Falcon and The Winter Soldier (potential) Hot Toys 1/6

[gmoney5000]

Yeah, and IMO it started off pretty well - I was such an innocent victim. I guess the awoken can be happy that they rolled over another one. Looking back, the whole bank thing/white people/Sam-didn't-have-a-401K etc. made me uneasy, as well as nerfing Bucky fairly early on; but it never crossed my mind that Disney's original flagship for D+ would botch two classic Marvel characters and treat a good part of the fan audience as tho they were stupid and needed lecturing. Repeatedly.

Hilarously I was SURE the finale would redemptive, so good I'd be smashing that SSC buy button; instead the Falcon suit didn't translate well to live action and Bucky's look is dull. Plus one of the worst speeches I ever sat through. Where is President Whitmore when u need him

If the show wanted to explore racism in America they could have handled it so much better, but it was done so in a very predictable, ham-fisted way that it was so off-putting.

I thought the scene where Sam is harassed by the police officers was poorly executed and couldn't be topped, but boy was I wrong! That scene where the 2 random Black bystanders go: "Oh, look it's Black Falcon!", "No, that's Captain America!" was so poorly acted and shoe-horned in, it was just absolute cringe! I was actually stunned by how terrible it was!

I had relatively high expectations for this show so I am quite disappointed now that the show has finally concluded. It honestly peaked at the first episode for me. I thought it was such a stellar start and then every episode afterwards was a steady decline.

Also, was relatively surprised at how much of a non-essential tertiary character Winter Soldier became by the last couple of episodes. His character development plateaued in the very first episode and he became relegated to just another sidekick by the end of it. No real development whatsoever.

I kinda feel bad for Sebastian Stan cause when he was contracted for this role with his 9 picture deal it was probably with the mindset that he would take over the Captain America mantle...but you know, political agenda took over and he was tossed aside as a disposable White guy...but I guess this is what happens when you decide to prioritize agenda-driven storytelling over storytelling that simply tries to be good...

Anyways since this show ended up being a mediocre dud to me I no longer have any interest in the figures (aside from a US Agent). Good luck to those who want a Sam Wilson Cap, hope it turns out better than this show was!

 

[Toonstrack]

If the show wanted to explore racism in America they could have handled it so much better, but it was done so in a very predictable, ham-fisted way that it was so off-putting.

I thought the scene where Sam is harassed by the police officers was poorly executed and couldn't be topped, but boy was I wrong! That scene where the 2 random Black bystanders go: "Oh, look it's Black Falcon!", "No, that's Captain America!" was so poorly acted and shoe-horned in, it was just absolute cringe! I was actually stunned by how terrible it was!

I had relatively high expectations for this show so I am quite disappointed now that the show has finally concluded. It honestly peaked at the first episode for me. I thought it was such a stellar start and then every episode afterwards was a steady decline.

Also, was relatively surprised at how much of a non-essential tertiary character Winter Soldier became by the last couple of episodes. His character development plateaued in the very first episode and he became relegated to just another sidekick by the end of it. No real development whatsoever.

I kinda feel bad for Sebastian Stan cause when he was contracted for this role with his 9 picture deal it was probably with the mindset that he would take over the Captain America mantle...but you know, political agenda took over and he was tossed aside as a disposable White guy...but I guess this is what happens when you decide to prioritize agenda-driven storytelling over storytelling that simply tries to be good...

Anyways since this show ended up being a mediocre dud to me I no longer have any interest in the figures (aside from a US Agent). Good luck to those who want a Sam Wilson Cap, hope it turns out better than this show was!

It would make almost no sense for Bucky to get the suit in the MCU with his PTSD and past actions. Sam was a much better fit imo

I think they covered the topics in a good way, especially when Sam was admonished by Isaiah who is a bitter old man now, but decided to do his own thing tmand take up the mantle. Idk I just disagree with almost everything here.


To each their own.

 

[dukefett]

I thought Sam's new suit is terrific. He's the only one I'd be tempted by but I doubt I'll get anything for the show. I enjoyed it enough, I don't hold every MCU thing on a pedestal and this was right around the middle and a good watch for me.

 

[gmoney5000]

It would make almost no sense for Bucky to get the suit in the MCU with his PTSD and past actions. Sam was a much better fit imo

I think they covered the topics in a good way, especially when Sam was admonished by Isaiah who is a bitter old man now, but decided to do his own thing tmand take up the mantle. Idk I just disagree with almost everything here.

To each their own.

It makes almost complete sense for Bucky to take up the mantle in the MCU.

For starters, he's Steve Roger's best friend. Within the context of the MCU, how long has Steve actually known Sam??? Definitely not as long as Bucky...they were childhood friends. Secondly, he's already a patriotic character who loves the country which is why he enlisted back in WWII. Third, he's already a super soldier so he has the same strengths and abilities as Cap. Fourth, it would have been an appropriate redemption arc for his character...after experiencing and causing all the pain and suffering to others, it would only make sense thematically for him to become a symbol for good.

I would attempt to disagree/counter your points, but you really didn't make any beyond the fact that you thought the scene with Sam and Isaiah made Sam a suitable candidate...which is not a reason by the way.

I guess the only thing we do agree on is "to each their own."

 

[Sassafras]

If the show wanted to explore racism in America they could have handled it so much better, but it was done so in a very predictable, ham-fisted way that it was so off-putting.

I thought the scene where Sam is harassed by the police officers was poorly executed and couldn't be topped, but boy was I wrong! That scene where the 2 random Black bystanders go: "Oh, look it's Black Falcon!", "No, that's Captain America!" was so poorly acted and shoe-horned in, it was just absolute cringe! I was actually stunned by how terrible it was!

I had relatively high expectations for this show so I am quite disappointed now that the show has finally concluded. It honestly peaked at the first episode for me. I thought it was such a stellar start and then every episode afterwards was a steady decline.

Also, was relatively surprised at how much of a non-essential tertiary character Winter Soldier became by the last couple of episodes....

Anyways since this show ended up being a mediocre dud to me I no longer have any interest in the figures (aside from a US Agent). Good luck to those who want a Sam Wilson Cap, hope it turns out better than this show was!

Totally agree about the cheese level and sidelining Bucky. Screen time wise he was there often enough; it's just he and his skill set were wasted. Suppose part of that was to really push Mackie forward as Captain America (so people didn't pay too much attention to a fan favorite), but why? We already knew Falcon was gonna be Cap. I do think the show did a good job showing Falcon using his suit and wings against supersoldiers, so why not pay more attention to the fight choreography and dynamics for the final?

I honestly expected to see Bucky way up on a rooftop doing stealthy assassin stuff; it's common for the character in the comics. Instead he's on the ground with a fairly boring fight and rescue from a burning truck scene. Serviceable, but unremarkable.

Yeah, I wish folks luck with Falcon; IMO the movie costumers were known for editing classic comic costumes for something more live action workable, and I think they should have lost the cowl with Falcon. Someone posted it looks like a turkey neck and now I can't unsee it. It's like when someone said the HT Aquaman looked like an ear of corn and I couldn't unsee that either.

 

[punisher1974]

The only costume I'd be tempted to get from this series was Walker's US Agent get up. Then I'd likely stick an Evans headsculpt on it since in the comics it was Steve who originally wore that outfit.

That would get me to buy the concept Captain America headsculpt.

 

[Blackout]

Just saw the finale and I think Sam's Captain America suit is pretty awesome, he looks great! If (when?) they make a 1/6 of it, it will be hard for me to resist...

All the white in the suit looks great to me
Only thing I would personally do different is the head piece, I think it would look a little less goofy if it covered the top of his head rather than just wrapping around eye level. Cover the top of his head with a helmet and integrate the goggles into it.
Then it could also be similar to Steve's cap helmet too, maybe in white with a blue A (flipped from Steve)
Leave everything else as-is it's awesome

 

[Omega9300]

If the show wanted to explore racism in America they could have handled it so much better, but it was done so in a very predictable, ham-fisted way that it was so off-putting.

I thought the scene where Sam is harassed by the police officers was poorly executed and couldn't be topped, but boy was I wrong! That scene where the 2 random Black bystanders go: "Oh, look it's Black Falcon!", "No, that's Captain America!" was so poorly acted and shoe-horned in, it was just absolute cringe! I was actually stunned by how terrible it was!

I had relatively high expectations for this show so I am quite disappointed now that the show has finally concluded. It honestly peaked at the first episode for me. I thought it was such a stellar start and then every episode afterwards was a steady decline.

Also, was relatively surprised at how much of a non-essential tertiary character Winter Soldier became by the last couple of episodes. His character development plateaued in the very first episode and he became relegated to just another sidekick by the end of it. No real development whatsoever.

I kinda feel bad for Sebastian Stan cause when he was contracted for this role with his 9 picture deal it was probably with the mindset that he would take over the Captain America mantle...but you know, political agenda took over and he was tossed aside as a disposable White guy...but I guess this is what happens when you decide to prioritize agenda-driven storytelling over storytelling that simply tries to be good...

Anyways since this show ended up being a mediocre dud to me I no longer have any interest in the figures (aside from a US Agent). Good luck to those who want a Sam Wilson Cap, hope it turns out better than this show was!

Although I enjoyed the show more than gmoney and several others on this forum I agree that the first episode was the best. I also agree that important, painful, and complex issues like race/racism should have been handled better. Most of the time when dealing with racism (with few exceptions) the writing seemed rather clumsy and preachy rather than poignant and impactful. Of course that doesn?t mean that those issues should not have been explored on the show (they were brought up in the comics) but they need more thoughtful and less superficial treatment IMO.

That said, I know some people on this forum have expressed disapproval of the scene where Sam was harassed by two police officers, however stuff like that happens a lot and it impacts you on a number of levels for a long time. I experienced something like that in my twenties when a friend and I decided to go out one night after work. I stopped at an ATM and while withdrawing some money heard sounds behind me and saw the reflection of lights on the wall. I turned around to see two police officers with weapons drawn pointed at me ...I was 22 yo. Of course nothing ultimately came of it but it was traumatic and made for a long unpleasant night. My point is stuff like that happens often so I don?t think that incidences of that sort of treatment should be dismissed as false or overblown by people simply because it has never happened to them.

That said I did find the finale a bit too preachy, and that scene gmoney referenced where those two guys were talking "Oh, look it's Black Falcon!", "No, that's Captain America!" was one of the cringiest (sp) things I have seen in a long time, it was so bad I watched it twice bk I couldn?t believe they did that.

I do agree that Bucky was vastly underutilized and inexplicably nerfed. However I disagree with gmoney that he would have been better suited to take-up the Captain America mantle. Although the points he made about Bucky and his patriotism and super-soldier status are valid we also have to remember that at the end of Endgame Bucky was still a wanted man AND was possibly still very susceptible to mind control by whoever had that little red book or anyone that had memorized the sequence of those words. The point is at that point in time Bucky was still plagued by a lot of issues and baggage. Meanwhile Sam was also patriotic, let?s not forget he was also a combat veteran who volunteered to help Steve Rogers despite having no superpowers.

As for Sam taking over the mantle of Captain America, that can not just be dismissed as some MCU or Disney political agenda/virtue signaling or whatever. It was established in Marvel comics that Sam Wilson served as Captain America so it is simply inaccurate to diminish Sam?s tenure as Captain America as MCU political correctness.

I also hope that the MCU does more to develop Bucky?s character, I think he is potentially one of the most interesting characters in the current MCU and has much more to contribute to these stories than he has. I agree that he has been regulated to being a tertiary character since ?Captain America: The Winter Soldier? which is a shame. However I found it interesting that G referred to Bucky as being reduced to being the ?disposable white guy? in the show. I say that it is interesting because in the vast majority of films since the 1970?s it as been Black guys who have routinely served as the ?disposable (often dead) partner/friend? and this situation
is an outgrowth of unimaginative/lazy story telling but let?s not act like white guys being given that sort of status/place in Hollywood storylines is anywhere near ?a thing? at this point in time.

So overall I thought the show was pretty good but could have been much better.

As far as the Sam Wilson Captain America costume is concerned, I think it very much like his costume in the comics but I?m going to stick with my CW Falcon figure ...and I will continue to hope for a ZEMO!!

Btw pardon my typos I?m doing this on my cell and I suck at it.

 

[Toonstrack]

It makes almost complete sense for Bucky to take up the mantle in the MCU.

For starters, he's Steve Roger's best friend. Within the context of the MCU, how long has Steve actually known Sam??? Definitely not as long as Bucky...they were childhood friends. Secondly, he's already a patriotic character who loves the country which is why he enlisted back in WWII. Third, he's already a super soldier so he has the same strengths and abilities as Cap. Fourth, it would have been an appropriate redemption arc for his character...after experiencing and causing all the pain and suffering to others, it would only make sense thematically for him to become a symbol for good.

I would attempt to disagree/counter your points, but you really didn't make any beyond the fact that you thought the scene with Sam and Isaiah made Sam a suitable candidate...which is not a reason by the way.

I guess the only thing we do agree on is "to each their own."

Well Buckys redemption arc isn't complete yet. It would be very wierd imo to have a guy who was a agent who killed hundreds for some nazis become captain america. Even if they handwaved that away, he doesn't have nearly the confidence or charisma to be Cap. Bucky is a loner, hes not one to become a symbol for something, and hes got a lot of demons, some of which he hasn't even rid himself of yet. He was Steve's friend sure, he loved the country sure, but hes not only compromised hes damaged goods. Hes mentally damaged by his past experiences.

I can see the super solider serum being a help but I dont think thats necessary to wield the shield.

If you look at all of Buckys appearances it really wouldn't have fit his prior characterization for him to become Captain America. Hes not the type to inspire people or represent something, hes a great guy but thats not his thing, hasn't been since he was cured of his brainwashing which was less than 5 years ago for him. Down the line? Sure I'd like to see him get a shot at it or even for him and Sam to both do it but as he is now I dont see it.

I wasn't saying the Sam and Isaiah scene was the only reason Sam was a good fit, if anything that was an obstacle for same to overcome as Isaiah said he shouldn't do it. Sam is fit because he strives to understand people instead of just punching away his problems and he has a compassionate and sympathetic nature, but also a firm will to do the right thing above all else. Like Steve he has a moral code and hes willing to use outreach be the voice of reason to win his battles. I think the show did a good job of showcasing this.

 

[gmoney5000]

Although I enjoyed the show more than gmoney and several others on this forum I agree that the first episode was the best. I also agree that important, painful, and complex issues like race/racism should have been handled better. Most of the time when dealing with racism (with few exceptions) the writing seemed rather clumsy and preachy rather than poignant and impactful. Of course that doesn?t mean that those issues should not have been explored on the show (they were brought up in the comics) but they need more thoughtful and less superficial treatment IMO.

That said, I know some people on this forum have expressed disapproval of the scene where Sam was harassed by two police officers, however stuff like that happens a lot and it impacts you on a number of levels for a long time. I experienced something like that in my twenties when a friend and I decided to go out one night after work. I stopped at an ATM and while withdrawing some money heard sounds behind me and saw the reflection of lights on the wall. I turned around to see two police officers with weapons drawn pointed at me ...I was 22 yo. Of course nothing ultimately came of it but it was traumatic and made for a long unpleasant night. My point is stuff like that happens often so I don?t think that incidences of that sort of treatment should be dismissed as false or overblown by people simply because it has never happened to them.

That said I did find the finale a bit too preachy, and that scene gmoney referenced where those two guys were talking "Oh, look it's Black Falcon!", "No, that's Captain America!" was one of the cringiest (sp) things I have seen in a long time, it was so bad I watched it twice bk I couldn?t believe they did that.

I do agree that Bucky was vastly underutilized and inexplicably nerfed. However I disagree with gmoney that he would have been better suited to take-up the Captain America mantle. Although the points he made about Bucky and his patriotism and super-soldier status are valid we also have to remember that at the end of Endgame Bucky was still a wanted man AND was possibly still very susceptible to mind control by whoever had that little red book or anyone that had memorized the sequence of those words. The point is at that point in time Bucky was still plagued by a lot of issues and baggage. Meanwhile Sam was also patriotic, let?s not forget he was also a combat veteran who volunteered to help Steve Rogers despite having no superpowers.

As for Sam taking over the mantle of Captain America, that can not just be dismissed as some MCU or Disney political agenda/virtue signaling or whatever. It was established in Marvel comics that Sam Wilson served as Captain America so it is simply inaccurate to diminish Sam?s tenure as Captain America as MCU political correctness.

I also hope that the MCU does more to develop Bucky?s character, I think he is potentially one of the most interesting characters in the current MCU and has much more to contribute to these stories than he has. I agree that he has been regulated to being a tertiary character since ?Captain America: The Winter Soldier? which is a shame. However I found it interesting that G referred to Bucky as being reduced to being the ?disposable white guy? in the show. I say that it is interesting because in the vast majority of films since the 1970?s it as been Black guys who have routinely served as the ?disposable (often dead) partner/friend? and this situation
is an outgrowth of unimaginative/lazy story telling but let?s not act like white guys being given that sort of status/place in Hollywood storylines is anywhere near ?a thing? at this point in time.

So overall I thought the show was pretty good but could have been much better.

As far as the Sam Wilson Captain America costume is concerned, I think it very much like his costume in the comics but I?m going to stick with my CW Falcon figure ...and I will continue to hope for a ZEMO!!

Btw pardon my typos I?m doing this on my cell and I suck at it.

Appreciate your lengthy insight into this Omega! And I just wanna say, wow, I'm sorry you had to experience that kind of mistreat/trauma back in your early 20s. That just sounds plain f'n terrible!

I'm all for exploring these difficult topics, however, in my opinion, I just don't think the writers/directors of this show handled it in a meaningful, competent way, which is quite unfortunate cause it could have been a major highlight of the show. Unfortunately to me and others, it just came off as shoehorned preachy and agenda driven.

Anyways, I did want to address a point you made about me implying MCU/Disney only made Sam the new Cap due to politics. That's not what I was implying. I know in the comics Sam eventually becomes Cap, but within the context of the world they have built in the MCU it only makes sense that Bucky becomes the next successor to Cap...and then later on if they wanted to explore Sam as Cap, then by all means go for it! I just felt they jumped the gun (skipped over Bucky) and rushed into it given the current political climate in the US right now. And if that decision was dictated by current real-life matters, then I would say that does indeed qualify as agenda driven.

I have no issues seeing Sam as the new Cap, but it definitely didn't feel like the natural choice in terms of organic storytelling to me. Anyways, I hope the writer/creative team going forward can flesh out a much better story because if the MCU continues down this path of mediocre storytelling (hated Captain Marvel, very tepid about WandaVision) I will unfortunately need to bow out the same way I exited from the DCEU, which could be a blessing in disguise ($$$ saved) since I ended up buying 0 figs from the Snyderverse since I disliked his vision so much (say what you will about the Snyder Cut, it's still not a good movie...entertaining, yes...but certainly not good).

 

[Centrocal]

My only problem with the show was that Carly Morganthal was a weak villain. She just didn't feel like a threat at all. Certainly not worthy of needing a super hero to stop her. Her grand plan essentially came down to "I'm gonna drive an armored car full of people off a cliff." Thats just not big enough for a closer. Meh. I didn't know any of the people in that car. I had no emotional attachment to any of them. There simply weren't enough stakes. The flagsmashers start off as this big organization but then get dwindled down to maybe five people. It didn't really feel like a big deal at all. They needed a bigger more recognizable villain, in an actual costume. All the energey and charisma of this show went out with Zemo and Walker.

Was really expecting them to bring in Torres as the new Falcon. They should've had him show up at the end. Guess they're saving that for the movie. but could have shown him fixing the wings or putting the suit on a least.

 

[gmoney5000]

Well Buckys redemption arc isn't complete yet. It would be very wierd imo to have a guy who was a agent who killed hundreds for some nazis become captain america. Even if they handwaved that away, he doesn't have nearly the confidence or charisma to be Cap. Bucky is a loner, hes not one to become a symbol for something, and hes got a lot of demons, some of which he hasn't even rid himself of yet. He was Steve's friend sure, he loved the country sure, but hes not only compromised hes damaged goods. Hes mentally damaged by his past experiences.

I can see the super solider serum being a help but I dont think thats necessary to wield the shield.

If you look at all of Buckys appearances it really wouldn't have fit his prior characterization for him to become Captain America. Hes not the type to inspire people or represent something, hes a great guy but thats not his thing, hasn't been since he was cured of his brainwashing which was less than 5 years ago for him. Down the line? Sure I'd like to see him get a shot at it or even for him and Sam to both do it but as he is now I dont see it.

I wasn't saying the Sam and Isaiah scene was the only reason Sam was a good fit, if anything that was an obstacle for same to overcome as Isaiah said he shouldn't do it. Sam is fit because he strives to understand people instead of just punching away his problems and he has a compassionate and sympathetic nature, but also a firm will to do the right thing above all else. Like Steve he has a moral code and hes willing to use outreach be the voice of reason to win his battles. I think the show did a good job of showcasing this.

If you feel that way then yes, Sam is the best choice to be Cap.

In terms of an interesting story, I think narratively it would be much more intriguing to see someone as flawed as Bucky try to make amends with himself and others by doing good through the mantle of Captain America. The struggle and internal turmoil/battle would make for something much more enthralling to watch on screen rather than someone who is good inside and out. It's part of the reason I find Superman to be such a boring, bland character! He's a boy scout and can do anything and everything, but doesn't! What's the fun in that? It's like watching paint dry!

Anyways, I still do feel that Bucky becoming Cap 2.0 would have been the most logical/organic decision within the confines of the MCU. It also would have created an interesting and potentially comical dynamic with Falcon having to reconcile that he has to work with (and to a certain extent learn to respect) someone he actually dislikes. All in all, from a story-driven standpoint I think Bucky should have been the guy.

You are free to disagree with me, but I hope you see things from my perspective at least.

 

[gmoney5000]

My only problem with the show was that Carly Morganthal was a weak villain. She just didn't feel like a threat at all. Certainly not worthy of needing a super hero to stop her. Her grand plan essentially came down to "I'm gonna drive an armored car full of people off a cliff." Thats just not big enough for a closer. Meh. I didn't know any of the people in that car. I had no emotional attachment to any of them. There simply weren't enough stakes. The flagsmashers start off as this big organization but then get dwindled down to maybe five people. It didn't really feel like a big deal at all. They needed a bigger more recognizable villain, in an actual costume. All the energey and charisma of this show went out with Zemo and Walker.

Was really expecting them to bring in Torres as the new Falcon. They should've had him show up at the end. Guess they're saving that for the movie. but could have shown him fixing the wings or putting the suit on a least.

Yeah, watching this show is akin to watching a balloon slowly deflate...just such a damn shame at how utterly dull and generic this show ended up being.

 

[Blackout]

Although I enjoyed the show more than gmoney and several others on this forum I agree that the first episode was the best. I also agree that important, painful, and complex issues like race/racism should have been handled better. Most of the time when dealing with racism (with few exceptions) the writing seemed rather clumsy and preachy rather than poignant and impactful. Of course that doesn?t mean that those issues should not have been explored on the show (they were brought up in the comics) but they need more thoughtful and less superficial treatment IMO.

That said, I know some people on this forum have expressed disapproval of the scene where Sam was harassed by two police officers, however stuff like that happens a lot and it impacts you on a number of levels for a long time. I experienced something like that in my twenties when a friend and I decided to go out one night after work. I stopped at an ATM and while withdrawing some money heard sounds behind me and saw the reflection of lights on the wall. I turned around to see two police officers with weapons drawn pointed at me ...I was 22 yo. Of course nothing ultimately came of it but it was traumatic and made for a long unpleasant night. My point is stuff like that happens often so I don?t think that incidences of that sort of treatment should be dismissed as false or overblown by people simply because it has never happened to them.

That said I did find the finale a bit too preachy, and that scene gmoney referenced where those two guys were talking "Oh, look it's Black Falcon!", "No, that's Captain America!" was one of the cringiest (sp) things I have seen in a long time, it was so bad I watched it twice bk I couldn?t believe they did that.

I do agree that Bucky was vastly underutilized and inexplicably nerfed. However I disagree with gmoney that he would have been better suited to take-up the Captain America mantle. Although the points he made about Bucky and his patriotism and super-soldier status are valid we also have to remember that at the end of Endgame Bucky was still a wanted man AND was possibly still very susceptible to mind control by whoever had that little red book or anyone that had memorized the sequence of those words. The point is at that point in time Bucky was still plagued by a lot of issues and baggage. Meanwhile Sam was also patriotic, let?s not forget he was also a combat veteran who volunteered to help Steve Rogers despite having no superpowers.

As for Sam taking over the mantle of Captain America, that can not just be dismissed as some MCU or Disney political agenda/virtue signaling or whatever. It was established in Marvel comics that Sam Wilson served as Captain America so it is simply inaccurate to diminish Sam?s tenure as Captain America as MCU political correctness.

I also hope that the MCU does more to develop Bucky?s character, I think he is potentially one of the most interesting characters in the current MCU and has much more to contribute to these stories than he has. I agree that he has been regulated to being a tertiary character since ?Captain America: The Winter Soldier? which is a shame. However I found it interesting that G referred to Bucky as being reduced to being the ?disposable white guy? in the show. I say that it is interesting because in the vast majority of films since the 1970?s it as been Black guys who have routinely served as the ?disposable (often dead) partner/friend? and this situation
is an outgrowth of unimaginative/lazy story telling but let?s not act like white guys being given that sort of status/place in Hollywood storylines is anywhere near ?a thing? at this point in time.

So overall I thought the show was pretty good but could have been much better.

As far as the Sam Wilson Captain America costume is concerned, I think it very much like his costume in the comics but I?m going to stick with my CW Falcon figure ...and I will continue to hope for a ZEMO!!

Btw pardon my typos I?m doing this on my cell and I suck at it.

thanks for your input
most of the people decrying and playing down the kinds of issues tackled in the show are the kinds of people who dont experience them and perpetuate them with their complacency and comfort with the status quo
i also agree they could have stuck the landing a bit better on their responses to some of the hard questions asked in the show
but there a couple posts in here that are only very thinly veiled

 

[Spanbauer]

Loving all of the lengthy points of view about the show this thread! It?s fun to hear everyone?s thoughts. But as to who should have taken up the mantle of Cap, I find myself agreeing with Toonstrack.

Well Buckys redemption arc isn't complete yet. It would be very wierd imo to have a guy who was a agent who killed hundreds for some nazis become captain america. Even if they handwaved that away, he doesn't have nearly the confidence or charisma to be Cap. Bucky is a loner, hes not one to become a symbol for something, and hes got a lot of demons, some of which he hasn't even rid himself of yet. He was Steve's friend sure, he loved the country sure, but hes not only compromised hes damaged goods. Hes mentally damaged by his past experiences.

I can see the super solider serum being a help but I dont think thats necessary to wield the shield.

If you look at all of Buckys appearances it really wouldn't have fit his prior characterization for him to become Captain America. Hes not the type to inspire people or represent something, hes a great guy but thats not his thing, hasn't been since he was cured of his brainwashing which was less than 5 years ago for him. Down the line? Sure I'd like to see him get a shot at it or even for him and Sam to both do it but as he is now I dont see it.

I wasn't saying the Sam and Isaiah scene was the only reason Sam was a good fit, if anything that was an obstacle for same to overcome as Isaiah said he shouldn't do it. Sam is fit because he strives to understand people instead of just punching away his problems and he has a compassionate and sympathetic nature, but also a firm will to do the right thing above all else. Like Steve he has a moral code and hes willing to use outreach be the voice of reason to win his battles. I think the show did a good job of showcasing this.

Faults of the show aside, I do think it succeeded at proving to the audience - by proving to Sam - that Steve made the right choice in making him his successor. Sam has always been a pure and righteous guy, and the show underscores that. Bucky is on his own path and is making progress but he could never be the next Steve Rogers what with what Hydra put him through.

 

[Omega9300]

Loving all of the lengthy points of view about the show this thread! It?s fun to hear everyone?s thoughts. But as to who should have taken up the mantle of Cap, I find myself agreeing with Toonstrack.


Faults of the show aside, I do think it succeeded at proving to the audience - by proving to Sam - that Steve made the right choice in making him his successor. Sam has always been a pure and righteous guy, and the show underscores that. Bucky is on his own path and is making progress but he could never be the next Steve Rogers what with what Hydra put him through.

I agree strongly with you and Toonstrack as to why it makes the most sense that Sam take over as Captain America at this point in time. That said, it in no way means that Bucky shouldn’t play a more important role in the MCU, I think he potentially has a very important/slash story to tell that is worthy of further development. Both Sam and Bucky are multi-dimensional interesting characters that deserve more development.

 

[Spanbauer]

I agree strongly with you and Toonstrack as to why it makes the most sense that Sam take over as Captain America at this point in time. That said, it in no way means that Bucky shouldn?t play a more important role in the MCU, I think he potentially has a very important/slash story to tell that is worthy of further development. Both Sam and Bucky are multi-dimensional interesting characters that deserve more development.

Agreed! What I like about these shows thus far is that they’ve dug deeper into the personal problems of these characters we love. Even if I think Bucky got sidelined, I still think the show succeeded in showing him overcome his demons, an important arc that sets him up for whatever comes next. Like Wanda’s loss of Vision, this felt like ground that needed to be covered but could never get the time it deserved in a feature film.

 

[Omega9300]

Appreciate your lengthy insight into this Omega! And I just wanna say, wow, I'm sorry you had to experience that kind of mistreat/trauma back in your early 20s. That just sounds plain f'n terrible!

I'm all for exploring these difficult topics, however, in my opinion, I just don't think the writers/directors of this show handled it in a meaningful, competent way, which is quite unfortunate cause it could have been a major highlight of the show. Unfortunately to me and others, it just came off as shoehorned preachy and agenda driven.

Anyways, I did want to address a point you made about me implying MCU/Disney only made Sam the new Cap due to politics. That's not what I was implying. I know in the comics Sam eventually becomes Cap, but within the context of the world they have built in the MCU it only makes sense that Bucky becomes the next successor to Cap...and then later on if they wanted to explore Sam as Cap, then by all means go for it! I just felt they jumped the gun (skipped over Bucky) and rushed into it given the current political climate in the US right now. And if that decision was dictated by current real-life matters, then I would say that does indeed qualify as agenda driven.

I have no issues seeing Sam as the new Cap, but it definitely didn't feel like the natural choice in terms of organic storytelling to me. Anyways, I hope the writer/creative team going forward can flesh out a much better story because if the MCU continues down this path of mediocre storytelling (hated Captain Marvel, very tepid about WandaVision) I will unfortunately need to bow out the same way I exited from the DCEU, which could be a blessing in disguise ($$$ saved) since I ended up buying 0 figs from the Snyderverse since I disliked his vision so much (say what you will about the Snyder Cut, it's still not a good movie...entertaining, yes...but certainly not good).

Thank you G and yeah superficial treatment of issues like racism and sexual violence are rarely intellectually satisfying. I appreciate the effort in this show to deal with racism (I suppose it would have felt odd if they did not) however as many have said here I think it could have been done better in a more meaningful manner.

Although I think Sam is a better successor to Steve Rogers as Captain America now for the reasons myself and others mentioned above, that doesn?t mean that I don?t think that Bucky wouldn?t make for a really interesting Captain America for some of the very reasons I mentioned that I think make Sam a better choice. I think Bucky having to deal with his past and his demons while being Captain America could make for some great story telling. I guess it is similar to why I felt that John Walker was compelling as Captain America. Even though Walker seems much too unpredictable, flawed, and not in control of his emotions enough to be Captain America, watching him try to live up to that massive responsibility was interesting. Ultimately I think Bucky (particularly now that the mind control element seems solved) would be really intriguing Captain America.

If Hot Toys makes a US Agent figure I?ll most likely get it.

 

[DioramaMaker]

I think it's made very clear that Bucky didn't want to take the mantle, didn't feel it right, and/or agreed with Steve about passing the shield to Sam (at least prior to the events of the show).

Bucky, at that time, still had traumas to overcome and needed to find his way in the world. He'd yet to get his reintroduction to modern society, being fresh off a snap and a Wakandan vacay. At this point, I don't think he'd be ready to take the mantle.

I'd much rather see Bucky reclaim the Winter Soldier title for himself and make it something good. That's part of his character, reclaiming identity and healing. Seeing as they've cut the therapist ties, I suspect he's "free" to act as he pleases. So he could totally be a free agent, or an avenger, or a thunderbolt...whatever. There's plenty of room.

And I say all this as someone who really ****ing likes Bucky. I think his trajectory is appropriate for the character.

 

[Khev]

That would get me to buy the concept Captain America headsculpt.

Oh wow you're right that would give us Evans in a black cowl wouldn't it!