Dear nash.....

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gideon said:
from jlcmsu



Based on the youthfulness of your photo I trust that you never were lucky enough to see either Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell or Oscar Robertson play the game at their peak?

I am not even sure that I would call Jordan the best player in the last thirty years. He certainly was in a class by himself. But I would place the talents of both Ervin Johnson and Larry Bird right up there with him. Jordan may have been a more excellent individual player with unequaled personal skills while Johnson and Bird were consumate team players who could make almost anyone on their team play to their upmost best.

And when you say "the game" are you limiting this to the professional game? Jordan in college was a good player but nothing that would even place him in the top 25 of all time. On the other hand, I have never seen the likes of Lew Alcindor (the name he played under in college), Bill Walton or David Thompson as college players since those wonderful days.

These type of discussion are never solved - typical bar banter - but they are fun if everyone has an open mind.

I would agree that Jordan is the best one on one player seen in the last thirty years. But it is virtually impossible to compare his skill set with other players whose position demanded a completely different skill set.


No never saw them play in person. I love Bill Russell though and IMO he's the second best ever. I'd take him as my center every day. However, I will stand by the fact Jordan is the best player ever. Even the likes of Magic, Bird, Russell, etc have all said MJ is the best ever. The guys talent, stats, and ability to make his team better than it really says it all.
 
jlcmsu ... I did see all those people in their prime --- there has never been an individual player who could completely dominate both the game and any other player on the court as did Wilt Chamberlain. Today, when a player manages to score 50 points in a game, its headlines in sports sections around the nation. Chamberlain averaged 50 for an entire season. Averaged 50 PPG. Today when a player gets 20 rebounds its big news on ESPN. Wilt once grabbed 55 in one game. Nobody today could ever average in one year what he did in an entire career.

Glad to see you love Bill Russell. He was simply the winningest player ever to play. Nobody could win a game like Russell - especially championship games where he never lost.

Answer me one question about Larry Bird if you will be so kind. Name me any NBA player who played with him - or since - that has higher career averages than Bird in all three major categories of points, rebounds and assists per game.
 
Bannister - Hershey PA. And they called Daryll Dawkins "Chocolate Thunder" :lol . The Hershey company should have signed him to a lifetime endorsment contract just for that event happening in their company town.
 
gideon said:
Bannister - Hershey PA. And they called Daryll Dawkins "Chocolate Thunder" :lol . The Hershey company should have signed him to a lifetime endorsment contract just for that event happening in their company town.
:rock:rock:rock
I never saw Dawkins play but I heard that guy was a beast.
 
IMO its tough to compare the talent levels of players from different eras of the game.
The level of that player's on court competition could vary greatly.

Kind of like "could Babe Ruth smash the number of homeruns in his prime if he was hitting against the Big Unit in his prime?"

but youre right. its still fun to debate.
 
Wilt was awesome. No doubts about that but he played in an age where there where virtually zero 7ft players. Honestly, he was that ages Shaq. I'd take Russell over Wilt everyday and twice on Sunday. Jordan was 100x better. Jordan dominated on both ends and dominated at the guard position. Something much harder to do than at the post.

Bird had great numbers. No aruging that I mean 24/10/6 are super. I'm not saying Bird isn't very good because I like Bird but even he said Jordan was the best. Also at one point he even said God was just disguised as MJ.
 
jlcmsu said:
Jordan dominated on both ends and dominated at the guard position. Something much harder to do than at the post.

I disagree, why would dominating at the guard position be harder to do than at the post? Jordan is what 6'8? That is HUGE for a guard, that is like Terrell Owens playing WR when he has the size of a linebacker.

Dominating at the post, youre going up against guys at least your size if not bigger. Whenever people guard Jordan it's more than always a mismatch because hes so tall and if you put the double team on him, he had the supporting cast to take advantage of that.
 
I love these discussions, era vs era and all that jazz.

Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest player ever to tie up a pair of sneakers.

You talk about Russell vs Chamberlain
Well Russell had double and triple teams to help him guard Chamberlain while Wilt guarded Russell one on one.

You talk about stats
Wilt lead the league in assists in 1968.
He LEAD THE LEAGUE IN ASSISTS!!!
He was MVP and Rookie of the Year, in the same year, 1960.

You talk about competition
Wilt played against every center in the Hall Of Fame except one, Bill Walton.
Just because a guy is 7 feet tall doesn't mean he is good. Dennis Rodman was 6'8" and Charles Barkley was 6'6" yet they didn't seem to have any problems playing the big guys.

You talk about dominating the game on both sides of the court
They changed the rules to STOP Chamberlain
Widening the lane
3 second rule
Crossing the free throw line, Wilt could dunk from the free throw line
Dunking was outlawed in college basketball because of Chamberlain

The NBA changed the rules to HELP Jordan dominate
The hand check rule
I can't blame anyone for calling Jordan the best ever,
Jordan did dominate the league, retired then came back and dominated again. Just, not that 3rd time around, but oh well.

Also when the NBA tells you Jordan is the greatest of all-time it is hard to question it.

Just some food for thought.
 
nash said:
I disagree, why would dominating at the guard position be harder to do than at the post? Jordan is what 6'8? That is HUGE for a guard, that is like Terrell Owens playing WR when he has the size of a linebacker.

Dominating at the post, youre going up against guys at least your size if not bigger. Whenever people guard Jordan it's more than always a mismatch because hes so tall and if you put the double team on him, he had the supporting cast to take advantage of that.

He was 6'6" actually.

Nash you ever played basketball? It's much easier for post players to dominate than a guard. They're always taller and bigger than guards. A guy like Shaq should be able to dominate a game much easier than say his buddy DWade.

Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Oscar, etc. all great players but I would not take a single one ahead of MJ. If I had to have someone play in a game that would determine if I lived or died. I would take MJ every time.
 
MJ is the man

until he made that silly theme park and spent too much time with little kiddies. :monkey4

mj2002.jpg
 
On changing the game for a player..... picco is 100% correct .... the league changed the rules so that Wilt could not dominate - and he did anyways. The only other time I remember that happening was in college when they banned the dunk for the one most feared individual entering college and that was Lew Alcindor. Kareem has said many times that college officials did him a favor by banning the dunk because it forced him to develop other shots which made him an all around force within 12 feet of the basket.

I also think that the NBA made some serious changes to accomodate Jordan and others. One would be how they allow that quick first step without putting the ball on the floor. That used to be travelling and you caused a turnover. But then they allowed it and the game has never been the same. Also the way players carry the ball constantly. It used to be that your hand had to be on top of the ball and you could not palm it to suspend the ball for even a mili-second. Then they allowed the hand to the side of the ball and now its carried all the time without a whistle. The result of both of these things was the clear out - where one player stood on one side of the court while the other four pretended he had the flu. When you allow that first step plus carrying the ball you give a tremendous advantage to the big gaurds like Jordan.

Bannister - Dawkins was just not very good. He was 320 pounds and was a force of nature but his skills were terrible. He simply never developed into anything but a brute. Great advertisement for going to college and learning how to properly play the game. He was funny and a character and when Philly rotated three centers for a few years with Harvey Catchings, Caldwell Jones and Dawkins, it gave them 17 fouls to give.

Occulum has a great point about different eras being hard to compare. I agree with that 100%. But you then have to look at the rule changes to help explain that. The truly great players like Wilt, Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Kareem, Bird, Jordan, Magic, could play at any time against anyone because they were smart people who could have adjusted their game. The so called "pure athlete" who depends more on quickness and jumping ability is a creation of todays game and probably would be no big deal in the NBA of the Fifties or the Sixties because it was a very fundamental league. Pure shooters could have played at any time - especially years ago where it was easy to get off a jumpshot.

I always thought that the absolute pinnacle of the game was in the late 1970's through the early 90's. The Dream Team years. Reason: Basketball started as a very fundamental team game for white guys. Three of four basic plays like the give and go, the pick and roll, and a few others were the entire game. ( Look at the two best coahces in that era - Wooden in college and Red Auerbach in the pros. John Wooden in college, both did not call plays or do much in the way of modern coaching. They simply had a handful of very basic plays and taught them in practice then let the players play the game. Wooden said almost nothing in a game and Auerbach used most of his energy working the refs to gain and extra point or two. )

The game changed for the better when the African American players became dominant and brought a new style, a new approach and new skill sets with them. But many people forget than people like Oscar Robertson and Julius Erving and Connie Hawkins were coached by very fundamentalists and were themselves excellent fundamental players. They combined both worlds. You could say that Larry Bird and Pete Maravich did the opposite in that they stole from the Black game to go with their fundamentals.... (although Maravich was not as fundamentally as strong as Bird).

In the Dream Team era you had a perfect blending of both worlds - the white fundamental game and the black freelance ballet. It was beauty to behold.
You hardly see than combination anymore except on rare nights where Phoenix plays Dallas.

Shaq only has Hall of Fame numbers because the League made a decision to showcase him early on and allow him to use his massive body in close to the basket. Watch old films of Wilt and compare what they allowed him to do as opposed to what they allow Shaq. Its a damn joke. Wilt could have scored 100 on most night with the Shaq rules. By the way- when he came into the league Shaq got murdered by double teams and he had no idea what to do with the ball. They hired Bill Walton to be his private tutor in training camp and he mastered the handling of the double team hitting the open man. Walton was the best passing center who played with his back to the basket that I have ever seen. Its a shame what happened with his feet. The only college center I ever saw that was any better was Alcindor --- and look how far he went.
 
gideon said:
On changing the game for a player..... picco is 100% correct .... the league changed the rules so that Wilt could not dominate - and he did anyways. The only other time I remember that happening was in college when they banned the dunk for the one most feared individual entering college and that was Lew Alcindor. Kareem has said many times that college officials did him a favor by banning the dunk because it forced him to develop other shots which made him an all around force within 12 feet of the basket.

I also think that the NBA made some serious changes to accomodate Jordan and others. One would be how they allow that quick first step without putting the ball on the floor. That used to be travelling and you caused a turnover. But then they allowed it and the game has never been the same. Also the way players carry the ball constantly. It used to be that your hand had to be on top of the ball and you could not palm it to suspend the ball for even a mili-second. Then they allowed the hand to the side of the ball and now its carried all the time without a whistle. The result of both of these things was the clear out - where one player stood on one side of the court while the other four pretended he had the flu. When you allow that first step plus carrying the ball you give a tremendous advantage to the big gaurds like Jordan.

Bannister - Dawkins was just not very good. He was 320 pounds and was a force of nature but his skills were terrible. He simply never developed into anything but a brute. Great advertisement for going to college and learning how to properly play the game. He was funny and a character and when Philly rotated three centers for a few years with Harvey Catchings, Caldwell Jones and Dawkins, it gave them 17 fouls to give.

Occulum has a great point about different eras being hard to compare. I agree with that 100%. But you then have to look at the rule changes to help explain that. The truly great players like Wilt, Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Kareem, Bird, Jordan, Magic, could play at any time against anyone because they were smart people who could have adjusted their game. The so called "pure athlete" who depends more on quickness and jumping ability is a creation of todays game and probably would be no big deal in the NBA of the Fifties or the Sixties because it was a very fundamental league. Pure shooters could have played at any time - especially years ago where it was easy to get off a jumpshot.

I always thought that the absolute pinnacle of the game was in the late 1970's through the early 90's. The Dream Team years. Reason: Basketball started as a very fundamental team game for white guys. Three of four basic plays like the give and go, the pick and roll, and a few others were the entire game. ( Look at the two best coahces in that era - Wooden in college and Red Auerbach in the pros. John Wooden in college, both did not call plays or do much in the way of modern coaching. They simply had a handful of very basic plays and taught them in practice then let the players play the game. Wooden said almost nothing in a game and Auerbach used most of his energy working the refs to gain and extra point or two. )

The game changed for the better when the African American players became dominant and brought a new style, a new approach and new skill sets with them. But many people forget than people like Oscar Robertson and Julius Erving and Connie Hawkins were coached by very fundamentalists and were themselves excellent fundamental players. They combined both worlds. You could say that Larry Bird and Pete Maravich did the opposite in that they stole from the Black game to go with their fundamentals.... (although Maravich was not as fundamentally as strong as Bird).

In the Dream Team era you had a perfect blending of both worlds - the white fundamental game and the black freelance ballet. It was beauty to behold.
You hardly see than combination anymore except on rare nights where Phoenix plays Dallas.

Shaq only has Hall of Fame numbers because the League made a decision to showcase him early on and allow him to use his massive body in close to the basket. Watch old films of Wilt and compare what they allowed him to do as opposed to what they allow Shaq. Its a damn joke. Wilt could have scored 100 on most night with the Shaq rules. By the way- when he came into the league Shaq got murdered by double teams and he had no idea what to do with the ball. They hired Bill Walton to be his private tutor in training camp and he mastered the handling of the double team hitting the open man. Walton was the best passing center who played with his back to the basket that I have ever seen. Its a shame what happened with his feet. The only college center I ever saw that was any better was Alcindor --- and look how far he went.

I was about to say all that I swear. :slap
 
Josh . . .is Chicago the only game in town for people from Missouri?
 
Radagaster said:
Josh . . .is Chicago the only game in town for people from Missouri?

Actually the Pacers in Indiana are probably a little closer than the Bulls. Right now the Hornets are playing some games in OKC. Then you have the teams in Tx and the Bulls in Ill. So you have teams to pick from but nothing in Kansas City.

My love for the Bulls came from a little kid and I just happened to see the Bulls playing on TV in a restaurant.
 
gideon said:
On changing the game for a player..... picco is 100% correct .... the league changed the rules so that Wilt could not dominate - and he did anyways. The only other time I remember that happening was in college when they banned the dunk for the one most feared individual entering college and that was Lew Alcindor. Kareem has said many times that college officials did him a favor by banning the dunk because it forced him to develop other shots which made him an all around force within 12 feet of the basket.

I also think that the NBA made some serious changes to accomodate Jordan and others. One would be how they allow that quick first step without putting the ball on the floor. That used to be travelling and you caused a turnover. But then they allowed it and the game has never been the same. Also the way players carry the ball constantly. It used to be that your hand had to be on top of the ball and you could not palm it to suspend the ball for even a mili-second. Then they allowed the hand to the side of the ball and now its carried all the time without a whistle. The result of both of these things was the clear out - where one player stood on one side of the court while the other four pretended he had the flu. When you allow that first step plus carrying the ball you give a tremendous advantage to the big gaurds like Jordan.

Bannister - Dawkins was just not very good. He was 320 pounds and was a force of nature but his skills were terrible. He simply never developed into anything but a brute. Great advertisement for going to college and learning how to properly play the game. He was funny and a character and when Philly rotated three centers for a few years with Harvey Catchings, Caldwell Jones and Dawkins, it gave them 17 fouls to give.

Occulum has a great point about different eras being hard to compare. I agree with that 100%. But you then have to look at the rule changes to help explain that. The truly great players like Wilt, Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Kareem, Bird, Jordan, Magic, could play at any time against anyone because they were smart people who could have adjusted their game. The so called "pure athlete" who depends more on quickness and jumping ability is a creation of todays game and probably would be no big deal in the NBA of the Fifties or the Sixties because it was a very fundamental league. Pure shooters could have played at any time - especially years ago where it was easy to get off a jumpshot.

I always thought that the absolute pinnacle of the game was in the late 1970's through the early 90's. The Dream Team years. Reason: Basketball started as a very fundamental team game for white guys. Three of four basic plays like the give and go, the pick and roll, and a few others were the entire game. ( Look at the two best coahces in that era - Wooden in college and Red Auerbach in the pros. John Wooden in college, both did not call plays or do much in the way of modern coaching. They simply had a handful of very basic plays and taught them in practice then let the players play the game. Wooden said almost nothing in a game and Auerbach used most of his energy working the refs to gain and extra point or two. )

The game changed for the better when the African American players became dominant and brought a new style, a new approach and new skill sets with them. But many people forget than people like Oscar Robertson and Julius Erving and Connie Hawkins were coached by very fundamentalists and were themselves excellent fundamental players. They combined both worlds. You could say that Larry Bird and Pete Maravich did the opposite in that they stole from the Black game to go with their fundamentals.... (although Maravich was not as fundamentally as strong as Bird).

In the Dream Team era you had a perfect blending of both worlds - the white fundamental game and the black freelance ballet. It was beauty to behold.
You hardly see than combination anymore except on rare nights where Phoenix plays Dallas.

Shaq only has Hall of Fame numbers because the League made a decision to showcase him early on and allow him to use his massive body in close to the basket. Watch old films of Wilt and compare what they allowed him to do as opposed to what they allow Shaq. Its a damn joke. Wilt could have scored 100 on most night with the Shaq rules. By the way- when he came into the league Shaq got murdered by double teams and he had no idea what to do with the ball. They hired Bill Walton to be his private tutor in training camp and he mastered the handling of the double team hitting the open man. Walton was the best passing center who played with his back to the basket that I have ever seen. Its a shame what happened with his feet. The only college center I ever saw that was any better was Alcindor --- and look how far he went.
The sad thing about Shaq is if that guy ever developed some shooting skills, he probably would have been unstoppable.
 
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