Shawpaw
Super Freak
The whole LeBron announcement was disgusting. I like sports but that was just stupid. I literally stopped watching ESPN regularly after that. Disgusting I tell you.
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DinoDB1975
Super Freak
"The Decision", while bad form, was over five years ago. The people it really affected, Cleveland, got over it.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that Lebron is the GOAT. But he's definitely in the top ten, if not the top five of all time. He's get's more crap that than he really deserves, IMO (<---while it's pretty obvious that anything that anyone posts is the poster's opinion only, I still feel the need to throw in this caveat/qualifier, as some take exception to other's opinions).
I don't think anyone here is arguing that Lebron is the GOAT. But he's definitely in the top ten, if not the top five of all time. He's get's more crap that than he really deserves, IMO (<---while it's pretty obvious that anything that anyone posts is the poster's opinion only, I still feel the need to throw in this caveat/qualifier, as some take exception to other's opinions).
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Definitely top 10 and if we're talking pure talent, probably #1, I'll give him that but if we're talking GOAT we have to take his overall scope and body of work into consideration. I'll give him top 10 easy but with him now possibly facing a 2-5 Finals record, it's gonna be tough to overcome that stigma. No one in the top 10 has that poor of a track record and while 7 Finals is a helluva accomplishment, it can't be ignored that it came at the expense of the historically awful East coupled with his insistence on having the best teams money can buy surrounding him...
The core players in Chicago were all drafted. Everyone else brought in were supporting cast members. Without MJ and Pip in particular, you have zero championships in Chicago. Bron, Wade, and Bosh all made a pact to sign with Miami when they were free agents. This was obviously done because they wanted to outright buy a championship. That's the main reason I don't count the championships they won together. The Bulls sucked for a few years while MJ waited for some real ballers to get drafted. I give props to MJ (and other players such as Dirk, Hakeem, and Robinson) for sticking it out with the team that drafted them and eventually winning a championship(s).
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Cleveland got over it because of "The Return". If he stayed in Miami, I don't think it would be water under the bridge of most peeps in Cleveland.
I was never a big Lebron fan. He hypes himself way too much and didn't win a thing before he bailed on Cleveland and joined Miami to get his ring or two. That all said, I will give him major props if the Cavs bump off GS. That is no small feat and there's no doubt he'll be a HUGE part of that if it happens. Winning a championship for the team that believed in you, and drafted you, is always special IMO.
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Lebron James--the Peyton Manning of basketball
Before say the late 90s, teams EARNED championships...now, they can be bought so to speak. Still, if you look at the best TEAMS that have won recently, San Antonio and GS, they were built through the draft. Even if CLE wins, they still bought back Lebron and then brought Love in(despite that being a mistake IMO) trying to make another super team. I still much prefer GS wins since they are the better team to me and built like teams were built back in the day...through the draft. I don't think anyone can argue Lebron's talent and I do think he is top 10 alltime but I agree, there are a dozen players I would rather have shooting the last shot in a game so I don't think you can argue GOAT. He will never surpass MJ, esp with how many times he's lost in the finals.
Pretty much spot on.
I'm biased being from Chicago, but in the time I've been watching basketball (since about the mid 70's), I haven't seen any player that can come close to touching MJ. He should have been named MVP every year since about '88. If Magic feels comfortable calling MJ the GOAT, I'm not gonna argue with him.
Was it any different with those Lakers teams in the '80s?
DinoDB1975
Super Freak
It seems like a lot of us are all around the same age...like I posted before, my formative NBA were the late 80's/early 90's. I grew up on Jordan, and loved the Riley Knick teams...just wanted to see someone be able to stand up to Jordan. The Lakers beget the Celtics, who beget the Pistons, who beget the Bulls, who beget the Rockets (you could probably add the Spurs to that as well).
One thing I'm not though, is a sports "purist" (<--this might not be the right word for it, but it's the best I could think of). I have no issue with players leaving and creating their own destiny. These players make the team owners a ***** ton of money, and have the right to do what's best for them. Just like in the real world: why would I continue to work for an employer who doesn't maximize my full potential?
I know the Decision was bad form, and rankled a lot of fans. Coincidentally, I was in Cleveland/Akron the night the Decision happened (en route to Des Moines, IA), and read Dan Gilbert's butt hurt letter on the internet afterwards. But I do agree that time heals all wounds, and that Cleveland would have gotten over it, even if Lebron didn't come back last year (I think Lebron would have come back anyways, as Cleveland, and more specifically Akron, OH, is part of his makeup).
I see Lebron going away to Miami akin to him leaving for college, which, of course, he never did. He wasn't ready to carry the burden of the hopes and dreams of an entire city yet, and had to go away to get some perspective. Was it the easier road? Sure. Y'all mentioned that Michael Jordan had Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, both drafted by Bulls (Actually, Pippin wasn't drafted by the Bulls; he was picked fifth overall by Seattle and then traded to the Bulls for Olden Polynice and draft picks). But Cleveland was never going to be able to build a supporting cast around Lebron. After Lebron was drafted, here are Cleveland's picks: 10, 55, 42, 25, 19, 46, 30, and 54. Sure, Cleveland could have possibly struck gold with one of those picks, but it's not likely.
I enjoy watching Lebron play. And I root for him to suceed. I'm not ashamed to admit that. I haven't been wowed by any NBA player since Jordan as much as I am about Lebron.
One thing I'm not though, is a sports "purist" (<--this might not be the right word for it, but it's the best I could think of). I have no issue with players leaving and creating their own destiny. These players make the team owners a ***** ton of money, and have the right to do what's best for them. Just like in the real world: why would I continue to work for an employer who doesn't maximize my full potential?
I know the Decision was bad form, and rankled a lot of fans. Coincidentally, I was in Cleveland/Akron the night the Decision happened (en route to Des Moines, IA), and read Dan Gilbert's butt hurt letter on the internet afterwards. But I do agree that time heals all wounds, and that Cleveland would have gotten over it, even if Lebron didn't come back last year (I think Lebron would have come back anyways, as Cleveland, and more specifically Akron, OH, is part of his makeup).
I see Lebron going away to Miami akin to him leaving for college, which, of course, he never did. He wasn't ready to carry the burden of the hopes and dreams of an entire city yet, and had to go away to get some perspective. Was it the easier road? Sure. Y'all mentioned that Michael Jordan had Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, both drafted by Bulls (Actually, Pippin wasn't drafted by the Bulls; he was picked fifth overall by Seattle and then traded to the Bulls for Olden Polynice and draft picks). But Cleveland was never going to be able to build a supporting cast around Lebron. After Lebron was drafted, here are Cleveland's picks: 10, 55, 42, 25, 19, 46, 30, and 54. Sure, Cleveland could have possibly struck gold with one of those picks, but it's not likely.
I enjoy watching Lebron play. And I root for him to suceed. I'm not ashamed to admit that. I haven't been wowed by any NBA player since Jordan as much as I am about Lebron.
From Lebron's standpoint, I don't blame him leaving Cleveland. It was a rational decision for him, as he wanted some success, and as you say, he probably wanted to get away from home for awhile. But sports isn't rational for fans, so I can also understand how Cleveland fans would feel like it was a gut punch. And to do it the way he did it must have made it hurt that much more. One thing that's funny in hindsight is that he sounds like he is so full of hubris, "taking his talents" to Miami. But I found out later he was just imitating Kobe Bryant, who did it earlier when he decided to skip college. And from that POV, it's a bit less offensive.
But Lebron's got a celebrity personality that rubs me the wrong way, as many do. He comes across as very staged and polished oftentimes. Plus, he has so many natural physical gifts, that you know he never had to work as hard as smaller guys without natural skills who had to spend countless hours just trying to even the playing field with guys of his ilk. That's the stuff that makes it hard for me to root for the guy, but he seems nice enough. He's no Latrell Spreewell. And I'm sure he does more charitable good work than most could ever accomplish in a lifetime (obviously, since he has the means). And maybe some of that is PR, but so what. On balance, he's no better or worse than your typical NBA player. But his physicality--like he was crafted in the womb to be a basketball player--makes it easy for some to dislike the guy IMO. And guys with great skills tend to attract annoying, front runner fans, which also brings more heat indirectly to the guy from other fans
But Lebron's got a celebrity personality that rubs me the wrong way, as many do. He comes across as very staged and polished oftentimes. Plus, he has so many natural physical gifts, that you know he never had to work as hard as smaller guys without natural skills who had to spend countless hours just trying to even the playing field with guys of his ilk. That's the stuff that makes it hard for me to root for the guy, but he seems nice enough. He's no Latrell Spreewell. And I'm sure he does more charitable good work than most could ever accomplish in a lifetime (obviously, since he has the means). And maybe some of that is PR, but so what. On balance, he's no better or worse than your typical NBA player. But his physicality--like he was crafted in the womb to be a basketball player--makes it easy for some to dislike the guy IMO. And guys with great skills tend to attract annoying, front runner fans, which also brings more heat indirectly to the guy from other fans
DinoDB1975
Super Freak
Right on.
The celebrity personality is representative of his generation, as well as social media. Kobe has it, Melo has it, hell, I can't think of any current NBA superstar that doesn't have this celebrity personality. I got the book "Rare Air" about Jordan when it first came out in the early/mid 90's (still have it). In the book there was a passage that described Jordan as furious when media reported the birth of his first son. He wanted his privacy. Now, pro athletes want/need to be in the media 24/7.
Tim Duncan! And a bunch of those guys from Turkey, the Balkans, etc. But it's an exception, obviously.
DinoDB1975
Super Freak
See, Timmy is so unassuming that I totally forgot about him.
EIDT: Can add Kawhi, too.
EIDT: Can add Kawhi, too.
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Robopredinator
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Failed to see my point. Jordan didn't run away to another team and formed a super team with Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.
Robopredinator
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Eh, it still really doesn't bother me. Anytime a big name player is in free-agency, every team's moves are on hold until they announce it. I'm sure he thought long and hard about it. If I were him I wouldn't have came to a quick decision to appease the crowds. If you are OK with a press-conference is the issue only the show?
They broke into every local channel in Ohio for that embarrassing ****
DinoDB1975
Super Freak
Alright, time for predictions:
I'm firmly in the camp that with a healthy Kevin Love and a healthy Kyrie Irving last year, the Cavs would have beat the Warriors for the championship. But we will never know.
Cleveland is at full strength this year, and have added another shooter in Channing Frye. But the problem is the GS is a better team than they were last year. They now have championship experience, and being down 3-1 to OKC, they've had to deal with adversity.
My hearts wants Cleveland to win, but my head says GS in 6 or 7 games. And unfortunately, there will be more ammunition to use against Lebron. Hopefully, I am proven wrong, and will GLADLY eat crow.
I'm firmly in the camp that with a healthy Kevin Love and a healthy Kyrie Irving last year, the Cavs would have beat the Warriors for the championship. But we will never know.
Cleveland is at full strength this year, and have added another shooter in Channing Frye. But the problem is the GS is a better team than they were last year. They now have championship experience, and being down 3-1 to OKC, they've had to deal with adversity.
My hearts wants Cleveland to win, but my head says GS in 6 or 7 games. And unfortunately, there will be more ammunition to use against Lebron. Hopefully, I am proven wrong, and will GLADLY eat crow.
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Robopredinator
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I'm not sure I'd go that far regarding having Love and Irving last year. Personally, I think Kevin Love is overrated and he will fall off the map in the Finals. Hell, he has been absent in the fourth in crucial games in this playoff series.
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