Does Rey being a Palpatine undermine the Skywalker legacy?

[ZE_501]

You wrote a story for the PT?

In response to being asked what an acceptable PT would have been. Treatment is the wall of text over on TROS thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[abake]

I've decided to stop caring about the ST and the "legacy".
To be honest, it all went downhill for me with TFA... IMHO that movie undid everything that the OT and PT set up: the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker, which sets up the fall of the Republic and the Jedi, and the rise of the Empire and Palpatine; and the rise of Luke Skywalker, which sets up the fall of the Empire and Palpatine, and the redemption of Anakin and resurgence of the Republic and the Jedi.
By choosing to undo all those achievements, the ST was set up to fail in the larger scheme of things, because then it had to retread the same conflict.
It would have been interesting if they doubled down on the cyclical aspect of the story, i.e. this is a never-ending cycle that the Force has to go through to keep the balance, which would have been pretty depressing and dour -think Roland Deschain at the end of The Dark Tower. But of course they just went with a soft retelling of the same story, except they condensed the two arcs into the three movies with the fall of the New Republic, the redemption of Kylo, the rise and fall of Palpatine and the New (Empire) Order, and the rise (again) of the new New Republic.
So... yeah.
Doesn't really matter to me, I have the first six movies to enjoy, plus Rogue One, so I'm good.

 

[BoosterGold06]

Simply bringing back Palpatine ruined Anakin's redemption arc from the first six movies.

 

[Prime Clone]

Simply bringing back Palpatine ruined Anakin's redemption arc from the first six movies.

I didn't mind that so much - I was a huge Dark Empire fan. But having Rey Palpatine ultimately bring balance did make the first six episodes rather pointless.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

I didn't mind that so much - I was a huge Dark Empire fan. But having Rey Palpatine ultimately bring balance did make the first six episodes rather pointless.

Rey did not impact anakins arc whatsoever, Anakin brought balance to the force for a moment in time, that was his purpose he wasnt going to live forever so he could not keep it in balance forever. The moment he died the balance started shifting. The living force is always in flux always in motion its endless. Any changes in the light side and darkside exert pressure on the force itself. I dont know why people view the force as something that would stay in balance forever after one heroic act at one point in time. You cannot eliminate darkness from the world forever with a single act. New darkness will always rise, the force seeks harmony and balance with this darkness not the destruction of it.

The sith and jedi both caused aberrations in the force because they both have extremist views of how it should be used, who is chosen to use it, how they are to behave and what they are to believe in. These extreme philosophies (sith and jedi) resulted in both sides creating an unbalance in the force. This is why luke said it was the jedi hubris that caused them to believe that the force belonged to them it does not, it does not favor sides -it is neutral. It is not the jedi’s to mold or to change its rules to fit their own philosophies. The Jedi disrupted the lightside of the force as much as the sith did the darkside but in different ways as illustrated by how the jedi and sith code deviate from the original decree. Their dogmatic beliefs also led them to misunderstand the prophecy of the Chosen one, to them balance meant wiping out the sith and completely ridding the world of darkness which was obviously not the correct interpretation (they are the ones who were wiped out, it was their corruption of the light that also needed to end along with the sith to bring the force back into balance)-

The force code (Balance)
Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

The jedis distorted version (Unbalance corrupted by lightside principles and dogmatic views)

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force

Strict dogmatic rules and hubris led them to shape and distort the “lightside” into something it was never supposed to be, much like the sith and their corruption of darkness. The jedi’s code does not allow for balance, their vision of balance is what led to their downfall. A complete rejection of anything they deemed to be dark or sinful (including love and attachment - you cannot reject these good emotions and remain balanced or in harmony with yourself).

 

[Prime Clone]

 

[FlyAndFight]

The Midichlorians turned the Force into a disease and in the process, destroyed the magic of this space fantasy.

That is what initially killed Star Wars for me.

Everything that followed, the rest of the Prequels and the new Sequels simply were beating a dead and disintegrating horse (or Taun-Taun).

Sure they are interspersed here and there with some interesting characters (Darth Maul) and some interesting moments but the damage was long done.

I guess that is why I enjoyed "Rogue One" and "Solo", as they fall in the OT timeline and can be viewed without the effects of the prequels and even sequels.

As far as Rey's lineage goes, it was just a contrived and desperate attempt by JJ to answer the Mary Sue question and provide a worthy adversary in the sequels. It was all "meh" to me. And by the way, I also think it watered down the ending of the OT. If you don't agree, what if he's resurrected yet again in another film/trilogy? Wouldn't you say that it would water down the sequels as well? The Sith Eveready bunny... Just keeps going and going and going...

 

[ajp4mgs]

My answer to this thread's question is that Rey being a Palpatine is one half of the reason why the Skywalker legacy is undermined. The other half is Palpatine having survived this whole time. Both of these things compromise the main narrative value of the entire saga.

The OT ended up being about how a broken father and family was redeemed and restored because of the bond between father and son. The PT was then made to tell us how that father (and his family) was broken in the first place. When you connect the Lucas stories, it becomes unavoidably clear that Palpatine wrecked Anakin's family, and that having Anakin defeat him while gaining some measure of a restored family is the best narrative direction for the saga's climax.

ROTJ was all the more triumphant a conclusion after the PT not only because Anakin was redeemed and Luke got to bring his true father back, but because Anakin defeated and destroyed the one who tore his family apart to begin with. No matter what you think of the quality of the PT, it drove home how the corruption and collapse of Anakin and his family was orchestrated by Palpatine. That made the ROTJ ending more meaningful, and a powerful coda to GL's films that should never have been undone by TROS.

What TROS did by bringing Palpatine back was say, "Nope; Anakin merely delayed Palpatine's ongoing corruption of the Skywalkers, and every single one of them ended up dying because of it." Then Palpatine was finally thwarted only by someone from his own family; and with the Skywalkers essentially on the sidelines.

Every attempted explanation for how the Skywalker legacy lives on through Rey fails to work for me. And every attempt to explain how the Skywalkers supposedly influenced and empowered Rey also ends up hollow. 1.) She didn't get her powers from being a Skywalker (or from being just randomly really strong with Force); she got them from being a Palpatine. 2.) She didn't need the Skywalkers training her; she was using her powers masterfully before even *meeting* the Skywalkers. And 3.) she didn't even need the last living Skywalker (Ben) to help her defeat Palpatine; he was in a pit.

Making Rey into Palpatine's granddaughter shifted the focus of the story. Now, it became about Rey having had her own *separate* family crisis that Palps also caused. And it became this personal story for Rey in a way that was almost exclusively independent of the Skywalkers. That's a catastrophically bad direction to end the saga with, IMO. For me, it more than just "undermines" the legacy, it almost entirely negates it.

 

[Khev]

After letting it all sink in the past few weeks this is my current (final?) take on the matter (lol):

And I'm going to take the films as a true 9 episode narrative (so none of my "well Gary Kurtz said this and this other part here trumps this retcon" and so on.)

Episodes I-VI: The Prophecy of the Chosen One. Anakin Skywalker destroys the Sith *personally.* Just Anakin. No assistance from ghosts. Not even any (direct) assistance from the only other living Jedi (Luke.) Just him. Throwing Palpatine into the pit and killing him. Prophecy fulfilled.

But Palpatine is a cheat and not only do his "unnatural" paths attempt to cheat death but also to cheat *the Prophecy itself.*

And that's where his "resurrection" comes in. His loophole of prevailing over the Prophecy so to speak.

Now TROS the film is ambiguous obviously as to how he returns because on screen we just see him, his weird machines, and the chanting cultists and he repeats the line about pathways that some consider to be unnatural. The Visual Dictionary says that Palpatine didn't have a contingency in ROTJ and that he really did meet his end but that his "Sith Eternal" followers (who worship Sith as gods) used technology mixed with occult magic to bring him back. That theory is as good as any (and apparently "official") but you can take it or leave it since it wasn't explicitly stated on film.

So he comes back BUT...because he did something unnatural, and because he did something maybe that the Force would even consider blasphemous, that caused the entirety of Jedi spirits that were one with the Force to say OH HELL NO and they assaulted him through Rey once and for all to put him down for good.

Think of Palps as Karl at the end of Die Hard, the Jedi ghosts are Al, and Rey is Al's gun.

Did Karl undo all of McClane's previous heroics up to that point. Of course not.

Now I already know that some of you are going to say "but I hated Karl coming back" and I get that. But it was still a fun gag in the theater and in no way prevented DH from being an all-time classic. Just like the ST hasn't diminished the Saga in any way in my mind. In fact it has only enhanced the overall Saga (including the PT since it does elevate those films in particular IMO.)

 

[sithocan]

I agree. It's a 9-film series for me as well. Sure, there are parts that I wish to be different, but overall, I like the whole saga.
For those who dislike ST because Anakin's legacy is undermined by Rey being a Palpatine or Emperor being back, I hope they can answer those questions:
1-Did they think Anakin's legacy was undermined when emperor returned in highly acclaimed Dark Empire comics (I'm not a EU fan, but remember that those stories were canon)? And he returned much sooner that shown in ST. Whether you care for EU or not does not change the fact that was canon. Dark Empire was written while GL is in charge.
2-Would it differ if Rey was not a Palpatine and a Skywalker? The chosen one is regarded as Anakin (according to PT and GL), not Skywalker lineage. So, be it Rey, Kylo, Poe, BB-8, etc, won't change the fact that it's not Anakin who defeated Palps in TROS. And that should lift the hate against Rey being a Palpatine. Those WHO care for Anakin's legacy should oppose anyone other than Anakin who defeats Palps.

For me, I don't like Emperor being back, both in Dark Empire and TROS (So, I am consistent in thi regard). And the issue I don't prefer in TROS was not Palpatine beaten by Rey, instead Palpatine beaten by someone except Anakin (Though my belief that Rey got all the Jedi's support somehow resolves that issue for me).
I am bored by continuous backlash against SW while everyone can become so forgiving when it comes to other series.
I have spoken.

 

[Khev]

If you don't agree, what if he's resurrected yet again in another film/trilogy? Wouldn't you say that it would water down the sequels as well?

I don't know if "water down" is the term I'd use but yes it would be lame if he came back again. Why? Because the ST allowed the OT to give us the classic "false ending" and you only get to come back once.

Sauron gets to come back once, Voldemort gets to come back once, the Alien Queen gets to hitch a ride once, Karl in Die Hard, etc. One false ending = fun. More than one = well that gets into cheap slasher movie series silliness.

To me Palps coming back and wreaking havoc after the supposedly "happy" ending is no different than the 1984 Endo rising from the flames when Sarah and Reese were hugging and celebrating. Yes, Han got "Kyle Reesed" and had his happy ending cut permanently short as a result of the false ending. But it's still a fun storytelling trope and since Palps dying in Episode IX by someone other than Anakin was outlined as a potential finale to the Saga before ROTJ was even filmed it's one I'm more than happy to accept. YMMV of course.

 

[Prime Clone]

Think of Palps as Karl at the end of Die Hard, the Jedi ghosts are Al, and Rey is Al's gun.

Jye, we need some visualisation here!

 

[a-dev]

Waitaminute...the kid Al shot had a Rey gun....

 

[Khev]

 

[Prime Clone]

Okay, I think I've come to terms with the fact J.J. was going for a major twist on the same level as ESB - though it didn't quite have the same impact (maybe because we weren't as invested in Rey as we were in Luke).

But it's literally the opposite of what R.J. had in mind, and just the biggest example of how the ST is at war with itself.

 

[Josette]

I felt it undermined not only the Skywalker legacy, but also undermined the character of Rey herself.

 

[TheDucky]

The entire ST undermined the entire saga and was a directionless mess made up as it they went along with TFA being a cheap fan fic of ANH, TLJ being utterly pointless with Jake Skywalker and ruining the franchise, and TROS pandering by bringing back Palpatine with the worst ending of all time in film history.

So yes, Rey being a Palpatine completely undermines the Saga. It’s not the Skywalker story anymore, it’s the Palpatine story.