Hot Toys- Batman Begins:Batman Demon & Scarecrow spec and pics

[karamazov80]

They've deliberately produced a very limited run

How is 4,000 a "very limited run?" That's nearly as many Snake Eyes figures as Sideshow produced (including exclusives), and nearly half the number of Darth Vaders produced.

We don't know HT's production runs, but damn. 4,000 seems like a lot to me.

 

[haytil]

They're based in HK. Their "fan base" is first and foremost in Asia.

Do you have any sales numbers to back that up, or are you just assuming that their "fan base" is first and foremost in Asia simply because that's where they're based?

Again, they're a HK based company. People over in Asia disagree with you about HT products being "limited" since they have no problem getting them. You complaining about a foreign company not catering to your needs in America is like Australians complaining about an American based company not catering to people down there.

Hot Toys may be registered and physically located in HK, but they are an international company. They do business internationally, a significant portion of their customers are international, and they deal with international characters, licenses, movies, etc.

An international customer has just as much a right to complain about them as a HK customer. An international customer is justified in expecting equal treatment to a HK customer.

Its always the same. When you are on top you are the ass. You can do what you want this is a rule.

Just because you can do something, it does not follow that you should do that thing, nor does it make it right.

BTW in Germany you always have to pay these high prices for HT (around 200-250$ is usual for us). You should be grateful that you get at least the chance to buy most of the figs for a decent price. Same for Sideshow...

Does that increased price simply reflect the increased costs of international shipping and import taxes from your country?

If so, then that's reasonable.

Nobody can reasonably expect something to cost the same abroad as it does in HK where it is produced - shipping and import add to the cost, and nobody can reasonably expect HT to accept less profit per sale abroad than they do locally.

But that does not mean it's OK to gouge customers more than the extra costs of shipping and import, just because you can.

 

[haytil]

How is 4,000 a "very limited run?" That's nearly as many Snake Eyes figures as Sideshow produced (including exclusives), and nearly half the number of Darth Vaders produced.

We don't know HT's production runs, but damn. 4,000 seems like a lot to me.

4000 figures, for the entire world, is a very small number. No, we don't know HT's production runs, but it seems fairly clear to me that they produce a lot more than 4000 figures in their runs for other figures (there were a hell of a lot more than 4000 Batman, Joker, and Two-Face figures).

Like people have said, the supply and demand show just how limited the run is. If the supply was anything near adequate, you wouldn't see the price at nearly double MSRP.

We also know that HT has deliberately limited the availability and production numbers of these figures - they've said as much themselves, and done so proudly.

And the problem isn't the number of figures produced alone - it's also the deliberate choice to restrict the distribution channels. The two deliberate effects, in concert, have created this situation which have justifiably ticked off many of their customers.

Of course, I may be wrong in the long run - if 4000 is indeed enough to meet demand without the ridiculous price hike (i.e., the price falls down much closer to MSRP levels), then I'll withdraw my criticism about their deliberately limited production run. We'll see if that happens.

But I fear I'm right (and no matter what, I think that at least my criticism of their restriction on the distribution channels will remain justified).

 

[SSC EX Hunter]

Devil why did u refer to it as leaky pee-pee bats?

 

[Devil_666]

Do you have any sales numbers to back that up, or are you just assuming that their "fan base" is first and foremost in Asia simply because that's where they're based?

Hot Toys may be registered and physically located in HK, but they are an international company. They do business internationally, a significant portion of their customers are international, and they deal with international characters, licenses, movies, etc.

An international customer has just as much a right to complain about them as a HK customer. An international customer is justified in expecting equal treatment to a HK customer.

Pretty simple deduction. They release ALL their stuff in Asia first. They routinely release stuff that's ONLY marketed and distributed in Asia like 20th Century Boys Friend, Asia Exclusives like the Anicom Scar Predator, M-Icon figures of Wong Ka Kui, Man Suit for Tony Stark, etc.

When HT starts releasing figures that are ONLY marketed and distributed in the U.S. and nowhere else (like they routinely do in Asia) then I'll agree with that.

Devil why did u refer to it as leaky pee-pee bats?

Read the DX Batman thread and you'll see why. Old joke.

 

[haytil]

Pretty simple deduction. They release ALL their stuff in Asia first.

That simply reflects the fact that their development and production facilities are in Asia - of course it would tend to spread out from the source, so Asia gets the first release.

On a related note, I remember when the DX figures were coming out, in three waves. First, the HK wave. Then the larger HK/Asian wave. Finally, the international wave. I seem to recall the number of figures in each wave being progressively larger - meaning they probably make more sales of those figures internationally.

Also, they utilized this release policy to help steer and correct their QC issues, which makes sense - release your first production runs locally, so if there are issues, they are spotted sooner and corrected much more easily. I'm sure this is another factor in their decision to release in Asia first (rather than simultaneously or even internationally first).

They routinely release stuff that's ONLY marketed and distributed in Asia like 20th Century Boys Friend, Asia Exclusives like the Anicom Scar Predator, M-Icon figures of Wong Ka Kui, Man Suit for Tony Stark, etc.

I think that's more a comment on the nature of the fanbase in Asia, rather than the importance or relative significance of their Asian fanbase versus their international fanbase.

I didn't know what you meant by "20th Century Boys Friend" and "Wong Ka Mui." Looking them up, I can see they are figures related very specifically to Asian cultural products. They probably don't release these internationally simply because most of us wouldn't care or buy them, which makes sense.

The Predator figure doesn't jive with that theory, but I do believe the Man Suit for Tony Stark does. As a collector, I get the sense that "Men in Suits" and general, well-tailored 1/6 clothing is much more accepted and enjoyed by Asian collectors. On the other hand, Western collectors are more exclusively interested in characters and specifically cool outfits. They don't care so much about fashion in their action figures. There's also the whole "playing with dolls" thing that tends to make Western collectors more uncomfortable, which plays into why they don't really go for just 1/6 suits.

So I don't think that those products (perhaps with the exception of Predator) are kept in Asia because there's a larger HT fanbase in Asia - I think it's because the fanbase that wants those specific kinds of products are in Asia. But in general, without knowing how much of those smaller release products they sell, you can't really determine that their Asian fanbase is any more significant or larger than their international fanbase.

When HT starts releasing figures that are ONLY marketed and distributed in the U.S. and nowhere else (like they routinely do in Asia) then I'll agree with that.

Again, that's just about the nature of the fanbase. Asian collectors tend to be much more inclusive about the kinds of 1/6 figures they collect - because Asian culture imports and consumes a lot of Western cultural products. But the reverse doesn't happen nearly as often or freely.

They love things like Hollywood movies as much as we do. But we don't tend to care about Asian cultural products nearly as much.

So it makes sense that they have released all their international products locally as well, and that there would be no such thing as an internationally released exclusive figure, since it would sell just as well in Asia.




Don't get me wrong - I think they are treating their international customers as being less important, with this whole Scarecrow/Bat-Demon debacle. But I don't think either of us have the authority to say that it's justified because we aren't as significant as their Asian fanbase. We just don't have the numbers to back that up.

 

[karamazov80]

4000 figures, for the entire world, is a very small number.

. . .


Like people have said, the supply and demand show just how limited the run is. If the supply was anything near adequate, you wouldn't see the price at nearly double MSRP.

We also know that HT has deliberately limited the availability and production numbers of these figures - they've said as much themselves, and done so proudly.

No one apart from people with too much money and too little patience are paying the double MSRP of the eBay listings, and even those BINs are a function of the figures just being released. You can't use that as a judge of value, even of preliminary value when no one is buying.

As for being well more than 4,000 of the Dark Knight figures and HT deliberately limiting the exclusives, we have no way at all of knowing if that is the case, because they don't release production numbers for those other figures. But to say that the demand for a 3rd string Batman villain--packaged with a useless Batman variant that jacks up its price, no less--is half as popular as an amazing version of Star Wars' flagship character (released to the entire world no less) is a bit off target IMO.

Look at Sideshow's edition sizes for anything they produce--figures or statues--then tell me that 4,000 is a "very limited quantity." I know these are 2 different companies that produce different products, but Sideshow's production numbers are the best comparison available. Saying that "4000 figures, for the entire world, is a very small number" based on nothing but intuition isn't a very convincing argument to me.

 

[Shep]

4000 IS alot considering alot of the Sideshow exclusive products are limited to around 200/300 worldwide...I really want this set, but I am hoping they drop to $350-$400...$550 plus is alittle steep atm.

 

[haytil]

No one apart from people with too much money and too little patience are paying the double MSRP of the eBay listings, and even those BINs are a function of the figures just being released. You can't use that as a judge of value, even of preliminary value when no one is buying.

I hope you're right, and part of me suspects that you might be and that the price will eventually fall to MSRP-like levels, especially as a few more channels open up.

But the way HT has said they expect to sell out on their Toy-Hunters reservation/pre-order process makes me worried.

As for being well more than 4,000 of the Dark Knight figures and HT deliberately limiting the exclusives, we have no way at all of knowing if that is the case, because they don't release production numbers for those other figures.

Based on the interview and market materials that was discussed earlier, I think it's clear they're deliberately producing what they consider to be a "limited" run. If you disagree with this, I can try and find the quotes that back up my belief.

But to say that the demand for a 3rd string Batman villain--packaged with a useless Batman variant that jacks up its price, no less--is half as popular as an amazing version of Star Wars' flagship character (released to the entire world no less) is a bit off target IMO.

I don't know what the scalping/pricing situation was with that release.

I know these are 2 different companies that produce different products, but Sideshow's production numbers are the best comparison available.

Exactly - I think they're apples and oranges. Sideshow may be the "best comparison available," but I don't think it's really close enough to be relevant.

Saying that "4000 figures, for the entire world, is a very small number" based on nothing but intuition isn't a very convincing argument to me.

HT isn't catering to a few niche hobbyists - there's enough of a market for these things to be found in retailers, both physical and online, all over the place.

I think it takes a lot more than 4000 figures produced, in total, for something to be sold by on-line and physical retailers all over the country (America), as well as other countries. I remember the DX was sold by Hastings (on-line and in physical stores). I'm sure other physical stores (be it larger chains or comic stores) carried some. I know stores like BBTS, Redfordfilms, and Toys2 had them.

I also remember that if you pre-ordered, you got them - there were no shortages. Hell, they were available for at least a few months after their international release.

And we're talking a much more popular character than the Scarecrow or a Batman variant, so demand would also be higher.

 

[Devil_666]

No I hear you haytil, but what I'm saying with those Asia-Only releases is, HT would never (and to my knowledge HAS never) released a figure that was specifically for America. Like 20th Century Boys Friend or Wong Ka Kui (popular in Asia but not in the states). It's always stuff that they can sell in Asia and internationally or JUST Asia.

As far as the Anicom Scar Predator, that figure was similar to Scarecrow and Demon Bats: limited production run and only distributed in Asia.

 

[karamazov80]

HT isn't catering to a few niche hobbyists - there's enough of a market for these things to be found in retailers, both physical and online, all over the place.

I think it takes a lot more than 4000 figures produced, in total, for something to be sold by on-line and physical retailers all over the country (America), as well as other countries. I remember the DX was sold by Hastings (on-line and in physical stores). I'm sure other physical stores (be it larger chains or comic stores) carried some. I know stores like BBTS, Redfordfilms, and Toys2 had them.

Neither is Sideshow exactly catering to a few niche hobbyists with Star Wars, but the production sizes of Farm Boy Luke and Smuggler Han Solo--2 of the most popular characters in the franchise in their most iconic looks--were released in similar production numbers as these exclusives. And this is worldwide, online and in comic shops.

You have to place the 4,000 number is some context, so that's what I'm doing. Dark Knight is a popular license, no doubt. Hot Toys figures are popular. But Dark Knight ain't Star Wars, and Sideshow puts out the best 1/6 scale Star Wars figures in the market currently, at prices that beat Hot Toys. Sideshow Star Wars figures are also sold at every store you mention, and then some, and I'm sure have a huge base of support in Asia.

As for HT saying they were deliberately releasing these in small quantities, even if this is true (though I recall the opposite--their saying that they wanted to release more of these than the SDCC figures to help appease demand), relative to what? Maybe the first Two-Face had 5,000 pieces released, and 4,000 is less than that. We don't know.

 

[haytil]

Neither is Sideshow exactly catering to a few niche hobbyists with Star Wars, but the production sizes of Farm Boy Luke and Smuggler Han Solo--2 of the most popular characters in the franchise in their most iconic looks--were released in similar production numbers as these exclusives. And this is worldwide, online and in comic shops.

You have to place the 4,000 number is some context, so that's what I'm doing. Dark Knight is a popular license, no doubt. Hot Toys figures are popular. But Dark Knight ain't Star Wars, and Sideshow puts out the best 1/6 scale Star Wars figures in the market currently, at prices that beat Hot Toys. Sideshow Star Wars figures are also sold at every store you mention, and then some, and I'm sure have a huge base of support in Asia.

Were they easily available to those who wanted them? And what were the market prices in the months following release, as compared to both the MSRP and the typical MSRP of a non-exclusive figure in the same line of figures (assuming they weren't the same?)

As for HT saying they were deliberately releasing these in small quantities, even if this is true (though I recall the opposite--their saying that they wanted to release more of these than the SDCC figures to help appease demand), relative to what?

Relative to a normal release (i.e., non-exclusive). They said they had a larger production run when compared to previous exclusives, yes, but not compared to normal runs (which is what I am objecting to).

 

[karamazov80]

Were they easily available to those who wanted them? And what were the market prices in the months following release, as compared to both the MSRP and the typical MSRP of a non-exclusive figure in the same line of figures (assuming they weren't the same?)



Relative to a normal release (i.e., non-exclusive). They said they had a larger production run when compared to previous exclusives, yes, but not compared to normal runs (which is what I am objecting to).

You can still get both those Star Wars figures for around retail price, I believe. They were available to whomever wanted them, but supply is supply and demand is demand, exclusive or no.

As for Scarecrow/Demon Bats being rarer than normal releases, that may be the case, but like I said before, we don't know how much rarer they are, or what normal releases they are referring to. I sincerely doubt that 4,000 Spirit figures were produced, for instance, but would not be surprised if 8,000+ Jokers or Berserker Predators were produced. But then, you are gonna get a lot more people to buy Joker than Scarecrow or Demon Batman.

Ultimately, we are both speculating. But based on the SDCC Ex. production numbers (which were much lower than this, but whose figures are now fairly reasonably priced on eBay) and Sideshow production numbers--numbers that we were given--the 4,000 figure seems high enough to me. The Asia-only release does present a bit of a problem, but unless there is a huge market in Asia to gobble all those figures up (which I doubt), then the worldwide market is gonna get its taste of these in a price that makes some reasonable sense. And that's what I expect to see.

 

[Lejuan]

Ultimately, we are both speculating. But based on the SDCC Ex. production numbers (which were much lower than this, but whose figures are now fairly reasonably priced on eBay) and Sideshow production numbers--numbers that we were given--the 4,000 figure seems high enough to me. The Asia-only release does present a bit of a problem, but unless there is a huge market in Asia to gobble all those figures up (which I doubt), then the worldwide market is gonna get its taste of these in a price that makes some reasonable sense. And that's what I expect to see.

I'm not well-informed on this issue, just going on my gut, but I agree. Folks who want these figures will have their patience rewarded by much lower prices than what we're currently seeing from the shysters.

 

[Padrinno]

my set just has been shipped...

 

[killrhertz]

I'm not well-informed on this issue, just going on my gut, but I agree. Folks who want these figures will have their patience rewarded by much lower prices than what we're currently seeing from the shysters.

Lets hope that this is true. I for one am getting sick and tired of ebay theives jacking prices up just when they get released and setting the benchmark for other greedy pricks. I know that there is supply and demand but come on $1800 for a tumbler, $900 for Robocop 3 flight pack, $3,300 for an Ancient Asia Pred! These are the most expensive cases but when will it end?

 

[haytil]

Lets hope that this is true. I for one am getting sick and tired of ebay theives jacking prices up just when they get released and setting the benchmark for other greedy pricks. I know that there is supply and demand but come on $1800 for a tumbler, $900 for Robocop 3 flight pack, $3,300 for an Ancient Asia Pred! These are the most expensive cases but when will it end?

I don't have so much of a problem with high market prices, if the value if an item has gone up over time. If customers had a fair chance to get it at the release price, then it's only fair that those who invest in the pieces turn a profit if they hold on to things for a while. Some items rise in price, some fall - it's all a gamble.

So the Tumbler, for instance, was available around MSRP to anyone who wanted it at the time of release. Scarcity has driven the price up, as time has passed, and that's fair.

What isn't cool is when the price immediately skyrockets, before loyal, attentive customers even have a chance to get in on the ground floor, as is the case with this set.

 

[Maglor]

Too many words in this thread.

 

[Chigger58]

I'm not well-informed on this issue, just going on my gut, but I agree. Folks who want these figures will have their patience rewarded by much lower prices than what we're currently seeing from the shysters.

my set just has been shipped...

Classic back to back posts!

Anyways, Padrinno congrats man! Glad you got a set and are happy. Would love to see some pics when you get them in hand!

I don't have so much of a problem with high market prices, if the value if an item has gone up over time. If customers had a fair chance to get it at the release price, then it's only fair that those who invest in the pieces turn a profit if they hold on to things for a while. Some items rise in price, some fall - it's all a gamble.

So the Tumbler, for instance, was available around MSRP to anyone who wanted it at the time of release. Scarcity has driven the price up, as time has passed, and that's fair.
What isn't cool is when the price immediately skyrockets, before loyal, attentive customers even have a chance to get in on the ground floor, as is the case with this set.

For me, in no real relation to what you're discussing, I'm actually a little glad that I missed out on the Tumbler. I would have bought it for MSRP but I wasn't collecting 1/6 when it came out. With prices where they are at currently it keeps me from buying one now as well. Which is great because with the announcement of the Burton Batman and Joker coming one can hope we'd get the BEST Batmobile ever out of that line. If that's the case, your da** right I'd be selling the Tumbler for that one. Glad I won't have to ship that mother anywhere too!

Too many words in this thread.

Agreed...what is there 3 pics of these figures in this thread?

 

[vodoun]

Agreed...what is there 3 pics of these figures in this thread?

Yeah because everyone has it!