Doctor Who - Spoilers!

[ProgMatinee]

I'm going to miss Tennant. For me he's been far and away more enjoyable than Ecchelston who was too surly and dark.

 

[William Shatners Toupee]

But let's face it - much of the classic series was the same way. At least here we have conversion as an essential component of the plan and the Cybermen as a small band of desperate survivors..

Being 2008 I expect better writing than that. I don't despise Nu-Who, but it's unevenness mystifies me. Treating Daleks and Cybermen like cartoons isn't the type of writing I would expect for a modern franchise. I would expect them to be more heavily developed in stories now-a-days. The way the Daleks had such a great re-introduction in DALEK was SO neccessary, yet immediately kept having their empire consistantly rebuilt and destroyed with a sneeze was degrading to their fearsomeness as characters. They needed to continue being shown as strong of characters. We need to be shown why these characters are the cornerstones of the Who universe and I'd prefer deeper stories than breezy ones. Being a "family" show is no excuse to ever have sub-par or less sophisticated writing. To me, it should mean toned down violence (of a 2008 standard) and sexual innuendo.

If the story was handled serious, and say like a horror movie
...it would have half the ratings and a corresponding budget and episode count. As much as I love the Hinchcliffe stuff, we're never going to see that again as mainstream entertainment. Doctor Who deserves the biggest audience it can get and that means taking a family approach..

I would consider BLINK horror, and that seemed to win awards and favor, so would disagree.

They need a conversion factory. Why not make it mobile? It's functionally a moving tower yet I doubt anyone would be complaining about the distance to the ground if it were literally a Victorian tower. The Cybermen in this story have been unable to complete a conversion thanks to limited technology (hence the shades) so it makes sense to focus all their efforts on a Cyber King mobile (and heavily defended) factory rather than try to secure a warehouse etc.

If the Cybermen were unable to complete a conversion, a walking Cyber-conversion factory seems kind of pointless, doesn't it? The Cybermen were at no point threatened by the populace even slightly to need a walking fortress. In that era they were as safe as they could possible be where they were. Seems a very wasted effort (other than the obvious sheer joy of trashing a victorian town in a giant robot, a reason which needs no defending EVER, but then, the Cybermen have no emotions to experience that joy. Maybe they are programmed to just know trashing a town in a giant robot is "cool"?).

 

[barbelith]

Christmas Day TV ratings

1.Wallace & Gromit (14.3 million)
2.Doctor Who (11.7 million)

The "mighty" Nu-Who has been beaten by some lumps of plasticine

The ratings are also down on last years special which got something like 13.4 million. Could the bubble be starting to burst?

I'm not sure how being number two on Christmas Day is bad. Voyage of the Damned had Kylie so its ratings boost is an expected blip. If you're seriously complaining about 11.7 million then I'm afraid it throws a lot of your complaints into question (especially when that's higher than every other episode to date bar last year's Christmas special).

What exactly is it about the series that makes you think it's somehow magically worse than Timelash and that 11.7 million viewers is something to sneeze at?

 

[ProgMatinee]

I think its possible to over analyse this stuff. To ask why the Cybermen do something is like asking why the mine shaft in Temple of Doom had so many sharp curves and hills in the track. Its unnecessary, but it gives you one hell of a ride.

 

[barbelith]

The effects and action scenes are the only thing the revived show does better which considering the advances in technology and vastly increased budget is to be expected.

I can count on one hand the number of times the original series did anything with real emotion or solid character development. I don't think the new series is "better" or "worse" but it definitely raised the bar in that department. There is nothing like the final scene of The End of the World in the original series and those moments are welcome additions. I do think the original series was far more imaginative than the new series.

Not to bash anyone's favorite, but especially the Tom Baker episodes have been REALLY unimpressive for a large part.

Tom Baker acts brilliantly in his first three seasons. He's playing a character and making subtle choices in performance that are easily the equal of anything in the new series. The problems set in when he decided he was no longer playing a character but was the character and the series became The Tom Baker Show. Which I still love to pieces, but for completely different reasons. But there is no "Tom Baker" in The Hand of Fear, for example. He completely vanishes into the role.

You want to be heard, but not listened to. You want to speak your mind and say it sucks but won't take the time to say why and how.

I noticed that too.

I don't despise Nu-Who, but it's unevenness mystifies me.

I agree. The last five episodes have been written by RTD and they're all over the map in terms of script quality. This week's was fine; Midnight was superb and Journey's End was only a story by the slightest technicality.

Treating Daleks and Cybermen like cartoons isn't the type of writing I would expect for a modern franchise. I would expect them to be more heavily developed in stories now-a-days.

I think they have been. The Daleks especially have had a constant arc ever since the Cult of Skaro was introduced - and it's one that makes sense and builds in a logical way through The Stolen Earth. Now as it happens I dislike their story, but I can't deny the production team have given it careful thought. The Cybermen meanwhile have been dreadful in the new series, but I thought the Christmas episode went some way toward rectifying that, especially since they were directly integrated into their setting in a way that ties directly in to what the Cybermen are supposed to be about.

The problem in this sense is that the story isn't "about" the Cybermen. It's "about" Jackson Lake and so of course they're going to get short thrift. I think that's all right for a Christmas romp but of course you may differ.

The way the Daleks had such a great re-introduction in DALEK was SO neccessary, yet immediately kept having their empire consistantly rebuilt and destroyed with a sneeze was degrading to their fearsomeness as characters.

I completely agree. This could have been avoided if RTD had left Earth more often and dealt with the Daleks as an intergalactic threat. Especially if the Doctor barely defeats a local bunch of Daleks each time, so that their menace is preserved.

I would consider BLINK horror, and that seemed to win awards and favor, so would disagree.

There's no blood in Blink and the only person who dies does so of old age. It's definitely creepy and I would like to see Doctor Who take a similar tone. But we can also see a pattern in the ratings, where Blink doesn't do nearly as well as you'd think. Nor the closest other "horror" episode The Empty Child. I don't know that I'd make a direct correlation but when you consider audiences appear to love the lighter stories you can certainly understand why the production team heads in that direction.

If the Cybermen were unable to complete a conversion, a walking Cyber-conversion factory seems kind of pointless, doesn't it?

Not at all - they're building a facility to enable conversion.

The Cybermen were at no point threatened by the populace even slightly to need a walking fortress. In that era they were as safe as they could possible be where they were.

There seemed to be only about six of them. Not under threat one by one but I would imagine a concerted effort by even a Victorian military could take care of them if they were detected. Plus as you say, we get to see a giant clockwork robot trashing London. I admit my passes are fairly arbitrary, but I'm giving one to The Next Doctor. (Just for comparison's sake I absolutely hated the series four finale aside from the final scenes with Donna.)

 

[barbelith]

I think its possible to over analyse this stuff.

Does that mean I can stop trying to figure out how the Cybermen knew the proper order of the Doctor's incarnations, and why no future Doctors were shown?

 

[bcm77]

LOL. Fair enough, just thought you'd enjoy carrying on a conversation to give basis for why you hate everything about the new show because you certainly throw the opinion about at every chance. But if you don't want to take that opportunity, fine be that way.

Typical forum mentality. You want to be heard, but not listened to. You want to speak your mind and say it sucks but won't take the time to say why and how... LOL.

Maybe I don't overanalyse my reasons for liking the Classic era much more than Nu-Who and therefore don't need to break things down to every individual aspect the way others do.

Bottom line is I find the best Classic stories more entertaining and Doctor's 2-4 much more intresting for the simple reason they have some depth to their character.
With Tom Baker in particular the character clearly evolved during his run and to me watching that kind of progression is much more intresting than a Doctor who does the exact same schtick week after week like we have now.

And I don't hate everything about Nu-Who,it's from "The Runaway Bride" onwards that I feel things have gone downhill.

 

[Kabukiman]

Just finished watching "The Next Doctor" Not the best, but not the worst. Probably 6 on a scale of 10.

I would've loved to see Jackson as the new companion, but knew that wasn't going to happen once

Spoiler

he found his son

As for the classic vs. nu business, I've just resigned to the fact that everybody has different tastes and it's iimpossible to please everybody all of the time. I'm just glad that the story of the Doctor has been going for almost 50 years strong and has offered something for all of us in that run.

 

[pixletwin]

I think pretty much whats wrong with RTD's DW is that it tries to cram in too much in too short a space of time. A show like Doctor Who might be better served returning to the older format but still keeping some of the features of the new show.

Still I love both old and new. Both have strengths and both have weaknesses I can over look because I love the strengths so much.

 

[bcm77]

A show like Doctor Who might be better served returning to the older format but still keeping some of the features of the new show.

This is what I'd want to see.
Dropping all the one offs and Doctor Where? episodes for a return to 4 or 6 part stories would allow for proper development of supporting characters and also provide additional time for the main character to evolve.

Nu-Who's single greatest asset is it's visuals so keep those,hire a producer that doesn't have a dubious agenda to push at audiences,some decent writers and above all else an actor that can portray the Doctor on a variety of emotional levels equally well and maybe the show could surpass the 2nd-4th Doctor eras for quality.

Sadly with an even bigger egomaniac set to replace RTD the only thing I see happening is more of the same crap that's been served up for the last 2 years.

 

[Blackhole]

I just want to see an episode where Mondas Cybermen meet/fight the Cybusmen...

That would be so cool...

 

[barbelith]

I think pretty much whats wrong with RTD's DW is that it tries to cram in too much in too short a space of time.

I think its biggest weaknesses are its schizoid tone and its WTF endings. The time issue is really a script editing issue. They've really gotten the hang of the 45 minute format recently.

Still I love both old and new. Both have strengths and both have weaknesses I can over look because I love the strengths so much.

I'm the same way. I don't think I could pick one over the other. Their strengths and weaknesses are different and I like to imagine a day when Doctor Who has the strengths of both and the weaknesses of neither.

Dropping all the one offs and Doctor Where? episodes for a return to 4 or 6 part stories would

...quickly kill the show, not least because there is no real market for 25 minute drama anymore. We would also be back in the days of four stories per year rather than the current nine or so, which really kills off a lot of the series' appeal and momentum.

And the "Doctor light" episodes aren't going anywhere if you want 14 episodes per year. The shooting schedule requires them or there's no Christmas special. And to be honest all three have been pretty great so far. I'd much rather Love & Monsters and Blink and Turn Left be part of the Doctor Who experience than not.

allow for proper development of supporting characters and also provide additional time for the main character to evolve.

But let's be honest - this virtually never happened in the original series and so this is something of a pointless straw man argument.

Sadly with an even bigger egomaniac set to replace RTD the only thing I see happening is more of the same crap that's been served up for the last 2 years.

SM of course is widely regarded as the guy who's consistently nailed modern Doctor Who and has more awards than his boss to show for it. Indubitably an egomaniac but also a brilliant scriptwriter who definitely has the chops to keep the show top of the charts. I don't say this with relish, but I'm glad your perspective is rare.

 

[William Shatners Toupee]

I also can't wait for the return of the Mondas Cybermen someday as well.
Whether they fight the Cybus versions or integrate, I would love a Mondas version Tomb to be opened with older models shown in Cryo. That would rock!

I have to say I also look forward to a day we have a returning enemy that's not "almost on the verge of being wiped out" all the time. Let the Cybermen grow strong. Let the Daleks go strong. I guess it goes back into developing them more as fearsome enemies.

I am very excited about Moffet coming on board. I have felt the Doctor needed to be a stronger personality/influence in current stories, and Moffet has said he wants him to be more of a investigator, which to me harkens into that more. To me that also insinuates some deeper plots, which also makes me happy.

 

[bcm77]

Barbelith,
I would gladly take less stories per series if it meant less drivel like "Love & Monsters","Blink" & "Midnight" and besides,what's stopping the BBC from altering the production schedules to fit the old school format?

And as for your not taking any relish over my views on Steven Moffatt (and Nu-Who in general) being the minority are you quite sure about that as you seem to spend enough time ripping my posts apart?

Either way I don't really give a ^^^^,as far as I'm concerned Nu-Who ended with "Doomsday" and it's going to take something pretty damn special to convince me to take the time to watch it again and I certainly won't be doing so whilst Moffatt is in charge.

 

[William Shatners Toupee]

I would gladly take less stories per series if it meant less drivel like "Love & Monsters","Blink" & "Midnight" which were all a waste of time.

AAAAHH! Bro, you really don't like BLINK? I think it's one of the best Who eps ever (Nu and classic combined). Did you watch it all the way through?

 

[barbelith]

I also can't wait for the return of the Mondas Cybermen someday as well.

Me too. Although the Cybermen in The Next Doctor might as well have been ours. I hope that when we do get the real thing the script takes effort to mark them out as different - more aggressive, more powerful, a feared galactic menace.

I have to say I also look forward to a day we have a returning enemy that's not "almost on the verge of being wiped out" all the time.

I completely agree. The TARDIS can go anywhere and threats can be localized. I think this is one of RTD's biggest misfires.

I am very excited about Moffet coming on board. I have felt the Doctor needed to be a stronger personality/influence in current stories, and Moffet has said he wants him to be more of a investigator, which to me harkens into that more.

Based on his previous scripts, I think we'll get a stronger investigator with perhaps even greater romantic inclinations and a continued penchant for magic wand endings.

I would gladly take less stories per series if it meant less drivel like "Love & Monsters","Blink" & "Midnight"

I think those are great stories that add a lot to Doctor Who. They all try something new, and that makes me wonder if what you're really after is a slavish recreation of whatever Doctor Who you watched as a youth?

what's stopping the BBC from altering the production schedules to fit the old school format?

The realities of modern television. There is no international market for 25 minute drama, which has a huge impact on the economics of the thing. The BBC also has to keep an eye on ratings and expecting modern audiences to follow a single story for a month instead of presenting four "first nights" a month would be an incredible gamble.

And as for your not taking any relish over my views on Steven Moffatt (and Nu-Who in general) being the minority are you quite sure about that as you seem to spend enough time ripping my posts apart?

I'm not ripping your posts apart. You've already made it quite clear you're not interested in having a conversation or supporting your claims in any way, so I really do wonder why you continue to post so loudly.

Either way I don't really give a ^^^^,as far as I'm concerned Nu-Who ended with "Doomsday" and it's going to take something pretty damn special to convince me to take the time to watch it again and I certainly won't be doing so whilst Moffatt is in charge.

I'm sure the juggernaut ratings will miss you. But by all means keep publicly moaning about it in Doctor Who threads two years later.

 

[bcm77]

AAAAHH! Bro, you really don't like BLINK? I think it's one of the best Who eps ever (Nu and classic combined). Did you watch it all the way through?

As far as I'm concerned "Blink" is only outdone by "Love & Monsters" as the worst Nu-Who story and it's no small coincidence that both are Doctor Where? episodes.

I don't care what BS about the production schedules is given as an excuse for these stories I think it's pretty stupid having an episode where the main protagonist,the one that the show is named after is absent for most of it and we are instead supposed to watch a load of random characters who've never been seen before.

Had the story been a 3-parter and the Doctor gone missing for the second part it would have made more sense but the way it was anyone who missed the start could have been left wondering if they'd got the right channel because it certainly didn't feel like a typical Doctor Who episode.

In fairness I perhaps wouldn't have been so annoyed with the initial airing had it not followed the fortnight of tedium that was "Family of Blood"/Human Nature" but I've watched it again since and I cannot see why it gets so much praise and why it's writer has won awards for it.

Barbelith,
My opinions have nothing to do with wanting the show to be how it was as a youth because aside from a few misty memories of the Peter Davison era I never saw a Classic story in full until 2 years ago as I only became intrested after enjoying the majority of the first 2 series of Nu-Who.

And would the same "juggernaut ratings" be the ones that have as yet failed to beat the 16.1 million that part 4 of "City of Death" got way back in 1979 and were beaten by a few lumps of clay this Christmas?

 

[barbelith]

I don't care what BS about the production schedules is given as an excuse for these stories I think it's pretty stupid having an episode where the main protagonist,the one that the show is named after is absent for most of it and we are instead supposed to watch a load of random characters who've never been seen before.

Or alternately it's a great way to examine the character of the Doctor by throwing him into sharp relief. He's actually cleverer in Blink than in most stories. Love & Monsters for the first time showed us the impact he has on the "extras" in these adventures. And Turn Left showed us what would happen if the Doctor wasn't here at all. All three episodes have deepened and enriched the character and his presence is felt even if he is largely off screen.

The alternative of course is not having a Christmas special, and to be frank if you're going to gloss over the very real production reasons for these episodes then there's not really any point in discussing it at all, because they are precisely that - realities.

Had the story been a 3-parter and the Doctor gone missing for the second part it would have made more sense but the way it was anyone who missed the start could have been left wondering if they'd got the right channel because it certainly didn't feel like a typical Doctor Who episode.

Except for the bits with the Doctor in. And the monsters. And the fact Doctor Who has no typical episode.

And would the same "juggernaut ratings" be the ones that have as yet failed to beat the 16.1 million that part 4 of "City of Death" got way back in 1979 and were beaten by a few lumps of clay this Christmas?

I can see now why you're reluctant to back up any of your positions - it's because you clearly can't. City of Death aired against two whole channels of opposition and one of those was on strike at the time. Modern programming airs against quite literally hundreds of channels of opposition and the Christmas ratings are staggering to anyone who knows the industry. And this idiotic suggestion of yours that coming in second on Christmas day = some sort of black mark is just that - idiotic.

I must admit I'm a bit baffled why you're still here ranting about a show you claim to hate two years later. Have you considered therapy?

 

[William Shatners Toupee]

Have you considered therapy?

Awww. Play NICE with each other children or we're going to give the Doctor Who action figure licence back to Dapol!

 

[bcm77]

Have you considered therapy?

Have you considered being a tad more tolerant of someone's views if they don't match yours instead of resorting to that kind of remark?