Doctor Who - Spoilers!

[KatyaR]

My problem with "Family of Blood/Human Nature" wasn't the pacing,I just found it a very dull story and didn't like the idea of the Doctor pretending to be human as IMO his 10th incarnation behaves in far too human a manner already.

I didn't care for it either, not as much that the Doctor was pretending to be human (not crazy about that part, either, mind you) but that the Doctor, *the Doctor*, was in absolute pants-wetting fear of these creatures, especially when the end of the two-parter shows his disposal of them as pretty much a handwave. With all the dreadful, fearsome beasts and creatures he has faced? What?
I know, Tennant probably wanted some 'depth' to his role, but I am bothered by the fact that the essential personality of the character had to be betrayed to do so.
I'm sure, too, that this was written as a lead-in to the Master's return, so that the Magic Pocketwatch wouldn't seem completely out of left field. (Still did, bleah.)
More than one New Who episode has had a definite fanfic feeling to me, and this was one of the most pronounced.

 

[Kabukiman]

I didn't care for it either, not as much that the Doctor was pretending to be human (not crazy about that part, either, mind you) but that the Doctor, *the Doctor*, was in absolute pants-wetting fear of these creatures, especially when the end of the two-parter shows his disposal of them as pretty much a handwave. With all the dreadful, fearsome beasts and creatures he has faced?

That's not how I interpreted it at all. The Doctor wasn't afraid of the Family of Blood, he was afraid for them. He knew what the outcome would be and he wanted to avoid it. I thought that was made pretty clear by the conclusion of the story.

Fantastic story, imo.

 

[bcm77]

I the Doctor, *the Doctor*, was in absolute pants-wetting fear of these creatures, especially when the end of the two-parter shows his disposal of them as pretty much a handwave. With all the dreadful, fearsome beasts and creatures he has faced? What?

It was certainly a far cry from the days when he used to face his enemies armed with nothing but a few flippant remarks and a bag of jelly babies!

The other thing I disliked was the whole romantic angle because unless it's done subtly I generally think those sort of storylines belong in a soap opera as opposed to Doctor Who.

There were the occasional romantic bits in the Classic era but they were never rammed down audiences throats the way RTD does and thus much more tolerable.

 

[pixletwin]

TBaker seemed pretty scared as he dangled from the satelite dish in Logopolis. He also seemed pretty frightened as he ran away from Chancelor Goth in the Matrix in The Deadly Assassin. He also seemed pretty scared when he was going out to face the Kroll in The Power of Kroll...

Not to mention that Patrick Troughton was pretty fearful in nearly every one of his episodes.

Just saying that some of you have the RTD hate glasses on so thick that it may have obscured your vision a bit.

 

[barbelith]

I didn't care for it either, not as much that the Doctor was pretending to be human

The Doctor wasn't pretending to be human! John Smith was human. The Doctor was effectively in the watch. John Smith was a completely different persona, and the entire point of the sacrifice at the end of the story was that it was a sacrifice, John Smith dies so that the Doctor can be reborn.

The Doctor doesn't fall in love with Joan; John Smith does. Joan realizes this at the end, and when the Doctor returns he only cares about her in the abstract way he cares about all humans.

(not crazy about that part, either, mind you) but that the Doctor, *the Doctor*, was in absolute pants-wetting fear of these creatures, especially when the end of the two-parter shows his disposal of them as pretty much a handwave

But of course the only reason he has the upper hand at the end is because the Family believes he's John Smith at that point. Their defenses are down. And of course we've seen a terrified Doctor many, many times in the past, well before the RTD era. Personally I prefer the terrified Doctor to the "famous and fearless" Doctor of something like Forest of the Dead.

 

[pixletwin]

Well put Barbe. 100% agree with you.

 

[bcm77]

TBaker seemed pretty scared as he dangled from the satelite dish in Logopolis. He also seemed pretty frightened as he ran away from Chancelor Goth in the Matrix in The Deadly Assassin. He also seemed pretty scared when he was going out to face the Kroll in The Power of Kroll...

Not to mention that Patrick Troughton was pretty fearful in nearly every one of his episodes.

Just saying that some of you have the RTD hate glasses on so thick that it may have obscured your vision a bit.

I haven't seen The Deadly Assassin yet ( it's out on DVD here next month though ) so I can't comment on that but it's true enough about the other 2.

Based on the 4 stories I've seen I take the 2nd Doctor's apparent cowardice to be a ploy albeit one that rarely worked to make the bad guys think he was no threat because he was never found to be lacking in courage when it really mattered.

Whatever the actual reasoning for the events of Family of Blood/Human Nature it just didn't engage my intrest from the off and Tennant's flat,almost unintrested acting style when he's not in smartmouth mode was never more apparent.

Along with the story that followed it made up a 3 week spell that confirmed my suspicions that the show had declined in quality compared to the earlier series.

Thankfully there's only 3 more episodes to go before a fresh,new approach and hopefully one I'll be able to get into despite my current scepticism.

 

[Rogue Trooper]

Watched Planet of the Dead yesterday, thought it was really good. Much better than the christmas special.

The fly aliens where great, old school aliens.

Next episode in autumn, then a 2-part christmas special.

 

[barbelith]

Based on the 4 stories I've seen I take the 2nd Doctor's apparent cowardice to be a ploy albeit one that rarely worked to make the bad guys think he was no threat because he was never found to be lacking in courage when it really mattered.

Actually we see him quite often frightened in situations where a ploy would be irrelevant. The brilliant thing about Troughton is that his Doctor was actually fearful yet carried on anyway, making him braver in my mind than a more heroic incarnation like Pertwee. Meanwhile the Hinchcliffe years had Tom Baker routinely terrified of what he was facing, but it's such a subtle performance you have to actually pay attention. Watch Pyramids of Mars again.

Along with the story that followed it made up a 3 week spell that confirmed my suspicions that the show had declined in quality compared to the earlier series.

The irony of course being that run of episodes is generally considered the absolute top bar - and for good reason.

 

[pixletwin]

Troughton played more the fool to make people think he was less of a threat. I can't recall when he ever played like he was scared to achieve the same effect.

 

[bcm77]

Actually we see him quite often frightened in situations where a ploy would be irrelevant. The brilliant thing about Troughton is that his Doctor was actually fearful yet carried on anyway, making him braver in my mind than a more heroic incarnation like Pertwee. Meanwhile the Hinchcliffe years had Tom Baker routinely terrified of what he was facing, but it's such a subtle performance you have to actually pay attention. Watch Pyramids of Mars again.



The irony of course being that run of episodes is generally considered the absolute top bar - and for good reason.

The Hinchcliffe years for me are when most of the best stories happened ( my top 5 are all from that period ) and thinking about it the Doctor was often spooked in certain situations and most definitely by Sutekh.

I think a big difference in the way certain aspects of the characters and themes in the stories are presented between the eras is a word you mentioned and that's subtlety,such a word doesn't exist in RTD's vocabulary and everything he does is so extremely tilted one way or the other and he rarely,if ever gets the balance right.
That's not to say the Classic era was always right on the money either but there seemed to be more of an attempt to stay away from certain themes that didn't really need to be in there.

I certainly see the irony that the Nu-Who episodes I like least are widely regarded as the best but that's up to other people if they like them and I don't think I'll change my mind any time soon.
The first one may have clicked with me had the leading man not been in a charisma vacuum for the duration but I would have hated the other one even if it had been made when one of my favorite Doctors was in it.

 

[pixletwin]

Just watched State of Decay and now I remember why that is one of my all time faves.

 

[bcm77]

Just watched State of Decay and now I remember why that is one of my all time faves.

A great story,if Tom was getting bored of the role by his final year it didn't prevent him delivering the goods and the story that followed was IMO even better.

 

[pixletwin]

I haven't seen Warriors Gate in a like 10 years... I may watch it now while I eat lunch.

 

[bcm77]

I haven't seen Warriors Gate in a like 10 years... I may watch it now while I eat lunch.

I only saw it for the first time 2-3 months ago when the E-Space Trilogy box set came out so it's still quite a new one to me.

Going back to "State of Decay",I really like the moment where the Doctor tells Romana she's wonderful.
I know I've previously mentioned my dislike of romantic elements in the current show but I think subtle little moments like that are far more effective than ramming the subject down viewer's throats the way RTD does.

That moment was obviously helped by the fact that the actors were in love for real but there were a few bits like that between the 4th Doctor & Sarah Jane as well and to me that's all that's really needed in a show like Who.

 

[pixletwin]

I agree with that, I think... It is more effective for the romances and such to be understated and subtle rather than overstated and obvious. But then again the Rose thing never bothered me at all (except for the end of Journey's End with 10.5 and all that--there is just something weirdly wrong about Rose and 10.5 going at it).

 

[Memnoch]

I dunno, I keep hoping that 10.5 won't be long for the Multiverse. Hoping for a Watcher-style regeneration.

 

[pixletwin]

With 10.5 as the Watcher? Hardly seems likely.

 

[Memnoch]

Not as the Watcher but as a catalyst to kick start 10s regeneration. I know it's not likely ... but deep down I don't want Rose to be happy.

 

[pixletwin]

Thats the one thing I don't like with RTD. He seems to not be able to leave well enough alone. (However I don't feel that applies to Donna... her story never felt like it was finished the way Rose's was... though I must admit when Rose returned at the end of the Adipose episode I got chills).