Doctor Who - Spoilers!

[Rogue Trooper]

Never knew there was a special for easter, somethng to watch i guess,

 

[barbelith]

I don't recall where I heard the term Nu-Who first but I suppose it's come about as a way for fans to seperate the original 1963-89 run from the revival and really there's not much that the two eras have in common (aside from the obvious) so it's difficult for some to accept as being part of the same continuity.

There's more in common between the last four Doctors than the first four. And vastly more in common between the second half of the series than the first half. The new series makes its share of mistakes (the series four finale is just embarrassingly poor drama on multiple levels) but it's also got its share of stone cold classics.

I'm always baffled by the "difficult to accept as being part of the same continuity" thing. I can understand people not liking it, but frankly I doubt there's ever been a bigger effort on television to directly link continuity than Doctor Who. Forget about returning monsters and future history and references to past adventures - this is the series that gave us School Reunion. What's the argument the continuity doesn't carry?

 

[ProgMatinee]

Correction, I've watched and indeed ENJOYED most of what came before "The Runaway Bride" ( even DT as the Doctor to begin with ) but after that is when I felt things started to slide.

Even though I nearly stopped watching on several occasions I persisted with it out of a sense of optimism that'd it'd get better before finally calling it a day after the series 4 finale.

And what's so wrong with me liking the character of Wilf?
For me he's the only member of the Noble clan and one of the few in the entire revived show that comes across as being genuinely likeable. Maybe it's because he reminds me a bit of my own grandad who is no longer with us. Did you ever consider that?

Sorry I touched a sentimental spot, but I can't be expected to know that. I personally think the character is a tad corny and a bit poorly acted, though he is a little "cute", almost too much so.

 

[bcm77]

There's more in common between the last four Doctors than the first four. And vastly more in common between the second half of the series than the first half. The new series makes its share of mistakes (the series four finale is just embarrassingly poor drama on multiple levels) but it's also got its share of stone cold classics.

I'm always baffled by the "difficult to accept as being part of the same continuity" thing. I can understand people not liking it, but frankly I doubt there's ever been a bigger effort on television to directly link continuity than Doctor Who. Forget about returning monsters and future history and references to past adventures - this is the series that gave us School Reunion. What's the argument the continuity doesn't carry?

Personally it's not so much the continuity I've a problem with,in a show about time travel it's nigh on impossible to keep things consistent, it's more the style of story telling that makes it difficult for me to enjoy Nu-Who as much as I do the 2nd-4th Doctor eras even though I'd never seen a Classic story in full until just after the second series of Nu-Who had finished.

The Classic era was much slower paced with most stories being 4-part serials and due to the lack of fancy effects technology the stories had to be driven by the dialogue. OK that dialogue wasn't necessarily the best ever written but on many occasions it allowed for much more intresting characters as even minor ones were allowed a decent amount of time onscreen.

Nu-Who by comparison is a mad rush to get from one flashy action scene to the next with no time for much in between and most of the stories come off as either rushed or they try to be something spectacular but end up nowhere near the mark.

The occasional fast paced story is fine but not every single week and I've found it impossible to connect with most of the characters due to either not seeing enough of them to form an opinion or the fact they are plain irritating.

I know the format has had to change to reflect how modern TV audiences are but unlike many Who fans I'm not going to blindly accept whatever the BBC come up with just for the sake of having new episodes to watch.

Prog,
All's cool, I was tired and having a crappy day when I wrote that so I overreacted a bit.
And you're spot on about badly acted characters having special places in people's hearts. It's the only way I can explain the popularity of the 10th Doctor,Donna Noble and Captain Jack.

 

[wookster]

Personally it's not so much the continuity I've a problem with,in a show about time travel it's nigh on impossible to keep things consistent, it's more the style of story telling that makes it difficult for me to enjoy Nu-Who as much even though I'd never seen a Classic story in full until just after the second series of Nu-Who had finished.

The Classic era was much slower paced with most stories being 4-part serials and due to the lack of fancy effects technology the stories had to be driven by the dialogue. OK that dialogue wasn't necessarily the best ever written but on many occasions it allowed for much more intresting characters as even minor ones were allowed a decent amount of time onscreen.

Nu-Who by comparison is a mad rush to get from one flashy action scene to the next with no time for much in between and most of the stories come off as either rushed or they try to be something spectacular but end up nowhere near the mark.

The occasional fast paced story is fine but not every single week and I've found it impossible to connect with most of the characters due to either not seeing enough of them to form an opinion or the fact they are plain irritating.

I know the format has had to change to reflect how modern TV audiences are but unlike many Who fans I'm not going to blindly accept whatever the BBC come up with just for the sake of having new episodes to watch.

Prog,
All's cool, I was tired and having a crappy day when I wrote that so I overeacted a bit.

That kinda sums up how I feel about it, my kids love it, and I love watching it with my kids... but I can find it annoying and a little simplistic sometimes, but it is essentially a tea-time family show that makes a lot of kids buy licenced toys... so the BBC are happy and laughing all the way to the bank!

And you're spot on about badly acted characters having special places in people's hearts. It's the only way I can explain the popularity of the 10th Doctor,Donna Noble and Captain Jack.

Ooooooh... you wouldnt let it lie... you just couldn't let it lie!!!!

 

[pixletwin]

I watched DW as a kid and I guess when I watch it now I am not overly critical with an adult eye but still watch it has a kid... prolly the reason why Jarjar and ewoks never bugged me too.

 

[bcm77]

Ooooooh... you wouldnt let it lie... you just couldn't let it lie!!!!

Nice Vic Reeves reference! ( now there'd be an intresting Doctor).

And while I'm in a good mood I think I'll mention the Nu-Who episodes that I think hold their own with the best Classic stories.

1.Dalek












2.Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways
3.The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances
4.Army of Ghosts/Doomsday
5.The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit

And before some smartarse points out a lot of those were written,produced and starred in by the people involved with Nu-Who that I've come to hate so much,notice they're all from the first couple of years which I mostly liked.

 

[wookster]

Nice Vic Reeves reference! ( now there'd be an intresting Doctor).

I've said that myself, or Alan Rickman... but he wouldn't be interested!

 

[ProgMatinee]

I've liked most of the nuwho stuff, but there are episodes that I think are rushed or annoying or what have you. But overall I think they leave enough space to give breath to true background characters that mattered, Mickey, Rose's mom,etc. The 3rd season I really think they did away with backgrounders to a good respect but I really think it was to focus on Martha and the Doctor himself more. I don't dislike season 4, but I didn't connect with Donna's character as much as Martha's so I can agree that an element of likable characters may have been missing from that season.

Anyway, I have fairly enjoyed watching the old Who too, but I often think some of the stories are way to long. Some of the stories you can skip the middle 2 episodes and not miss much progress.

 

[pixletwin]

Anyway, I have fairly enjoyed watching the old Who too, but I often think some of the stories are way to long. Some of the stories you can skip the middle 2 episodes and not miss much progress.

Peter Davison has been pretty vocal supporting the idea that the classic Who episodes be reedited. I would be OK with that because there are just too many moments that draaaaaaaaaag in the classic series.

 

[bcm77]

I've said that myself, or Alan Rickman... but he wouldn't be interested!

And they're too old to be considered even if they were both up for it.
Using the BBC's current line of thinking the 12th Doctor will be probably be a foetus.

 

[barbelith]

The Classic era was much slower paced with most stories being 4-part serials and due to the lack of fancy effects technology the stories had to be driven by the dialogue.

I can appreciate that, but even you must admit there is a large jump in storytelling style between The Reign of Terror and The Seeds of Doom and The Curse of Fenric. The classic series changed radically over time and I think we often don't notice that because it's an evolution.

But not always. Jumping from The War Games to Spearhead from Space is a massive leap - far bigger than the storytelling shift from Survival to Rose, for example.

I point this out because it's important to consider that what may be "slow pacing" for one viewer could be breakneck speed for another.

I agree with you that the new series is too often rushed, and although I love it dearly I will be the first to admit it's a bit dumb and not nearly as ambitious or imaginative as the original series. But it's also not always rushed; scripts like Rose and Blink are terrific examples of pacing and we do get to slow down a few times a year to classic series unfolding with the two-part stories. I recall you dislike Human Nature but it's a classic equivalent of the old four-part structure - only without the "dogleg" of part three that used to drive poor old Robert Holmes to fits.

Steven Moffat is brilliant at pacing and structure; I know you dislike his episodes but I suspect his version of Doctor Who will be much closer to the one you prefer in terms of slowing down.

The occasional fast paced story is fine but not every single week and I've found it impossible to connect with most of the characters due to either not seeing enough of them to form an opinion or the fact they are plain irritating.

Here I think the nostalgia effect sets in (even for new classic series viewers, who subconsciously see everything through a veneer of history). The fact is the classic series simply did not have very many fully formed characters. Outside of seasons 1 and 26 I would argue it had none at all. What makes us love those companions are the actors playing them. So while it's fair enough to say you haven't seen enough of the modern companions to form an opinion, I think even you have to admit we've been given far more to make an opinion about than, say, Jo Grant, who is an utter cipher made wonderful by the actor who plays her.

As for the foetus comment ... to be completely fair Steven Moffat went into the casting sessions wanting an older man in his 40s, having believed the RTD Doctors were too young for the role. Matt Smith blew him away. Simple as that.

 

[bcm77]

I can appreciate that, but even you must admit there is a large jump in storytelling style between The Reign of Terror and The Seeds of Doom and The Curse of Fenric. The classic series changed radically over time and I think we often don't notice that because it's an evolution.

But not always. Jumping from The War Games to Spearhead from Space is a massive leap - far bigger than the storytelling shift from Survival to Rose, for example.

I point this out because it's important to consider that what may be "slow pacing" for one viewer could be breakneck speed for another.

I agree with you that the new series is too often rushed, and although I love it dearly I will be the first to admit it's a bit dumb and not nearly as ambitious or imaginative as the original series. But it's also not always rushed; scripts like Rose and Blink are terrific examples of pacing and we do get to slow down a few times a year to classic series unfolding with the two-part stories. I recall you dislike Human Nature but it's a classic equivalent of the old four-part structure - only without the "dogleg" of part three that used to drive poor old Robert Holmes to fits.

Steven Moffat is brilliant at pacing and structure; I know you dislike his episodes but I suspect his version of Doctor Who will be much closer to the one you prefer in terms of slowing down.



Here I think the nostalgia effect sets in (even for new classic series viewers, who subconsciously see everything through a veneer of history). The fact is the classic series simply did not have very many fully formed characters. Outside of seasons 1 and 26 I would argue it had none at all. What makes us love those companions are the actors playing them. So while it's fair enough to say you haven't seen enough of the modern companions to form an opinion, I think even you have to admit we've been given far more to make an opinion about than, say, Jo Grant, who is an utter cipher made wonderful by the actor who plays her.

As for the foetus comment ... to be completely fair Steven Moffat went into the casting sessions wanting an older man in his 40s, having believed the RTD Doctors were too young for the role. Matt Smith blew him away. Simple as that.

I can't comment on the change over the entire history of the show since 1963 as since I got into the Classic era I've concentrated on the 2nd-4th Doctors and haven't bothered at all with 6,7, or 8 but it's true enough that the show's style is constantly changing,I just prefer the style of the older stuff.

My problem with "Family of Blood/Human Nature" wasn't the pacing,I just found it a very dull story and didn't like the idea of the Doctor pretending to be human as IMO his 10th incarnation behaves in far too human a manner already.

And as far as characters not being properly established I'm not really referring to companions,I mean the sort of minor characters that nowadays would be lucky to get a single line.
The likes of Nyder in "Genesis of the Daleks",the double act of Professor Litefoot and Henry Gordon Jago in "The Talons of Weng-Chiang" or Greg Sutton in "Inferno" are for me much more intresting and easier to believe in than most of the main characters in Nu-Who as they were given chance to establish themselves and make some sort of impact on the audience.
They were probably concieved to be just as basic a stereotype as their modern counterparts but came across a whole lot better because of the extra time they got to do their thing.

As for Moffatt I DID like "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" and still do but all I'll say about the others he wrote is "they exist" and leave it at that.

I doubt his vision of Who will be as dumb as his predecessor's because I frankly don't think it's possible to insult people's intelligence any more than RTD often has but even so I'm not convinced things will improve to the point where I could begin to enjoy it on a regular basis again,at least not until we get an older actor in the lead role.

Matt Smith could well be a great actor but somebody who looks that young is rarely taken seriously as a voice of experience or authority in real life so I think it'll be difficult to take his Doctor seriously.

 

[Valfar]

Now these are the Cybermen i remember, those new ones look so stupid.

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[pixletwin]

New set report:

Spoiler

David Tennant, John Simm, Elizabeth Sladen and the kid who plays Luke in SJA have been filming all day at the location used for Sarah Jane's house.

 

[Memnoch]

Man this is just getting more and more enjoyable.

 

[pixletwin]

Yeah.

If you want to follow along with me, here is the source for up-to-the-minute Twitter reports from the set:

https://search.twitter.com/search?q=#dwsr

 

[DinoLast]

To all UK freaks
If you're reading this, you're missing Doctor Who

 

[Karma]

loved every bit of it

I thought lee evans was brilliant


preview of the next one looked cool.........the waters of mars

doctor's song is nearly sung....he will knock 4 times

 

[Darth Caedus]

UH UH UH UH, must download now.