not allowed to act on it. Are u litter ally helpless, no, you could go and kill that son of ***** but you don't due to repercussions of your actions. Its the same in this scene
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I'd love to hear your thoughts on why the tornado scene worked. I'm up for any excuse to enjoy the film more.

(I removed it from my earlier post and put it here:)


I found it extremely easy to love man of steel, the only problems I have with it is that the ending is sloppy (and though not an issue for myself, I can see why it became desensitising to people). The omission of a scene acknowledging the destruction of Metropolis and laying out a setup for that to be dealt with in the next film is a very simple yet very impactful flaw. Hell General Swanwick could've at least mentioned it and the cut from Zod's death straight to that scene is ridiculously blunt. However the tornado scene is brilliant imo, because it let's Clarke feel the way all humans would feel. He will carry that with him for the rest of his life to remind him what it means to be powerless and to respect the consequences of his own power. It teaches him the true pain of humanity and I like that level of emotion. I love Man of Steel for its depiction of Jon Kent because there's finally someone who acknowledges what a massive impact the discovery of a being like superman could have. Maybe it's because I myself am not American, and am very aware of the fact that my country will never have much of a say in world politics. And so Superman is to outside countries essentially a weapon America possesses. Superman is basically a unique sentient atomic bomb with regards to what he could do to other nations with it. And it doesn't matter if Clarke is good, or if WE know Clarke is good. The point of Jon is that others, others outside America but presumably also inside (Oh hey look its jesse eisenberg), might respond negatively to his very existence and that it could harm a lot of people because they might disagree, violently, on what to do with Superman. What if other nations decide that a preemptive strike against america in order to destroy superman as a power threat to them is being acted upon? How many livs could be lost in a conflict just over superman's existence and the threat he exerts.

As for the destruction in man of steel, as I said, if this film, MoS2, doesn't deal with that subject THAT is the point where I will turn on Snyder and say, okay dude, you gotta pick this up now (and I am confident he will). But within the context of part 1 Superman not being able to contain the violence of Zod is not a flaw of the film imo it's the exact point of it. They gave Superman an arc that's blatantly unfinished. And he's clearly NOT Superman at the end of Man of Steel. But that's actually what I love about it, because it's a setup. And it implies a journey to come in where we will see him become that hero. I understand why some don't like Man of Steel because of it, and that it's not Superman, maybe not Superman in any real way, but it's not a flaw of the film. It's the point of it. You can either appreciate that point or not. And I mean I know plenty of people who have BECOME Superman fans because of man of steel, because they now feel him as more relatable. So having acknowledged that I too see technical flaws with the film, especially toward the end, I genuinely feel MoS is one of the best in its genre. And easily the best reboot I've ever seen for anything. And if you disagree that's fine I have no issues with that. But my position is not outrageous nor unreasonable many people agree overall.

And ftr, if Snyder doesn't live up to what I hope with BvS (which I still refer to as MoS2) THAN I will join the side that's angry over collateral damage. But in interviews with snyder and goyer I'm so far confident he will.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

@Chew He wasn't just told not too, he couldn't out himself just like that at such a young age, without any consideration of timing or placement. He'd out himself in front of the whole town and everybody would know who he was, where he came from. His parents could've been thrown into jail for keeping him from the government when they found him! There's so many very negative consequences and Jon Kent knew this, and he decided to sacrifice himself to show his son the ultimate form of selfless responsibility. I teared up, massively. Lot of people I know who did so. It's such a powerful scene. It's completely and utterly about selflessness. And Cavill and Costner both nail it acting wise. That scream... "DAAAAAAAAAAD!" That's Superman's humanity right there. And one day it will drive him to do greater things than even Jor-El thought possible when he will see a child nearly losing his dad in some accident or whatever. I'm so confident that Snyder and Goyer will show this in films to come. And although not literally, it was already in Man of Steel. That moment whhere he goes through the beam, that's the moment where's he's like, I must do this to save everybody. This time, I will NOT sit idle.

Kal couldn't save Jon, despite his powers. And that's exactly why it's so powerful. Imo.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I see what you are saying,. I was so perplexed by so many things in this movie I even went out and bought the novelization to help understand things. According to the book, the only reason Kal was helpless was because his father was afraid everyone would see what he could and and the world would come after him. Which I found in total opposition to the source material. How many times has clark done a super deed under cover and not gotten caught? That was his MO in the 60's and 70's. Clark would disappear for a moment someone was saved or a disaster was averted and moments later Clark would reappear with a convent story. With the tornado so close, and all that wind whipping around visibility was minimal, anything could have happened. Clark could have ran in, saved his father and blamed it on the wind or something. However, before all of that I did not understand why a middle aged man would even think to be a better retriever of a dog than a teenaged boy. Clark could have gotten the dog and been away from the car without letting on about his powers. To me it always seemed to be a contrived way to 1. Prove how much his father loved his son after the argument they just had in the car, and 2 a way to play out the inevitable death scene from the 79 superman movie.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

@Chew He wasn't just told not too, he couldn't out himself just like that at such a young age, without any consideration of timing or placement. He'd out himself in front of the whole town and everybody would know who he was, where he came from. His parents could've been thrown into jail for keeping him from the government when they found him! There's so many very negative consequences and Jon Kent knew this, and he decided to sacrifice himself to show his son the ultimate form of selfless responsibility. I teared up, massively. Lot of people I know who did so. It's such a powerful scene. It's completely and utterly about selflessness. And Cavill and Costner both nail it acting wise. That scream... "DAAAAAAAAAAD!" That's Superman's humanity right there. And one day it will drive him to do greater things than even Jor-El thought possible when he will see a child nearly losing his dad. I'm so confident that Snyder and Goyer will show this in films to come.

Kal couldn't save Jon, despite his powers. And that's exactly why it's so powerful. Imo.

I loved that scene too. Very emotional scene.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I see what you are saying,. I was so perplexed by so many things in this movie I even went out and bought the novelization to help understand things. According to the book, the only reason Kal was helpless was because his father was afraid everyone would see what he could and and the world would come after him. Which I found in total opposition to the source material. How many times has clark done a super deed under cover and not gotten caught? That was his MO in the 60's and 70's. Clark would disappear for a moment someone was saved or a disaster was averted and moments later Clark would reappear with a convent story. With the tornado so close, and all that wind whipping around visibility was minimal, anything could have happened. Clark could have ran in, saved his father and blamed it on the wind or something. However, before all of that I did not understand why a middle aged man would even think to be a better retriever of a dog than a teenaged boy. Clark could have gotten the dog and been away from the car without letting on about his powers. To me it always seemed to be a contrived way to 1. Prove how much his father loved his son after the argument they just had in the car, and 2 a way to play out the inevitable death scene from the 79 superman movie.

That's the problem. Its beyond contrived. I remember opening night posting about how great the movie was except this scene nagging me. When we went again that Sunday it was outright grating on me. We saw it the following weekend again and through about 6 home viewings this scene and the satellite both seem overdone and contrived and I don't feel they fit the overall movie. If the tornado works for some great, but I find it hard to believe they couldn't convey that emotion with a less contrived circumstance.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I see what you are saying,. I was so perplexed by so many things in this movie I even went out and bought the novelization to help understand things. According to the book, the only reason Kal was helpless was because his father was afraid everyone would see what he could and and the world would come after him. Which I found in total opposition to the source material. How many times has clark done a super deed under cover and not gotten caught? That was his MO in the 60's and 70's. Clark would disappear for a moment someone was saved or a disaster was averted and moments later Clark would reappear with a convent story. With the tornado so close, and all that wind whipping around visibility was minimal, anything could have happened. Clark could have ran in, saved his father and blamed it on the wind or something. However, before all of that I did not understand why a middle aged man would even think to be a better retriever of a dog than a teenaged boy. Clark could have gotten the dog and been away from the car without letting on about his powers. To me it always seemed to be a contrived way to 1. Prove how much his father loved his son after the argument they just had in the car, and 2 a way to play out the inevitable death scene from the 79 superman movie.

It's pretty clear that Clarke can't actually superspeed run the way Faora can. The fact that they show Faora doing it, but not Superman is a clear implication.

Also, he was 16 I think? When Kent died? Im not sure, under 20. And has had a father who has probably not let him use his power much. The reason why Kent goes himself is obvious, if things go wrong underneath the bridge Clarke can't protect them and other people there, definitely not without giving away the whole shebang.

It's a fast situation that arrives very suddenly for them, Kent had to think fast, he can't risk sending clarke. It's an incredibly responsible choice, it's so freakin powerful to me.

The only thing that I personally had to think about was... it's a dog... I don't think I'd risk my life for my dog, sounds effed up to dog owners maybe. So my only kinda criticism would be would you really go that far in risking your life to get your dog? But knowing how deep the rtelation of people with their dog can go... I can still buy it. Especially because I think Jon was genuinely surprised that he didn't make it.

It's not like he was going "Jep, finally, I can show my son me dying". He's really grave when he gives Clarke that hand but he feels he took a risk and it went wrong. That's very human. And he chooses the better consequential route over his own life.

And people rip on Kent not being a good parent, he freakin showed his son THE most heroic act you can pull off.

But I will say I'd have preferred it if Martha got stuck, not the dog, because it makes it without question that somebody had to do something.

I will concede Niltusk that it's not beyond reproach nor beyond improvement. But the core of what the scene was meant to do worked a 100% for me.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

I would not we gone after the dog either, and if they were so in love with it why would they leave him in the car in the first place? Timmy always put Lassie first! But even so a teenager is naturally faster than a middle aged man. So even without his powers, Clark would be able yo fun from the car to the bridge without using super speed, but like you said I guess Mr. Kent was just being fatherly and trying to protect his family, and we know more about what Clark can do than he does.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Going after the dog at all is the only real point of contention here for me, basically. But Jon clearly was quite a headstrong character. I don't know, I still buy it, the whole thing, but I admit readily that going after the dog at all is debatable.

My main other critique of Man of Steel is the low amount of screen time Jon Kent gets. I think that's my biggest critique actually. That's why I'd really be bummed out if he isn't in MoS2.

I will say, my opinion of MoS2 will undoubtedly influence my critical opinion of MoS1. (And I disagree that that is invalid film criticism. Some say every film should stand on it's own but I think that's BS if it's intended as one part.)
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Going after the dog at all is the only real point of contention here for me, basically. But Jon clearly was quite a headstrong character. I don't know, I still buy it, the whole thing, but I admit readily that going after the dog at all is debatable.

My main other critique of Man of Steel is the low amount of screen time Jon Kent gets. I think that's my biggest critique actually. That's why I'd really be bummed out if he isn't in MoS2.

I will say, my opinion of MoS2 will undoubtedly influence my critical opinion of MoS1. (And I disagree that that is invalid film criticism. Some say every film should stand on it's own but I think that's BS if it's intended as one part.)

We have 2 cats I would move heaven and earth to save them if I have to. If people are critiquing the dog now, then yes Indiana Jones was a useless character that effected nothing about the outcome of Raiders. You got to learn not to over analyze films to death and also accept everyone is going to have different opinions. This Back n forth about MoS...your not going to change each other's opinions.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Is every discussion to be seen as an attempt to change someone else's opinion? If so, and opinion's will not be changed, then discussion is a useless thing and this thread, heck, the whole forum is useless.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Its interesting, and I know many of you will probably flame me for this, but in 79 when Jonathan Kent died of a heart attack it proved that Clark could not do everything, made him seem human. "All those things I can do, all those powers and I couldn't even save him." In Man of Steel Jonathan Kent died to protect his son from us.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Is every discussion to be seen as an attempt to change someone else's opinion? If so, and opinion's will not be changed, then discussion is a useless thing and this thread, heck, the whole forum is useless.
I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. Just trying to understand the movie better.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Its interesting, and I know many of you will probably flame me for this, but in 79 when Jonathan Kent died of a heart attack it proved that Clark could not do everything, made him seem human. "All those things I can do, all those powers and I couldn't even save him." In Man of Steel Jonathan Kent died to protect his son from us.

I think both work excellently for their respective films to be honest.

And @Morph yeah I still buy it just because I buy people loving their pets.:lol
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Its interesting, and I know many of you will probably flame me for this, but in 79 when Jonathan Kent died of a heart attack it proved that Clark could not do everything, made him seem human. "All those things I can do, all those powers and I couldn't even save him."

Pfft. I didn't buy that. He can spin the earth around to go back in time and kiss someone to whip their memory, he could have done something like rubbed Pa's chest really fast to get his heart going again!
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

(I removed it from my earlier post and put it here:)

Sorry, looks like I responded too quickly. Okay, I get that you felt that the tornado made Clark experience helplessness which was a good thing for his character. I agree that that's a good element to include in his character arc but as others have felt I didn't buy it the way they presented it on film. There are many ways he could have been in a helpless situation (his dad's heart attack in the original for one) but I didn't believe that Clark really WAS helpless so it made that scene strange and frustrating. But to give credit where it's due Cavill did a great job of selling the scene at least on the basis of his reaction. A nice bit of acting so it has that at least.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Pfft. I didn't buy that. He can spin the earth around to go back in time and kiss someone to whip their memory, he could have done something like rubbed Pa's chest really fast to get his heart going again!

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

Yeah there are many idiotic moments in the Donner movies, but despite all my love for MoS, I don't feel compelled to defend the tornado scene, a heart attack would have been better, without the dumb plot gizmos of the Donner movies though.
 
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Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Its interesting, and I know many of you will probably flame me for this, but in 79 when Jonathan Kent died of a heart attack it proved that Clark could not do everything, made him seem human. "All those things I can do, all those powers and I couldn't even save him." In Man of Steel Jonathan Kent died to protect his son from us.

STM lesson: No matter what, he can't save any human, none, no matter his powers.

MOS lesson: The reason given by Pa Kent for his suicide was crazy stupid, even Perry was saying the same stupid crap, humanity not ready. Oh bull crap. Human are 100% ready for a Superman.

If they were going to go with Pa Kent killing himself then they should've tied that to the main plot of the movie.

I would've went with the reason that no matter his powers, Jor-el lectures him that he should not interrupt the free will of humans unlike Krypton where there was no free will allowed.

So Pa Kent suicide was his free will choice to make and Superman should not stop it, no matter the pain of loss.

Free Will-y

Ah **** it, the movie just plain sucks.
 
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Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Zod should have killed Pa Kent like he did Jor-El. Then Ma Kent could have been like "Break his ****ing neck, Clark!". Then at the end of the film Clark decides not to kill Zod because he's Superman and Superman doesn't do those things.
 
Re: Batman vs. Superman (2016)

Eh, to be fair Jye, that first lesson sort of goes out the window considering he does end up saving Lois from death. :lol


STM or MOS?


If STM, everyone eventually bites the big one like Pa Kent, eventually Lois will die, nothing he can do about it other than spin the earth back everytime she dies.


If MOS, I'm assuming Superman was aware that it wasn't her free will to die in a fall.

Screw it, nothing can save that movie. :lol
 
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