General NBA Discussion

[Mamba]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Based off opinions. Facts say otherwise, sorry charlie.

What facts jack?

Facts could be twisted. I'll take NBA GM opinions over facts from the hater who think Gasol was a better player than Kobe

There must be a valid reason for this:

For 10 years, when GMs were asked which player should be taking the shot with a game on the line, Bryant received the most votes. This year, he did not.

10 years, not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, but 10

 

[Bodie The Cursed]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

His hard on for Kobe only means kobes doing a good job.

 

[jstep13]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Facts could be twisted. I'll take NBA GM opinions over facts from the hater who think Gasol was a better player than Kobe

There must be a valid reason for this:

For 10 years, when GMs were asked which player should be taking the shot with a game on the line, Bryant received the most votes. This year, he did not.

10 years, not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, but 10

lol @ arguing against facts.

Opinions can be twisted as well. All I know is that screen grab is abundantly clear. LeBron is more clutch than Kobe. You can try and talk your way out of it all you want.

 

[Mamba]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Tied for 8th seed! I hope Houston and GS lose tonight.

Utah lose, Houston lose hopefully GS will lose too.

Man 6th place is not out of reach now

Must win game tomorrow vs. Bulls at home.

 

[Mamba]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

lol @ arguing against facts.

Opinions can be twisted as well. All I know is that screen grab is abundantly clear. LeBron is more clutch than Kobe. You can try and talk your way out of it all you want.

Then you tell me why in 10 years NBA GMs picked Kobe over anyone else? Are you saying all the GMs don't know facts like you do

You who thinks Gasol was the lakers best player are more knowledgable than NBA GMs?

 

[jstep13]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

I like how you only focus on GM's. Who cares what GM's think? Maybe they don't like LeBron, maybe they buy into the LeBron isn't clutch argument. I don't know. All I know are facts. If you claim that facts can be manipulated then show me a statistic that says Kobe is more clutch than LeBron.

Show me. You won't because you can't.

Go ahead and base your argument off opinions. I'll base mine off statistical evidence.

Besides one thing to note to prove how skewered their opinions are, your article states:

If you go by true shooting percentage, the most clutch players over the last three years (minimum 100 FGA) have been Chauncey Billups (because he gets to the line so often), Jason Terry, Steve Nash, Manu Ginobili and … get ready for it … LeBron James.

Now if the GM's have only relinquished their most clutch title this past season when statistical evidence clearly shows otherwise for the past 3 seasons, then something is clearly wrong with their "opinion".

Even your own article is telling you YOU ARE WRONG.

 

[jstep13]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Another article that examines who the most clutch is since 2000:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2012...t-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

Bottom line, after manipulating the statistics many different ways, LeBron ranked ahead of Kobe in 7 of the 8 samples, including all three playoff samples...

One more thing to consider. If I'm a Kobe-hater and a LeBron-hater then wouldn't that make me less biased than someone who is a Laker homer? I couldn't care less who wins the clutch argument. All I know are facts are facts.

 

[Bodie The Cursed]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

another good day in laker land

 

[jstep13]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

What facts jack?

Scroll up a few posts from yours, Larry.

 

[Mamba]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

I like how you only focus on GM's. Who cares what GM's think? Maybe they don't like LeBron, maybe they buy into the LeBron isn't clutch argument. I don't know. All I know are facts. If you claim that facts can be manipulated then show me a statistic that says Kobe is more clutch than LeBron.

Show me. You won't because you can't.

Go ahead and base your argument off opinions. I'll base mine off statistical evidence.

Besides one thing to note to prove how skewered their opinions are, your article states:



Now if the GM's have only relinquished their most clutch title this past season when statistical evidence clearly shows otherwise for the past 3 seasons, then something is clearly wrong with their "opinion".

Even your own article is telling you YOU ARE WRONG.

Like I said stat is only one element to determine whether a player is clutch or not. If you go by stat alone by your logic Billups or Terry are more clutch than Kobe and Lebron? So if they all in the same team we can say a coach should pick them to take the last shot over Kobe or Lebron?

Another example: how many rings a player has is ONE stat/fact to determine the greatness of a player. By your logic if you are only focusing on ONE stat/fact, you can say Horry is better than Duncan? Pippen is better than Magic? The fact is there are many other variables involved.

Btw believe what you believe...I don't feel I am wrong on this, and I know you feel you are not wrong either, so just leave it at that. If you think you are more knowlegable than NBA GMs go right ahead

 

[Mamba]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Kobe's confidence, dedication and mentallity to do whatever it takes to win is a second to none among current NBA players, those also contribute to make him a clutch player. Unlike most NBA players he couldn't care less about his stats, he said it many times. Winning is all he cares.

Many players are afraid to miss including Howard as mentioned in the article below. Sometimes Lebron has the same issue as well, he is afraid to miss because he cares about his stat. Many times people feel Lebron should have not passed but take the last shots because he is the best player in his team. Kobe never afraid to miss.

Dwight Howard inspired by Kobe Bryant's dedication

https://www.latimes.com/sports/lake...ing-bryant-influence-20130309,0,5524524.story

"We talked and [Bryant] told me what he did when he had problems, and I see it for myself now," said Howard. "He was always saying, 'I get into the gym and shoot 5,000 shots.' To see it shows me how dedicated he is."

"I always tell him, 'I'm afraid to miss. So, when I get there, I don't want to miss, so I end up missing,'" Howard continued. "He was like, 'You know what, shoot 1,000 jump shots a day and you're going to miss a lot of those shots, but then you're teaching yourself that, hey, it's OK to miss.'"

"Now I see it," said Howard. "So [Bryant] gets out there and might miss a couple of threes, next thing you know he'll make nine threes in a row. You see it and it just kind of gives you more inspiration."

While the future remains uncertain with Howard in the final year of his contract, his time this season with the Lakers, and Kobe Bryant, has already impacted him significantly.

"I think this is a blessing for me, to experience the stuff that I've experienced this year. It's just going to make me a better man and a better player," said Howard. "Just from watching Kobe — this has been great for me. I wouldn't have it any other way."

 

[Mamba]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

This is another example NBA families including GMs, coaches or players don't just use stats alone to measure greatness or clutchness.

As a 76ers assistant coach, Tom Thibodeau used to pace a young Kobe Bryant through drills in Philadelphia.

"His greatness is well documented," Thibodeau said. "You measure it by the championships, his ability to perform at such a high level for such a long period. He's always adding something. He studies how he's being guarded."

Even having seen greatness at a young age, Thibodeau smiled when asked about Bryant's recent tear, including averages of 41.5 points and 12 assists in back-to-back comeback victories.

"It says a lot about his will," Thibodeau said. "To still be playing at the level that he's playing at, it's incredible really. He's doing everything — playmaking, shooting, playing defense, playing through injuries. He's a great leader because of what he does."

 

[Mamba]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Another article that examines who the most clutch is since 2000:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2012...t-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

Bottom line, after manipulating the statistics many different ways, LeBron ranked ahead of Kobe in 7 of the 8 samples, including all three playoff samples...

One more thing to consider. If I'm a Kobe-hater and a LeBron-hater then wouldn't that make me less biased than someone who is a Laker homer? I couldn't care less who wins the clutch argument. All I know are facts are facts.

Ok I just read this article, did you read the author's conclusion on his article? Even the author doesn't seem to agree with your conclusion

The author said:

In no way shape or form does this statistical look at who has performed well "in the clutch" in the NBA since 2000 definitively tell us which players are more clutch than others, because we still aren't clear on what "clutch" is, or whether it actually exists.

Statistics clearly cannot measure the fear Kobe Bryant puts into opposing teams when he disses Chris Rock on the bench of a playoff game, or the innate weakness shown by LeBron James every time he bites his nails.

The only thing we learn from these statistics is how often the insignificant event of the ball going through the hoop when a player shoots at the end of close games occurs.

 

[Lawrence]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Scroll up a few posts from yours, Larry.

I'd actually put more value into FGM in clutch situations, rather than FG%. I played around with the "Shot Finder" website you mentioned jstep, & came up with a few clutch scenarios which favor Kobe. So I wouldn't put too much value in articles cherry picking stats, & basically leaning towards FG% in the clutch as the measure for the better clutch player. Even the stat variables used to determine the best clutch player are subjective. Limiting a clutch situation to "the last 5 mins of the 4th & OT, with a margin of 5 points or less" is flawed right out of the gate

I think I'll side with the GM's decade old decision on this one jstep.

Edit: You went a bit Kobe crazy there for a bit didn't you Mamba

 

[Lawrence]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Fun stat for you jstep, because you seem to like them so much

This season, shots to tie the game or take the lead in the last 5 minutes of the 4th or OT in a winning effort.

Kobe 13 out of 18 shots made. FG% .722.
LeBron 11 out of 24 shots made. FG% .456.

See how silly cherry stat picking is

Okay that's enough. Back to the Lakers hunt for a playoff spot

 

[sarakawa]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

It is my opinion as well but nobody craves last second moments like Kobe. I'm not sure there is another player who actually WANTS all the pressure in late game situations as much as Kobe does. This was Lebrons problem in the past. He still doesn't seem to really like these moments but had grown to handle them much better. The most important thing to remember is...2.5 games out of 6th seed!!!!

 

[Mamba]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

I'd actually put more value into FGM in clutch situations, rather than FG%. I played around with the "Shot Finder" website you mentioned jstep, & came up with a few clutch scenarios which favor Kobe. So I wouldn't put too much value in articles cherry picking stats, & basically leaning towards FG% in the clutch as the measure for the better clutch player. Even the stat variables used to determine the best clutch player are subjective. Limiting a clutch situation to "the last 5 mins of the 4th & OT, with a margin of 5 points or less" is flawed right out of the gate

I think I'll side with the GM's decade old decision on this one jstep.

Edit: You went a bit Kobe crazy there for a bit didn't you Mamba

I was just trying to prove my points but it doesn't seem he gets it because he is just a hater. No matter what Kobe does it's just not good enough for him so I probably just wasting my time arguing with him We are arguing with the guy who said Gasol was a better player than Kobe, he probably still think Gasol is better than Kobe now lol, we will never win bro

He seems to like the facts so much how about these facts:

Kobe 5 Duncan 4
Lakers 17 Spurs 4

It is my opinion as well but nobody craves last second moments like Kobe. I'm not sure there is another player who actually WANTS all the pressure in late game situations as much as Kobe does. This was Lebrons problem in the past. He still doesn't seem to really like these moments but had grown to handle them much better. The most important thing to remember is...2.5 games out of 6th seed!!!!

I couldn't agree with you more bro

Here is the perfect example, but you are right Lebron is getting better in that area though, he seems to be more confident but still not as confident as Kobe.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tutioheFCV8[/ame]

 

[Bodie The Cursed]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Time to uncork some vino against Chi.. Grab hold of that spot and don't look back.

 

[jstep13]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

Like I said stat is only one element to determine whether a player is clutch or not. If you go by stat alone by your logic Billups or Terry are more clutch than Kobe and Lebron? So if they all in the same team we can say a coach should pick them to take the last shot over Kobe or Lebron?l

Well if stat is just one element like you say, what else is there that defines being clutch? Sportscenter highlights?

Another example: how many rings a player has is ONE stat/fact to determine the greatness of a player. By your logic if you are only focusing on ONE stat/fact, you can say Horry is better than Duncan? Pippen is better than Magic? The fact is there are many other variables involved.

Like you alluded to, anyone with any NBA acumen understands that rings alone do not determine greatness because of all the different variables involved. Winning rings is not in a vacuum in of itself. However the ability to judge who is clutch is when we can set black and white parameters such as shots to win or tie with less than 5 minutes left in regulation or overtime is.

Kobe's confidence, dedication and mentallity to do whatever it takes to win is a second to none among current NBA players, those also contribute to make him a clutch player. Unlike most NBA players he couldn't care less about his stats, he said it many times. Winning is all he cares.

Many players are afraid to miss including Howard as mentioned in the article below. Sometimes Lebron has the same issue as well, he is afraid to miss because he cares about his stat. Many times people feel Lebron should have not passed but take the last shots because he is the best player in his team. Kobe never afraid to miss.

This is another example NBA families including GMs, coaches or players don't just use stats alone to measure greatness or clutchness.

As a 76ers assistant coach, Tom Thibodeau used to pace a young Kobe Bryant through drills in Philadelphia.

So let me get this straight: guys who either currently play or have coached Kobe say Kobe is clutch? What a revelation! Do you really think that Dwight Howard is going to come out and say Kobe isn't clutch? Or that LeBron, Kobe's rival, is more clutch? Or that an ex-coach is going to say Kobe's isn't clutch? C'mon now, let's consider the source

Ok I just read this article, did you read the author's conclusion on his article? Even the author doesn't seem to agree with your conclusion

The author said:

In no way shape or form does this statistical look at who has performed well "in the clutch" in the NBA since 2000 definitively tell us which players are more clutch than others, because we still aren't clear on what "clutch" is, or whether it actually exists.

Statistics clearly cannot measure the fear Kobe Bryant puts into opposing teams when he disses Chris Rock on the bench of a playoff game, or the innate weakness shown by LeBron James every time he bites his nails.

The only thing we learn from these statistics is how often the insignificant event of the ball going through the hoop when a player shoots at the end of close games occurs.

Fair enough, I read that part too, however if the author doesn't consider to be the end all be all of clutchness, then what was the point of writing it or publishing the results? And if we both agree there is more to clutchness than what the author published, it still doesn't take away the fact that LeBron was measured to be more clutch than 7 out of 8 samples. So again I ask what else can be used, if stats don't paint the picture, as empirical evidence to determine one's clutchness? I'm asking you. What are you basing your opinion on when you say Kobe is more clutch than Lebron? Other than your homerism?

I'd actually put more value into FGM in clutch situations, rather than FG%. I played around with the "Shot Finder" website you mentioned jstep, & came up with a few clutch scenarios which favor Kobe.

Sure, if you're talking about volume shooting, absolutely Kobe has more clutch FGM than LeBron but remind me again how many seasons has Kobe played versus LeBron? I bet Kobe has more minutes, games played and FGA than LeBron too...

Fun stat for you jstep, because you seem to like them so much

This season, shots to tie the game or take the lead in the last 5 minutes of the 4th or OT in a winning effort.

Kobe 13 out of 18 shots made. FG% .722.
LeBron 11 out of 24 shots made. FG% .456.

See how silly cherry stat picking is

Okay that's enough. Back to the Lakers hunt for a playoff spot

Can you link me this information? Because what I find is wholly different. In this article the author finds that LeBron is indeed more clutch THIS SEASON than Kobe. So unless you made a mistake in calculation or are fibbing then I can't comment.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ally-clutch-players-of-the-2012-13-nba-season

He seems to like the facts so much how about these facts:

Kobe 5 Duncan 4
Lakers 17 Spurs 4

Remind me again how many of those rings did Kobe win without a dominant big man? I wonder how many rings Kobe would have won with a past-his-prime David Robinson or a pre-prime Tony Parker with practically no substantial free agent help? Conversely, I sometimes wonder how many rings Duncan could have won with a prime Shaq or prime Gasol with an endless amount of money and carte blanch free agency...

 

[Bodie The Cursed]

Re: NBA 2012-2013

you sound jealous