Originally Posted by ALV427
Accuracy or inaccuracy. I don't believe that the photos and spiels adamantly claiming that the details of the Hot Toys figure are inaccurate in some major way are correct. I think that many of the photos in this thread are of replica suits, pre-production trial suits, test photos and a mix of originals and modified and unfinished movie originals, who knows with the low resolution and no mention of where they are sourced from or what context they were taken and for what purpose etc. There simply isn't enough verifiable official photos and reference material available to the public to back up any claims that the Hot Toys figure is accurate or inaccurate beyond any doubt. That said, I think HTs should have painted the tongue white and the rear incisors need a slightly sharper profile and a more chromed appearance, but they are relatively easy and minor fixes - we are talking minor paint details and fractions of millimetres here and stuff that's not really apparent from any distance but only really when magnified.
Ridley constantly and very deliberately had the details of the suits modified during filming so that the appearance of the ALIEN was constantly changing so the audience couldn't get a fix on the shape and finer details - he wanted the viewers minds to fill in the gaps with what they imagined they saw, pattern recognition, everyone sees something different, you know... So I'm saying that there is no one version of the suit for any model to be based on that can replicate exactly what is seen on screen, simply because what is seen in the movie is a composite of all the alterations, variations and repairs made to the suits and biting FX head stand throughout the filming process. Moulds were made and remade, no two domes were the same, like the hands and tendons, details around the mouth, teeth, paint etc, etc, etc. The lighting, lenses and angles chosen for the shots played a huge roll in the Alien's overall appearance, that never gets given much consideration. I think it all comes down to what you think some of the proportions and finer details should look like - just as Ridley and Giger intended from the start.
The finer details of any figure or statue are pretty much up to the artist to interpret as he/she sees fit, the feeling they want to convey, their vision, and we see that in almost every photo posted here. But you and Sabres (and others) seem to be inferring that there is a single version of the ALIEN that all artists should adhere to and base their sculpts on, I don't think that's a fact, it really fly's in the face of the facts. Sabres, when you say that "there are those of us who know what it looks like in the light and up close. We know the details. And for us, this didn't measure up." just sounds so wrong to me. I think you guys have formed an image of the perfect ALIEN that appeals to you, I think we all have. If Joseph sat you guys down and started sculpting you an ALIEN, it probably wouldn't be too long before you guys started fighting with each other about your visions of what it should be, you wouldn't be able to agree, you both wouldn't walk away 100% satisfied at the end. My point isn't that that the Hot Toys ALIEN figure is accurate or inaccurate, but to say with absolute conviction that it's not accurate because of a few tiny details is mystifying to me. I think the claims about the lack of accuracy aren't a fact, it's an opinion that's shaped and based on the image you have created in your mind. I think it's all absolute proof of the brilliance of Giger and Scott and one of the reasons that ALIEN has continually thrilled new audiences and cemented it's place as a classic and a benchmark for other film makers, artists, lighting, FX etc, etc, etc. You will never be able to hold up any single figure and say that it is exactly what was seen on screen. Maybe you could if they release an official book that goes through all the mods the suits went through, you might be able to get a reasonably accurate set of figure and a stand for the biting FX head to satisfy the hardest of hardcore fans, but I doubt that there would be enough of a market to justify producing something like that, or if it something that's even really feasible after all these years.
Thanks for the answer ALV!
You make interesting points, but I think you're still ignoring a couple of big salient facts:
1. There is a statue sculpted by Giger himself on top of a casting of Bolaji Badejo's body. That statue was in turn used to make castings for the suit. The same statue exists today and is open to the public in Giger's museum in Switzerland.
Thus, if you're sculpting the alien, you can refer to it or photographs of it to get your details and proportions right. Surely that would be the closest anybody could get to the source material, regardless of paint apps, camera angles, lenses and lighting.
2. The iconic face and head of the alien, the one we saw in enormous close-ups on screen was the Rambaldi hero head. There was one of those made and you can see it in the movie and in production videos and stills. It's pretty easy to tell which one it is, because it's always shown with the mechanisms at work. So, again, it's not that difficult to refer to that one prop to get the closest possible to the iconic look, regardless of stunt heads or changes in props.
Furthermore, there were no changes made to the appearance of the alien on purpose during filming. I don't know where you have that info from, but I have not read or heard about it anywhere.
Scott does say that he wanted the audience to be guessing as to the look of the creature, and filmed it in different poses and extreme close-ups, with flashing lights and semi-darkness to make it difficult to get a grip on its actual look (and to avoid the "man-in-a-suit" look). But he never made changes to the suit or look on purpose. There's only the matter of a smaller suit (although with the exact same appearance) made for a stunt-man and the tail being attached on the groin instead of the back to make it look longer in certain scenes (although you never actually see that). But both instances were dictated because of production needs and not for the sake of making the creature's look change.
As to the fact that each has an image of the perfect alien would be, yes, of course; but that is true of any collectible. Take SST's Jedi Luke for instance: some like the expression, some don't, but we can all agree that the likeness is there.
Take Medicom's and NECA's aliens: both look quite different from each other, but we (meaning us ____ retentive super-fans ) can all agree that the "likeness" is there. NECA's has larger (perhaps oversized) teeth and Medicom's has a more pronounced back-slope to the head and the teeth look more like they were half-hidden under the lips. That falls within the artist's take on the source material and what each artist finds more alien about the alien. It's their personal response to the alien-ness of the design and what impacts them most. Going back to Jedi Luke, what inspired the artist (or the creative director) most was the inner struggle and not the determination of Luke, thus the sculpt SST gave us.
But HT's figure goes beyond that. If you look at Giger's statue, you will notice that the lower legs have no "grill" patterns on the sides, only on the back. On the forearms it also only has those grill patterns on one side, not on both.
Look at the Tsang's sculpt. He just put that in because he thought it looked cooler I guess. That's not the same as making the figure a bit skinnier of slightly more muscular, or making the teeth slightly larger or giving the hands a dynamic pose. That is plain and simple making things up, things that simply are not on the original sculpt made by the artist (which s there for everyone to see). Which would be fine if HT hadn't marketed and advertised this as the "most accurate representation of Giger's alien ever".
Nobody gets pissed off at Takeya's aliens, because they are "Takeya" aliens. Unfortunately, HT has their aliens under the Movie Masterpieces banner, not the Tsang Masterpieces banner. So they should be accurate to the source material.
As to your last point, my only comment would be: if the figure were accurate, would it sell less? With the awesome detail, paint apps and base that HT has given their figure, with accuracy to boot, it would sell even more than it has.
And of course it is possible to make an accurate figure even taking into account the artist's personal touch. Just take a look at the Cinemaquette, Marmit, NECA and Medicom collectibles.
And thanks again for the great conversation! I just hope this is not boring people out of their minds...
But, as you can see, I love talking about alien!
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