Better Trilogy: Raimi's Spider-Man or Nolan's Dark Knight?

[Khev]

Nah I call major BS there.

Link to article please?

And i totally agree with the 2nd para above

It was in the second to the last Comic Buyer's Guide. David has an editorial at the end call "But I Digress" and he stated that a contact at DC or WB gave him the heads up on how the film was originally going to go if Nolan had his way. I'll see if I can find it online.

 

[intothevoid]

Nolan's batman films could only hope to be on the same level as The Lord of the Rings. It's not even close though if a poll was done with the twilight like fanbase of Nolan we'd get dominated. Hell, Nolan's batman films aren't as good as any of the HP films. Though, again it would get dominated in a poll.

Faulty logic.

By this logic if we had a Twilight versus Nolan flicks poll it should be roughly even.

Oh wait! There is a poll on the internetz! It's called IMDB. None of the Twilight films are anywhere near any of the Nolan Batman films.

https://www.imdb.com/chart/top

LOTR films have the highest average rating on IMDB as a trilogy. (8.76)
Followed by Nolan bats (8.6)

So i'll give you that, popular opinion wise LOTR is slightly ahead. However the highest ranked Nolan film (TDK, #8 of all time), is higher than the highest ranked LOTR film (ROTK, #9).

None of the Spidey films appear in the top 250
None of the X Men films appear in the top 250

Only one HP film appears and that too all the way down at #217

 

[intothevoid]

It was in the second to the last Comic Buyer's Guide. David has an editorial at the end call "But I Digress" and he stated that a contact at DC or WB gave him the heads up on how the film was originally going to go if Nolan had his way. I'll see if I can find it online.

Anyone can claim that, it's easy for a contact to have been misled too since the story was kept under such secrecy to the extend that false alternate ending were even pandied around in the inner circle.

Both Nolans and Goyer have consistently stated that the ending of their series had been in their mind for a long time. The story for TDKR was written backwards from the end. I don't see how the end could have been so fundamentally changed around.

Also - the entire story is built around Bruce starting the story with a death wish - thinking he had nothing left to live for so just waiting for the moment Batman is needed so he can go out there and die in the act. Alfred wants to make him realize that there IS a life beyond Batman for Bruce. That's the ENTIRE STORY ARC of TDKR. Bruce realizing this and then planning it and solidifying the Batman symbol and moving on with his own life.

If the ending had to be changed from Bruce dying to living then the ENTIRE STORY would have had to be changed as well to be consistent.

So, no way that is true.

 

[The Josh]

Faulty logic.

By this logic if we had a Twilight versus Nolan flicks poll it should be roughly even.

Of course you think it's faulty. From my experience watching the two fan bases their fervor is pretty damn close. It's level that its something to behold in a way.

Oh wait! There is a poll on the internetz! It's called IMDB. None of the Twilight films are anywhere near any of the Nolan Batman films.

Lets run a poll where just the two fan bases vote on which is better. Not where non fans can mix in. IMDB isn't gospel either as far as I'm concerned.

LOTR films have the highest average rating on IMDB as a trilogy. (8.76)
Followed by Nolan bats (8.6)

That doesn't surprise me. I firmly believe The Lord of the Ring are better films from top to bottom. Of course Jackson had some fantastic source material to work with.

So i'll give you that, popular opinion wise LOTR is slightly ahead. However the highest ranked Nolan film (TDK, #8 of all time), is higher than the highest ranked LOTR film (ROTK, #9).

This doesn't surprise me either. I do think as time goes on this will change as his films are forgotten to a degree.

Only one HP film appears and that too all the way down at #217

Once again not surprised but the HP films again IMO are better films from start to finish. That's not saying Nolan's batman films are bd because they're not but I don't think they're special either.

 

[intothevoid]

IMDB isn't gospel but its the best movie rating poll there is on the internet.

Why would you want a poll where only uber fans can vote? That defeats the purpose of a poll. A poll by definition is trying to gauge popular opinion. In order to do that you need a poll to be representative of the general population to get any sort of meaning out of it. IMDB is the closest thing there is to that out there at the moment.

It takes 'IMO' out of it and shows what popular opinions are like. Even critics don't factor in it. Also, it is weighted. So it's corrected for anomalies. For example if Twilight had 100,000 teenage girls rating it a 10/10, whereas 100,000 of the rest of the population demographic voted a 6 - the rest of the population will be weighted more heavily - because half of the general population is not teenage girls. Their proportion of the vote will be roughly normalized down to their proportion of the population.

Of course every individual will have their personal favourites and that's why I will always put Nolan bats above everything else the same as you will put LOTR above everything else.

 

[carbo-fation]

LOTR>>>Nolan Batman.

That doesn't mean Nolan's movies are crappy! I love them, but I still think the LOTR trilogy is on another level.

And major fail to people who are comparing Nolan's movie to Twilight or Raimi's Spiderman. You guys are either trolling or are simply stupid.

 

[Khev]

Also - the entire story is built around Bruce starting the story with a death wish - thinking he had nothing left to live for so just waiting for the moment Batman is needed so he can go out there and die in the act. Alfred wants to make him realize that there IS a life beyond Batman for Bruce. That's the ENTIRE STORY ARC of TDKR. Bruce realizing this and then planning it and solidifying the Batman symbol and moving on with his own life.

If the ending had to be changed from Bruce dying to living then the ENTIRE STORY would have had to be changed as well to be consistent.

Don't be silly. Bruce did lose his death wish regardless of whether the autopilot worked or not. Removing a nuclear bomb from the city at all costs /= wanting to commit suicide because he's depressed.

The story and arc is literally exactly the same. In one he makes peace with himself and his contribution to the city, has a nice smooch with Catwoman and lives happily ever after for a couple minutes and in the other he does the same and lives happily ever after for 50 years.

 

[intothevoid]

Don't be silly. Bruce did lose his death wish regardless of whether the autopilot worked or not. Removing a nuclear bomb from the city at all costs /= wanting to commit suicide because he's depressed.

The story and arc is literally exactly the same. In one he makes peace with himself and his contribution to the city, has a nice smooch with Catwoman and lives happily ever after for a couple minutes and in the other he does the same and lives happily ever after for 50 years.

Nope.

IMO you'd have to change 90% of Alfred's dialogue before he leaves Bruce for it to be consistent with Bruce dying at the end.

 

[thenammagazine]

Maybe if you lived under a rock.

He's right. Even Marvel considered Iron Man a marginal B-lister (leaning on C-lister).

Peter David stated in a recent article that Nolan had written Bruce to die in the explosion but WB veto'd it. So the whining about Bruce living happily ever after can at least stop being directed at Nolan. He was going to have him be Batman to his very last breath, not retire.

And honestly the whole "Batman quit, Batman cried, Spider-Man is emo and quit!" is about the dumbest criticism I've heard of a film and nothing I've ever come across outside of this website. Chastizing films because the hero loses his fight, gives up and then is inspired to come back with a vengeance, or lives happily ever after after saving the day. Yeah like a thousand different films haven't employed those themes across all genres. But many here get just as emo if their superheroes don't punch, punch, punch for 120 minutes without any inner turmoil at all.

Go watch Punisher: Warzone every other day and leave the real films to the grownups.

Punisher: Warzone is for the grownups, not children who like sissy superheroes who quit and have stupid moral codes that allow criminals to get caught, escape again, and continue killing innocents.

 

[ironwez20]

Maybe if you lived under a rock.

Dude nobody knew who he was until that movie. Maybe comic fans but not the GA. They were aware but...

 

[ironwez20]

Tha ****.......

 

[Maglor]

The difference is I don't "spread my cheer" in every thread about it.

I'm glad this Nolan Batman crap is over. It was fun while it lasted but the uberfans just kill it. Not sure who said it, but yeah, I'd say it's just as bad as the Twilight ****. Instead of adolescent girls being interested in vampires and werewolves though, you have grown men gushing over Batmen and Banes.

But you do spread the above kind of "cheer" quite liberally wherever you go.

Nah I call major BS there.

Link to article please?

And i totally agree with the 2nd para above

I to would like to see this link.

Anyone can claim that, it's easy for a contact to have been misled too since the story was kept under such secrecy to the extend that false alternate ending were even pandied around in the inner circle.

Both Nolans and Goyer have consistently stated that the ending of their series had been in their mind for a long time. The story for TDKR was written backwards from the end. I don't see how the end could have been so fundamentally changed around.

Also - the entire story is built around Bruce starting the story with a death wish - thinking he had nothing left to live for so just waiting for the moment Batman is needed so he can go out there and die in the act. Alfred wants to make him realize that there IS a life beyond Batman for Bruce. That's the ENTIRE STORY ARC of TDKR. Bruce realizing this and then planning it and solidifying the Batman symbol and moving on with his own life.

If the ending had to be changed from Bruce dying to living then the ENTIRE STORY would have had to be changed as well to be consistent.

So, no way that is true.

IMO you'd have to change 90% of Alfred's dialogue before he leaves Bruce for it to be consistent with Bruce dying at the end.

Exactly right.


In my opinion, the title itself even hinges on his retirement.


How does the Dark Knight "rise"?

1) He rises from the pit.
2) He rises to the challenge of meeting Bane again.
3) The Dark Knight the man, Bruce Wayne, truly rises when he realizes what he needs to really find happiness and peace. As a grown-ass man, he puts aside his teen angst, realizing it will fix nothing.
4) The Dark Knight the symbol rises again as Blake takes up the cape and cowl.

The title works on at least 4 levels, but the most important one falls away if Batman dies as Batman.

Punisher: Warzone is for the grownups, not children who like sissy superheroes who quit and have stupid moral codes that allow criminals to get caught, escape again, and continue killing innocents.

 

[The Josh]

IMDB isn't gospel but its the best movie rating poll there is on the internet.

Why would you want a poll where only uber fans can vote? That defeats the purpose of a poll. A poll by definition is trying to gauge popular opinion. In order to do that you need a poll to be representative of the general population to get any sort of meaning out of it. IMDB is the closest thing there is to that out there at the moment.

It takes 'IMO' out of it and shows what popular opinions are like. Even critics don't factor in it. Also, it is weighted. So it's corrected for anomalies. For example if Twilight had 100,000 teenage girls rating it a 10/10, whereas 100,000 of the rest of the population demographic voted a 6 - the rest of the population will be weighted more heavily - because half of the general population is not teenage girls. Their proportion of the vote will be roughly normalized down to their proportion of the population.

Of course every individual will have their personal favourites and that's why I will always put Nolan bats above everything else the same as you will put LOTR above everything else.

I'd like to see an uber fan battle to who can get out the vote. Thing is with any poll it can be swayed to not be so clean and clear.

Of course pov comes into play.

 

[Khev]

Nope.

IMO you'd have to change 90% of Alfred's dialogue before he leaves Bruce for it to be consistent with Bruce dying at the end.

In your opinion. Doesn't make it so. So in your opinion Bruce finds peace, becomes immortal and lives forever? No. He's still gonna die. Either in the cowl or on a beach somewhere.

What Alfred did serve, which certainly wouldn't have had to be changed, is a counterpoint to John Blake and others who didn't feel that a man in Bruce's position was doing enough. Quitting for 8 years and letting orphanages lose their funding were BAD choices. Giving his life would have made up for those much more than donating a mansion that no longer meant anything to him.

Alfred is like the wife who cries that the hero (whether super, police, fireman, whatever) shouldn't go out and risk his life but the hero does it anyway because he believes it's the right thing to do. Having a close person upset and begging to have the hero get out of the line of fire doesn't demand that the hero retire in order to have a satisfying arc.

 

[The Josh]

He's right. Even Marvel considered Iron Man a marginal B-lister (leaning on C-lister).

Dude nobody knew who he was until that movie. Maybe comic fans but not the GA. They were aware but...

I agree he was a b lister but I don't think it's close to accurate that people outside of comic fans knew who he was. That being said it doesn't mean a dang thing now as he's know for sure.

 

[Adolfo]

LOTR(except for about 5 minutes or so worth of footage)>Nolan Batman(esp BB+TDK)>All superhero trilogies period(for now at least)

 

[Adolfo]

In your opinion. Doesn't make it so.

Alfred is like the wife who cries that the hero (whether super, police, fireman, whatever) shouldn't go out and risk his life but the hero does it anyway because he believes it's the right thing to do. Having a close person upset and begging to have the hero get out of the line of fire doesn't demand that the hero retire in order to have a satisfying arc.

Why not?...everybodys different...just because it's not what you would do or not what you wanted to be shown on the big screen?

 

[Khev]

Why not?...

Why not what?

 

[Adolfo]

In your opinion. Doesn't make it so. So in your opinion Bruce finds peace, becomes immortal and lives forever?

I have no clue how you came to this

 

[Adolfo]

Why not what?

So a guy cant retire?