1/6 Hot Toys - BvS: Dawn of Justice - Batman

[Lee in MI]

Good post.
For me I think the problem MoS and BvS have had, that the MCU doesn't is simple... familiarity!
Everyone knows Batman and Superman, and everyone has an opinion on who they are and how they should be portrayed.
The Avengers characters however were relatively unknown – Hulk is the only character people had reference too... no surprise he's the character that's been harded for Marvel to get his own movies right!
Going forward this will be a problem for Marvel - Iron Man especially, RDJ IS the character and it will be hard for them to relaunch him when the time comes

I can see your point...they weren't known movie properties like Batman and Superman. But I don't think that's the real issue. Batman has been successfully introduced and relaunched multiple times. It has been successful (Keaton, Bale and now Affleck) because of compelling stories...or parts thereof in Affleck's case. WB/DC have a story problem. Disney/Marvel have had duds too but overall their movies have been entertaining. WB/DC simply tend to make dumb (Green Lantern) or boring at times (MoS & BvS) movies. I really liked TDKRs but parts of it were uninteresting and boring. Other parts had you scratching your head about motive and character development. I recommend everyone who is interested in the sausage making of movies watch this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_"Superman_Lives":_What_Happened?

This seems to be WB/DCs ongoing problem. Too many cooks in the kitchen with different visions of what these movies should be which lead to disjointed and in cohesive story lines.

What Disney/Marvel has going for it is Kevin Fiege (sp?). He leads the big picture and keeps the whole thing on track. That's why they jettisoned Perlmutter (sp?) from the movie mix. These all encompassing movies with unifying story threads need an editor like Fiege. I thought thats what they brought Geoff Johns on board to be but that's clearly not the case. So they will continue to sputter along imo releasing less than stellar movies that will always take a back seat to the MCU.

And as you can see, I've always been a DC guy but good is good and mediocre is mediocre.

 

[sj2106]

So people are already assuming WW and JL are bad four months before the former is released and nearly a year away from the latter? There have been plenty of good vibes, especially around WW, but negative rumours automatically get more credibility it seems.

Geoff John's didn't wasn't even on board until after WW finished filming was he?

I don't think they are taking a back seat to Marvel. I was actually surprised how well SS performed. After the critical backlash against BvS and horrible early reviews for SS I expected it to tank at the box office. It actually held it up better than BvS in terms of second week drop off. If WB had released the real version of BvS in theatres, instead of that awfully edited version with key plot points inexplicably left out, I'm confident it would have gone past the $1b mark.

If JL gets even average early reviews, low to mid 60's on RT, it would probably surpass any Marvel movie at the box office so far. Superman seems to be the biggest problem at this stage. Batfleck and WW were very well received generally. Hopefully the more positive and confident Supes they are hinting at upon his return will go down better with critics but I don't want DC to ever pander to critics and just copy Marvel's formula.

 

[Starscream Soundwave]

...but good is good and mediocre is mediocre.

I think people forget that sometimes.

 

[sj2106]

I think people forget that sometimes.

Good and mediocre are subjective terms though. People forget that to.

 

[Lee in MI]

So people are already assuming WW and JL are bad four months before the former is released and nearly a year away from the latter? There have been plenty of good vibes, especially around WW, but negative rumours automatically get more credibility it seems.

Geoff John's didn't wasn't even on board until after WW finished filming was he?

I don't think they are taking a back seat to Marvel. I was actually surprised how well SS performed. After the critical backlash against BvS and horrible early reviews for SS I expected it to tank at the box office. It actually held it up better than BvS in terms of second week drop off. If WB had released the real version of BvS in theatres, instead of that awfully edited version with key plot points inexplicably left out, I'm confident it would have gone past the $1b mark.

If JL gets even average early reviews, low to mid 60's on RT, it would probably surpass any Marvel movie at the box office so far. Superman seems to be the biggest problem at this stage. Batfleck and WW were very well received generally. Hopefully the more positive and confident Supes they are hinting at upon his return will go down better with critics but I don't want DC to ever pander to critics and just copy Marvel's formula.

No one's saying those movies will be bad. We rightfully don't know. We are all offering up speculation and commentary based on anecdotal evidence we have seen or are seeing. I think WW looks like it will be great...but so did BvS.

GJ was brought on late...that's the point. He's there to guide the ship but the captain's ship left port before he arrived. Gonna be hard to command from shore

If you want to use box office results as a gauge (which I was not) all the movies are successful...even the mediocre ones like The Dark World, Iron Man 2 & 3 and The First Avenger to a lesser degree. Hell, even the bad ones would be considered successful using that measure: Green Lantern (widely panned by all) $200 million budget - World Wide Gross $220 million.

BvS was already too long in it's edited version. The UE version would have been a chore to watch in theaters. It wasn't that they needed to make it longer to explain the plot, it's that the plot was over complicated in some aspects and juvenile at best in others (Why'd you say that name?!?!? - Now I'm considering not killing you cause you got a mutha) It really needed a mild re-write or an exceptional edit.

I say they take a back seat to MCU and will continue if they keep putting out less than stellar movies. I think most would agree that the modern MCU has more hits than the modern DCU. I mean Iron Man, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Ant Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, Avengers/Avengers AoU (admittedly to a lesser degree) versus Bale Batman Begins, The Dark Knight and maybe Man of Steel and BvS.

I don't advocate that they should copy the MCU/Fiege formula...but it's pretty clear they don't even have one. That's why I don't see them competing with Disney/Marvel. For instance, why would the BvS movie even be a BvS movie They should have released another MoS movie to be...you know...the sequel to MoS. Instead, like Honest Trailers stated, we got a Batman movie disguised as a MoS movie. These decisions they are making to churn out the movies are in-congruent to one another and generally don't make sense. That's why they aren't as well received and going forward is questionable. I mean, we got a Flash movie coming that was supposed to start filming last month but still has no director. We got a Shazam movie coming...I mean a Black Adam movie (talk about pandering) because the guy who agreed to be Black Adam happens to be a mego star...hey, where's the Deadshot movie???? Oh yeah, we're getting a Robie movie instead, you know...cause she's hot and also happens to be a mega star.

 

[sj2106]

No one's saying those movies will be bad. We rightfully don't know. We are all offering up speculation and commentary based on anecdotal evidence we have seen or are seeing. I think WW looks like it will be great...but so did BvS.

GJ was brought on late...that's the point. He's there to guide the ship but the captain's ship left port before he arrived. Gonna be hard to command from shore

If you want to use box office results as a gauge (which I was not) all the movies are successful...even the mediocre ones like The Dark World, Iron Man 2 & 3 and The First Avenger to a lesser degree. Hell, even the bad ones would be considered successful using that measure: Green Lantern (widely panned by all) $200 million budget - World Wide Gross $220 million.

BvS was already too long in it's edited version. The UE version would have been a chore to watch in theaters. It wasn't that they needed to make it longer to explain the plot, it's that the plot was over complicated in some aspects and juvenile at best in others (Why'd you say that name?!?!? - Now I'm considering not killing you cause you got a mutha) It really needed a mild re-write or an exceptional edit.

I say they take a back seat to MCU and will continue if they keep putting out less than stellar movies. I think most would agree that the modern MCU has more hits than the modern DCU. I mean Iron Man, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Ant Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, Avengers/Avengers AoU (admittedly to a lesser degree) versus Bale Batman Begins, The Dark Knight and maybe Man of Steel and BvS.

I don't advocate that they should copy the MCU/Fiege formula...but it's pretty clear they don't even have one. That's why I don't see them competing with Disney/Marvel. For instance, why would the BvS movie even be a BvS movie They should have released another MoS movie to be...you know...the sequel to MoS. Instead, like Honest Trailers stated, we got a Batman movie disguised as a MoS movie. These decisions they are making to churn out the movies are in-congruent to one another and generally don't make sense. That's why they aren't as well received and going forward is questionable. I mean, we got a Flash movie coming that was supposed to start filming last month but still has no director. We got a Shazam movie coming...I mean a Black Adam movie (talk about pandering) because the guy who agreed to be Black Adam happens to be a mego star...hey, where's the Deadshot movie???? Oh yeah, we're getting a Robie movie instead, you know...cause she's hot and also happens to be a mega star.

Wasn't Rises as long as the ultimate edition of BvS? I don't think most fans would have objected to the length of the movie at all, certainly no chore for me. The long running time was by trying to condense two movies into one IMO. Two shorter movies released a few months apart would have been better, BvS then Dawn of Justice to give the Doomsday and death of Superman arc more time to breathe. For a long movie the ending still felt rushed.

Studios only get about half of the box office I thought, so at $220m gross Green Latern would have lost them a fortune! I wasn't saying box office was the only measure of success but nor is critic scores. Fan scores are way higher especially for the extended cut. Not suggesting it was a classic worthy of 95% but 27% is seriously out of touch with reality.

The Martha thing is overplayed. He had no idea Superman even had an earth mother, let alone her name. Supes mumbling Martha would naturally cause him to double take. He got more angry at that point maybe thinking he was mocking his mom's death or something. Lois conveniently showing up and explaining things was what stopped him killing. The lazy part for me was how 10 minutes later he was describing himself as "a friend of your sons". A gradual thawing of tensions would have been more realistic.

Why isn't the 78 Superman held to the same standards? Superman becoming capable of time travel by simply making the earth spin backwards isn't worse than 'Martha'? That's as lazy as it gets. Not only would it not work, the effects of inertia would have just killed everyone on the planet. If Snyder did something as dumb as that he'd be lampooned for the rest of his life.

The Flash movie does seem to be having problems but didn't Ant Man have to chance directors before it got off the ground? As for Deadshot and Harley well I'd much rather see a movie focused on Harley. I'll remain cautiously optimistic for WW and JL until I've at least seem the movies.

 

[SilverStar17]

I personally think BvS was more of a Superman film and a sequel to MoS than it was a Batman film. It was Superman's idealism that carried the film which culminated in his selfless sacrifice, the redeeming of Batman and the inspiration for WW to fight again.

Batman had already gone off the deep end, that was established. The story was more Superman beginning to struggle with the very same issues that led Batman to become the way he currently was.

 

[sj2106]

I personally think BvS was more of a Superman film and a sequel to MoS than it was a Batman film. It was Superman's idealism that carried the film which culminated in his selfless sacrifice, the redeeming of Batman and the inspiration for WW to fight again.

Batman had already gone off the deep end, that was established. The story was more Superman beginning to struggle with the very same issues that led Batman to become the way he currently was.

That's true. Although Batman probably had more screen time, the plot was more about his and the world's reaction to Superman than anything else.

 

[SilverStar17]

That's true. Although Batman probably had more screen time, the plot was more about his and the world's reaction to Superman than anything else.

Batman definitely had more screen time. However, looking beneath the surface, I feel it was actually more of a Superman film for the reasons I mentioned. What Jonathan explained to Clark in MoS was coming to fruition and he was struggling with the repercussions.

 

[Starscream Soundwave]

Good and mediocre are subjective terms though. People forget that to.

Some films are of higher quality than others. It's not entirely subjective.

Been a while since I saw BvS but from what I remember it seemed far more focused on Batman.

 

[Lee in MI]

Let's take these one at a time.

Wasn't Rises as long as the ultimate edition of BvS? I don't think most fans would have objected to the length of the movie at all, certainly no chore for me. The long running time was by trying to condense two movies into one IMO. Two shorter movies released a few months apart would have been better, BvS then Dawn of Justice to give the Doomsday and death of Superman arc more time to breathe. For a long movie the ending still felt rushed.

Rises is a chore to watch...at least for me it is. Two movies released separately, BvS then Dawn of Justice...now you're onto something.

Studios only get about half of the box office I thought, so at $220m gross Green Latern would have lost them a fortune! I wasn't saying box office was the only measure of success but nor is critic scores. Fan scores are way higher especially for the extended cut. Not suggesting it was a classic worthy of 95% but 27% is seriously out of touch with reality.

I'm not sure what they get. I was comparing published numbers...I have no idea how the baby is split. 27% is a little harsh. I think the true diehards are the real measure of the movie. We're the only ones who will care many years from now and judge it a classic or a dud. Unfortunately, I think this one will be closer to the latter.

The Martha thing is overplayed. He had no idea Superman even had an earth mother, let alone her name. Supes mumbling Martha would naturally cause him to double take. He got more angry at that point maybe thinking he was mocking his mom's death or something. Lois conveniently showing up and explaining things was what stopped him killing. The lazy part for me was how 10 minutes later he was describing himself as "a friend of your sons". A gradual thawing of tensions would have been more realistic.

You see though, there's the rub. This is a seasoned detective...and they spent a reasonable amount of time showing how resourceful and detective-like Batman/Bruce Wayne actually was not to mention this is supposed to be later in his career. So he is at the top of his game. So he obsesses about this "alien" who is a danger to all of society. Goes so far as to decide to actually "kill" him (very un-Batman like btw) and he knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about him? Not his name, where he resides, who is girlfriend is or who is his mother??? Luthor knew : How did Batman NOT know

Why isn't the 78 Superman held to the same standards? Superman becoming capable of time travel by simply making the earth spin backwards isn't worse than 'Martha'? That's as lazy as it gets. Not only would it not work, the effects of inertia would have just killed everyone on the planet. If Snyder did something as dumb as that he'd be lampooned for the rest of his life.

Well, it's not 1978. I think by today's standards, that scene is especially lampooned. But that movie had something else going for it. It was one of the first time's in movie history that they made a guy in tights with his underwear on backwards seem believable...the first time the material was treated seriously. Even as a kid, and I was 5 when it came out, I was like, "Hey! That ain't Superman's power!" But the anguish he demonstrates right before that is still moving today. I mean he lost Lois and that mofo was P.Oed! And he performed the scene flawlessly.

The Flash movie does seem to be having problems but didn't Ant Man have to chance directors before it got off the ground? As for Deadshot and Harley well I'd much rather see a movie focused on Harley. I'll remain cautiously optimistic for WW and JL until I've at least seem the movies.

Yeah, Ant-Man had the same issues...but AM had Feige in it's corner too. Feige is like Belichick. Doesn't matter who's at the helm of the movie. The program is what matters. Make the movie support the overall program. Maybe GJ will be able to guide it back on track but only time will tell.

 

[Lee in MI]

Some films are of higher quality than others. It's not entirely subjective.

Been a while since I saw BvS but from what I remember it seemed far more focused on Batman.

Agreed. Seemed more of a Batman film...hell, even now, the only scenes that are interesting to watch are the Batman scenes. Kinda like Star Wars the Phantom Menace. Only watch it for the Darth Maul scenes...the rest isn't really worth much re-watching.

To me, Superman's "sacrifice" was so unimportant. Sure the movie played it like it was this big loss, but there wasn't much investment in the character leading up to it. Zod's murder was more...meaningful. At least his motive was clear, Krypton over all others. He was right in his mind. We saw enough of the character to know what he wanted and still understand that short of death, nothing was going to stop him. His death literally meant the end of a new Krypton and that Superman would be the one and only Kyrptonian left.

In BvS, I found myself not really caring that much that Superman died. It really had no real impact because the movie didn't really seem invested in the character, so neither was I. Now had Doomsday fried Batman's arse, that would have been like "DAYUUUMMMM!!!!!" That would have made an impact for sure.

 

[Starscream Soundwave]

Agreed. Seemed more of a Batman film...hell, even now, the only scenes that are interesting to watch are the Batman scenes. Kinda like Star Wars the Phantom Menace. Only watch it for the Darth Maul scenes...the rest isn't really worth much re-watching.

To me, Superman's "sacrifice" was so unimportant. Sure the movie played it like it was this big loss, but there wasn't much investment in the character leading up to it. Zod's murder was more...meaningful. At least his motive was clear, Krypton over all others. He was right in his mind. We saw enough of the character to know what he wanted and still understand that short of death, nothing was going to stop him. His death literally meant the end of a new Krypton and that Superman would be the one and only Kyrptonian left.

In BvS, I found myself not really caring that much that Superman died. It really had no real impact because the movie didn't really seem invested in the character, so neither was I. Now had Doomsday fried Batman's arse, that would have been like "DAYUUUMMMM!!!!!" That would have made an impact for sure.

Haha, very true.

Yeah I agree completely. It was an absolutely crazy decision to off him at that point. A lot of people complained about the murder of Zod, but the way it was done, it worked.

Well, it would have been ballsy, that's for sure

 

[SilverStar17]

Regarding Superman's death in the DCEU, I personally have no issues with how it was done. They sort of went for the you don't know what you had until it's gone route. Given the backlash he was receiving, the fact that he still had the innate goodness and the compassion for others to sacrifice himself amid all the criticism he was receiving because he knew that there were still people out there who did indeed look up to him and saw him as the light in their darkness, I found to be moving.

However, I can understand the point of how waiting until he was absolutely revered by everyone (the way he apparently is now in the DCEU after his death) and then killing him off, would have been very moving also.

Either way would have personally been fine with me and therefore, how it was executed I personally see no issue with. I see the logic in both.

 

[sj2106]

Let's take these one at a time.



Rises is a chore to watch...at least for me it is. Two movies released separately, BvS then Dawn of Justice...now you're onto something.



I'm not sure what they get. I was comparing published numbers...I have no idea how the baby is split. 27% is a little harsh. I think the true diehards are the real measure of the movie. We're the only ones who will care many years from now and judge it a classic or a dud. Unfortunately, I think this one will be closer to the latter.



You see though, there's the rub. This is a seasoned detective...and they spent a reasonable amount of time showing how resourceful and detective-like Batman/Bruce Wayne actually was not to mention this is supposed to be later in his career. So he is at the top of his game. So he obsesses about this "alien" who is a danger to all of society. Goes so far as to decide to actually "kill" him (very un-Batman like btw) and he knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about him? Not his name, where he resides, who is girlfriend is or who is his mother??? Luthor knew : How did Batman NOT know



Well, it's not 1978. I think by today's standards, that scene is especially lampooned. But that movie had something else going for it. It was one of the first time's in movie history that they made a guy in tights with his underwear on backwards seem believable...the first time the material was treated seriously. Even as a kid, and I was 5 when it came out, I was like, "Hey! That ain't Superman's power!" But the anguish he demonstrates right before that is still moving today. I mean he lost Lois and that mofo was P.Oed! And he performed the scene flawlessly.



Yeah, Ant-Man had the same issues...but AM had Feige in it's corner too. Feige is like Belichick. Doesn't matter who's at the helm of the movie. The program is what matters. Make the movie support the overall program. Maybe GJ will be able to guide it back on track but only time will tell.

I've always thought a couple of two hour movies would have worked much better instead of cramming the the JL, WW stuff and the death of Superman into an already heavy plot.

Batmans ignorance as to Supes identity was a weak plot point, no denying that. As I've said before I'd never claim the movie was flawless but I do still love watching it. For me the good outweighs the bad.

The more I think about it I do believe they had to kill Superman early to get around the issue of the public not accepting him. A movie dedicated to that Doomsday plot after he'd sorted his differences with Batman would have made it more meaningful. I do it agree it felt rushed.

 

[jacerc130]

sj2106..........Tell Me.........Do you bleed??? YOU WILL.............

just kidding. I love quoting lines from movies. I agree with you, BvS has its flaws there is no getting around that. Could it have been handled better...Ofcourse, but hindsight is always 20/20 and I too still love watching it for the different view perspectives of MOS scenes, the change we see in Batman dealing with criminals and the fight scene between batman and superman!!!

 

[sj2106]

On the figure itself, I had a quick look at a second one I'm sending onto someone else and the suit was noticeably just a little lighter(not much and still not as grey as the suit Affleck wore). Did HT realise it was too dark and correct somewhat in later batches? The scratches on the bat symbol looked more well defined to. Those that have taken steps to make the suit lighter, what did you use? I'm tempted to try it on mine but always worried I'll mess it up.

 

[sj2106]

sj2106..........Tell Me.........Do you bleed??? YOU WILL.............

just kidding. I love quoting lines from movies. I agree with you, BvS has its flaws there is no getting around that. Could it have been handled better...Ofcourse, but hindsight is always 20/20 and I too still love watching it for the different view perspectives of MOS scenes, the change we see in Batman dealing with criminals and the fight scene between batman and superman!!!

Sadly I do as someone who's been known to faint at the sight of blood it's not a good thing! I'm okay with movie blood, just not the real thing.

 

[Cicada17]

What a delightful and meaningful conversation you guys are having. I'm enjoying the read.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sj2106]

What a delightful and meaningful conversation you guys are having. I'm enjoying the read.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is that sarcasm I detect.