Shawpaw
Super Freak
Oh man haha this is going to be fun.
General NBA Discussion
- Thread starter Bodie The Cursed
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It sure can be fun.......
For everyone who thinks my questions are about Lebron v Jordan here are some stats on the Wikipedia site to save the trouble.
Upon reading them James has a pretty impressive resume
https://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Michael_Jordan
https://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_LeBron_James
For everyone who thinks my questions are about Lebron v Jordan here are some stats on the Wikipedia site to save the trouble.
Upon reading them James has a pretty impressive resume
https://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Michael_Jordan
https://https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_LeBron_James
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Exactly. Russel himself said MJ was the GOAT. Think about that. A man who won 11 titles and is considered by many to be the greatest himself publicly has stated MJ is the best he's ever seen.
The Celtics, Pistons, and Bulls destroyed the dreams of many HOFers. There's an argument to be made that Hakeem wouldn't even have a ring if MJ didn't retire. He easily could have been added to the list of HOFers that were denied rings by those 3 teams. Their dominance spanned about 15 years. Oh, and by the way, Clyde did win a ring with Hakeem. It was in '95 when the Rockets swept Shaq's Magic 4-0 in the finals.
Ok...... Not clear on the point. The guys mentioned either didn't win a championship or had limited championship wins and are all time greats / 50 greatest players yada, yada, yada.....I am still trying to understand the criteria to be one of the greats for some people. Based on accomplishments to date, I'd consider Lebron in same breath as players mentioned as all time greats. Being I don't necessarily agree with the term GOAT, I gave up trying to understand folks criteria for that beyond popular opinion
Haha definitely not pissed, just simplifying my point. People may have different criteria but when it comes down to it, the vast majority would be that Jordan is GOAT and really that's my point, nothing else.
The only fair way to do it is with stats. Look up the PER (player efficiency rating) of players. That'll give you a measure of most of the players we consider great. The PER rating goes as far back as to include the NBA careers of Wilt, Pettit, Neil Johnston, Oscar Robertson, Gervin, etc...the list includes players that date back to the 50's. The list includes most of the players we consider to be legends of the game.
PER strives to measure a player's per-minute performance, while adjusting for pace. A league-average PER is always 15.00, which permits comparisons of player performance across seasons.
PER takes into account accomplishments, such as field goals, free throws, 3-pointers, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals, and negative results, such as missed shots, turnovers and personal fouls. The formula adds positive stats and subtracts negative ones through a statistical point value system. The rating for each player is then adjusted to a per-minute basis so that, for example, substitutes can be compared with starters in playing time debates. It is also adjusted for the team's pace. In the end, one number sums up the players' statistical accomplishments for that season or the players career.
I copied the above definition of PER ratings off the net. I'm too lazy to try and boil it down and write it myself.
MJ's PER is 27.91 for his career. Now keep in mind that his PER also includes his time in Washington in which he was clearly a shell of his former self and recorded the 2 worst PER ratings of his career. His PER was 29.1 in his 13 years with the Bulls (obviously, the prime of his career). Take either PER (I choose to ignore his 2 seasons in Washington), and he is at the very top of the list. Now the biggest knock against PER is that it's skewed to measure offensive production and does little to give credit to players on the defensive side of the ball (this is what mainly hurts great defensive stalwarts such as Russel). However, given MJ's phenomenal defensive presence, it's a moot point. Also, most of the top PER players played well on both sides of the ball. Most of these guys are in the HOF. Ironically enough, the 2nd best PER player is LeBron at 27.65 for his career so far. This shows just how productive he is when he's on the floor. However, as we all know, career accomplishments play a HUGE role in how we perceive players. I'm not even going to bother putting up LeBron's NBA accomplishments and compare them to MJ's. MJ's stats and accomplishments are well documented. However, take away the mystique, championships, clutch shots, and leadership. Boil it down just to productivity/efficiency for minutes played on the floor. MJ is still king of the hill.
Speaking of GOAT...breaking news, the LEGENDARY Muhammad Ali has just passed away. Sad news for his family and all of his fans. RIP Muhammad.
You are right, it's completely subjective but like others have mentioned, not only has other all-time greats say that MJ is GOAT but the majority of media, pundits, and fans (both his fans and haters) can all agree that he's the greatest. Sure there's always 1 of 10 dentists who do not recommend Colgate, but when almost 95% of the population, who can't even agree what the weather is like outside, all agree MJ is GOAT then I don't know what to say. I mean, there's still people who believe the Earth is flat (look 'em up on youtube). That's how we see people who don't say MJ is GOAT
For me to be consider GOAT, I look at rings, stats, level of competition, talent (offense/defensive skill set) and x-factor (i.e. leadership, BB IQ, clutchness). Cumulatively, MJ has all of his competitors, both past and present, beaten.
But, playing devil's advocate, if MJ isn't GOAT, then who in your eyes is?
He retired in what.. October... then announces he will play Baseball a couple months later..... Why not go back to basketball?
I don't know why you think I said Jordan isn't the GOAT. I don't why you are rambling on about this getting so upset. I said Jordan is one of the GOATs today, but is placed on too high of a pedestal. He is overrated, that doesn't mean he can't be a GOAT. People view him as too great of player...
How can Jordan be GOAT after all those first round exits and how can Jordan be GOAT when he doesn't have the most rings? See, I can do the same thing. Just stop with Jordan. Every reply to me you cry about Jordan. It is comical how upset you are to bring up Brady. You are disrespectful to the game to call Brady "one step above average."
No...... my history of sports knowledge... actually history in general.... is greater than all of you. You like Jordan more than I like Brady
I addressed most of your questions in the PM you sent me. Let's just say we'll NEVER see eye to eye on this subject and leave it at that. It's difficult to have a conversation about an era of basketball you weren't able to watch with your own eyes. This has felt like listening to you review a movie from just watching trailers or movie clips on YouTube. It doesn't work for me.
I mentioned earlier I don't believe in the term GOAT because the game and players have changed / evolved throughout time. No one will ever know if Russell and the Celtics would be as great today as they were in their era or if Curry and the Warriors would had a 70+ win season in the 80's etc.
If I were to pick I'd go by GOTG (greatest of their generation) meaning Russell, Magic, Jordan, Kobe etc. would rule their generations. Again it's subjective but also based on accomplishments, stats, rings etc..
Darth Madden
You Are A Tooooooy!!!
Bingo. Different eras, different rules, different players. Like I said before the best you can even do is say a player was the best of their era.
Michael Jordan could play in any league, any era, any rules. I can't confidently say that about many players. Saying different rules/eras/planets/alternate universes etc is just a cop out...
Heck there's even video of MJ playing in the 1920's as the first black Harlem Globetrotter...
https://sportsmockery.com/2015/09/the-first-black-harlem-globetrotter-sweet-river-baines-video/
Heck there's even video of MJ playing in the 1920's as the first black Harlem Globetrotter...
https://sportsmockery.com/2015/09/the-first-black-harlem-globetrotter-sweet-river-baines-video/
HulkCollector
Freaked Out
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Long time golden state warrior fan here. Steven curry is probably the best player ever.
My All Time Starting 5
PG Magic Johnson
SG Michael Jordan
SF LeBron James
PF Tim Duncan
C Kareem
My All Time Top 10
1. Kareem
2. Tim Duncan
3. Michael Jordan
4. Kobe
5. Magic Johnson
6. Shaq
7. Bill Russell
8. LeBron James
9. Larry Bird
10. Wilt Chamberlain
Note: 2-4 is interchangeable to me. Bill and Wilt are ranked lower due to the era they played in.
Also, if/when LeBron gets 5-6 rings, he will be the unquestioned GOAT.
PG Magic Johnson
SG Michael Jordan
SF LeBron James
PF Tim Duncan
C Kareem
My All Time Top 10
1. Kareem
2. Tim Duncan
3. Michael Jordan
4. Kobe
5. Magic Johnson
6. Shaq
7. Bill Russell
8. LeBron James
9. Larry Bird
10. Wilt Chamberlain
Note: 2-4 is interchangeable to me. Bill and Wilt are ranked lower due to the era they played in.
Also, if/when LeBron gets 5-6 rings, he will be the unquestioned GOAT.
DinoDB1975
Super Freak
I agree 100% with your cop out statement. MJ can play in any era and he'd be a dominant player.
All the greats could have played in any era.
Darth Madden
You Are A Tooooooy!!!
That's the cop out because there is absolutely no way to prove it.
Is he going to play until he is in his 50s? Based on his current championship production that's going to take him another close to 20 years to get 3 more let alone 4.
Exactly.....the bigger cop out is making statements that'll never be proven X player could play in any era and dominate versus taking actual factual information. But to each their own....
I enjoy your gusto HulkCollector....Curry would bury many of the "greatest" "GOAT" in a shooting contest for certain....
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