Hot Toys - MMS DX 11 - TDK: The Joker 2.0 Collectible Figure specs and pics

[TheFiend]

It's astonishing how off yullis first attempt at joker was. I'm aware that proper reference pics weren't available to her when she sculpted it...but there were plenty of photos of ledger in and out of character. It's like you'd think she sculpted the first joker based on memory alone.

This whole proper reference pics, is this fact started by HT or fan speculation?

Sent from my LG-E739 using Tapatalk 2

 

[DiFabio]

Fan speculation.


They had enough reference. The Bank Robber Joker was in development at the same time as the V1. They were literally only mere months apart.

As soon as the Bank Robber version showed up, that's all they did was display the Bank Robber head on the V1, as if that was their plan all along.

 

[Hydeous]

Looking at that pic, makes me think that it'll make a sweet DX 3.0.

 

[deathbyexile]

This whole proper reference pics, is this fact started by HT or fan speculation?

i seem to recall seeing it in an interview with her. she said all she had to work with were some not very clear early promo pictures. don't know what they were, though. for all we know, they could have been as bad this:

 

[Hydeous]

That doesnt look like Ledger at all.

 

[DiFabio]

That wasn't even real.


This is what they based the V1 off of. This was their reference.

 

[Hydeous]

From those promo shots, i cant help but to think that the dx01 purple coat's material is more accurate shrunked down to 1/6 scale.The grain and scale on the Dx11 is too big, maybe more like a 1/4 or 1/2 scale at the very least, judging from the pics so far. Im getting my other set next Tuesday. Will pour my thoughts then.

 

[TheFiend]

Fan speculation.


They had enough reference. The Bank Robber Joker was in development at the same times as the V1. They were literally only mere months apart.

As soon as the Bank Robber version showed up, that's all they did was display the Bank Robber head on the V1, as if that was their plan all along.

That's what I thought.

I still think that looks good. The BR head with V1 stuff.

 

[deathbyexile]

yeah, they're hateful and deliberately created a crappy product.

and i don't know, i guess yulli is a liar?

https://www.afhub.com/an-interview-with-hot-toys-yulli/

"I have to pay more effort on the first Joker figure as references were so limited. The most difficult part is to make a character who has too much make-up.

The Bank Robber version of joker was created after I’ve watched the movie, it is much better than the normal version because I’ve input the characteristic of Joker, especially his mad performance."​

 

[TheFiend]

From those promo shots, i cant help but to think that the dx01 purple coat's material is more accurate shrunked down to 1/6 scale.The grain and scale on the Dx11 is too big, maybe more like a 1/4 or 1/2 scale at the very least, judging from the pics so far. Im getting my other set next Tuesday. Will pour my thoughts then.

They should have just used the Jack Joker material. That stuff is perfect.

yeah, they're hateful and deliberately created a crappy product.

and yulli is a liar.

No one said it was deliberate. Besides we all knew what JOker looked like long before the movie came out.

 

[deathbyexile]

see quote above.

she had the advantage of actually seeing the movie when she made br joker. makes all the difference in the world.

 

[DiFabio]

see quote above.

she had the advantage of actually seeing the movie when she made br joker. makes all the difference in the world.

So she cranked out that headsculpt in a few weeks (or less considering it came out much later in Asia)? Lets remember Bank Robber Joker was shown in August of 2008.


Yeah, I doubt that. I'd imagine it takes a little more than a few weeks to make a figure. We've discussed this before, a long time ago and the same debate happened. You can think what you want, but I know how these things go into development. I'm sure V1 and Bank Robber Joker were in the works simultaneously. The plan I'm sure was to get people to buy both (no problem there) and to swap out the V1 head with regular BR head. Which everyone had done.

More telling of this is the first ever pic of the prototype Bank Robber head that was in a catalog,

That's the V1 as a stand in.



And they didn't have enough reference? Yeah, that's crap. They had all those promo pics and stills from WB at their disposal for the V1.

That's not a conspiracy theory, it's what happened.

 

[bnagra32]

Okay thanks, new to this ssc buying, this is first figure I am getting in a long list of others now from them on preorder, so this not on flex pay don't get an email? We still get same date as others? And second how does this flex pay work anyhow?

Email was for those on flex pay.

 

[vodoun]

Fan speculation.


They had enough reference. The Bank Robber Joker was in development at the same time as the V1. They were literally only mere months apart.

As soon as the Bank Robber version showed up, that's all they did was display the Bank Robber head on the V1, as if that was their plan all along.

Remember the old days? when this forum appreciated that greatly. Remember? Before all the snobbery.

 

[haytil]

Fan speculation.


They had enough reference. The Bank Robber Joker was in development at the same time as the V1.

Is this HT stated fact or fan speculation?

They were literally only mere months apart.

That's a big difference. They could easily NOT have had references during V1 development and then, only a few months later, have references as they enter BR Joker development. Why is this so hard to believe?

As soon as the Bank Robber version showed up, that's all they did was display the Bank Robber head on the V1, as if that was their plan all along.

Of course that's all they did, but that doesn't mean it was "their plan all along" and that they deliberately put out a bad head to make you buy another figure for the good head.

All it does mean is that they're good salesmen and know to hype a superior product once they have one to offer.

This is what they based the V1 off of. This was their reference.

Look at how different these promo pic expressions are, from the movie that we know and from the Hot Toys sculpts that we now praise. Even the shape of his head and mouth seem weird. That third pic looks like a monkey face.

It's no wonder that the v1 also looks so different - it's based on these terrible promo pics (which I believe were taken so the guys at Mattel could have something to work with for their kid action figure line).

Lets remember Bank Robber Joker was shown in August of 2008.

Let's consider that V1 Joker came out before the movie, and so was easily in development six months prior to that - so it clearly could have had a six month (or more) lead on BR Joker in development. Not to mention that, six months before the movie, the number of quality source pics were QUITE limited (the first theatrical trailer only came out in December).

Nolan's known for his secrecy, and Hot Toys wasn't the big player at the time that it is now. Knowing how some of the marketing for that movie worked, I can tell you that it's very possible Hot Toys wasn't given enough good source pics at the time. (Also, recall that the 1/6 game wasn't nearly as detailed as it is now - it's very possible that WB simply did not realize the importance of getting better pics to Hot Toys, because nobody knew what they were capable of yet).

So she cranked out that headsculpt in a few weeks (or less considering it came out much later in Asia)? ...Yeah, I doubt that. I'd imagine it takes a little more than a few weeks to make a figure.

I think it's incredibly feasible that an artist, working as their full-time job on a headsculpt, could crank out a good one within a few weeks (if not a few days!), if it's their primary project. These are professionals, not divas selling suits and heads for $1000 a pop.

I think it's also feasible that Hot Toys put this one on the priority list, anticipating how huge "The Dark Knight" and Ledger's Joker would be. At the time, it certainly would have looked to be their most promising figure yet, profitability-wise!

I also think that they could crank out the other stuff (clothing, accessories) pretty damn quickly too. BR Joker doesn't have rubber suits or really intricate parts - it's mostly fabric, conventional clothing, easily-done grenade accessories, and a few typical guns (one of which they already had the mold for, for V1 Joker).

We're used to long development times, but this was done when HT was less busy (fewer releases) and it wasn't a "Batman" or "Iron Man" figure with a complicated suit, so it would've been easier to prototype produce.

I'm sure V1 and Bank Robber Joker were in the works simultaneously.

Do you have a source for this, or is it (contrary to what you stated otherwise) merely your fan speculation?

The plan I'm sure was to get people to buy both (no problem there) and to swap out the V1 head with regular BR head. Which everyone had done.

I think that was the plan after BR Joker went into development (hence, two heads), but you seem to be implying that V1 Joker was deliberately inaccurate so that they could make people by BR Joker later as well, which there is no evidence for.

More telling of this is the first ever pic of the prototype Bank Robber head that was in a catalog,

That's the V1 as a stand in.

How is that "telling" of anything? They didn't have the BR Joker head ready for the catalog, so they used pics of the head that they already DID have, the V1 Joker, as that had already been released. All you're doing is proving my point - that clearly there was significant development time in between V1 Joker and BR Joker, and that window of time could easily account for a discrepancy in availability of source materials.

And they didn't have enough reference? Yeah, that's crap. They had all those promo pics and stills from WB at their disposal for the V1.

Like I said, those promo pics and stills pretty much sucked.

 

[DiFabio]

Man, I didn't even read that.


Sometimes you're a real lofty *** hole haytil. I can't recall what it was before, but you did this to me one other time recently. Jumped in a ripped a post apart or something (EDIT:, oh it was about the little petty argument about Batman Returns and whether or not Catwoman was supernatural).



Let's give Hot Toys and their artists the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, I speculated all of it it's just conjecture on my part. Hot Toys definitely didn't have a better Joker in mind or in development or made when they created the V1. It was just an accident (even despite a google image search from July 2007 to June 2008 provides a plethora of Ledger Joker pics for reference, ranging from the promos above, plus those great interrogation, jail cell, pics from early 2008, right after the first trailer). Guess that just wasn't enough.


Lets give em the benefit of the doubt, the same company that, to this day, keeps pumping out revision after revision. DX after DX. They had nothing up their sleeves back in 2008. Bank Robber Joker was just a happy accident. They planned and made it in the weeks (even though people saw the Bank Heist early on, plus all the none Joker promotional stills) of August. V1 Joker was the best they could do at the time with what they had.

Which is also why they put out a DX Joker figure a year later (2009) with all the references in the world, that has a headsculpt that most people think is inferior to the Bank Robber Joker head.

 

[haytil]

Man, I didn't even read that.

Thanks. Good to see that you're willing to put the same effort into reading what I write that I am willing to put into reading what you write. Real respectful there.

Sometimes you're a real lofty *** hole haytil.

Hah! Don't read and respond to the logical arguments, just call names and make THAT your argument! Classy.

I can't recall what it was before, but you did this to me one other time recently. Jumped in a ripped a post apart or something

Your argument doesn't hold water, and I'm pointing that out. You can call it "ripping a post apart" or responding with intellectually honest debate. Your call.

DiFabio, you're one of the older posters and remember the early Hot Toys days. So when someone asks "Is this fact or fan speculation," people will listen to you and believe you when you say something is fact.

You need to be wary of that and not be dishonest in presenting "speculation" as "fact," especially when you're been point-blank asked to clarify whether it's one or the other. The fact is that there is no documentation proving your point-of-view, and plenty of circumstantial evidence to the contrary.

Let's give Hot Toys and their artists the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, I speculated all of it it's just conjecture on my part. Hot Toys definitely didn't have a better Joker in mind or in development or made when they created the V1.

There's a difference between thinking "We'll do our best now but know we'll do a better job later when we have more sources" and "We'll not do our best now, so that later we can make a better one and make people buy two!"

Computer manufacturers are constantly releasing better computers at lower prices. Are they screwing early adopters? There'll always be a "better" computer a year or two later. But that doesn't mean a computer manufacturer doesn't put all their effort into any given release, just because they know their next release will be even better.

It was just an accident (even despite a google image search from July 2007 to June 2008 provides a plethora of Ledger Joker pics for reference

There were VERY few Ledger pics before the trailer. There were a couple of leaks, but WB was very aggressive about taking them down and it took a real dedicated fan to find them. It wouldn't surprise me if Hot Toys neither knew about them nor could find them if they did.

ranging from the promos above, plus those great interrogation, jail cell, pics from early 2008, right after the first trailer). Guess that just wasn't enough.

I don't know when the sculpt went into development (remember, the figures came out in May that year, I believe). I also know that many of the pics from the trailer and so forth, while great for general consumption, may not have been so hot for detailing a sculpt from. I would think you need a lot of angles and closeups on the face.

Lets give em the benefit of the doubt, the same company that, to this day, keeps pumping out revision after revision. DX after DX.

What are you talking about? The only DX "re-releases" I've seen were staged 3 years apart.

V1 Joker was the best they could do at the time with what they had.

You've yet to provide any evidence to the contrary.

Which is also why they put out a DX Joker figure a year later (2009) with all the references in the world, that has a headsculpt that most people think is inferior to the Bank Robber Joker head.

Do YOU think it's inferior to the BR head? Significantly so?

I don't. I think it's different, but I proudly display both. (It also suffers from being the first PERS head, which was clearly a new experiment for them, so the eyes may suffer a bit).

And even if you're right - that the DX head is inferior - how is that at all related to the point at hand?





Oh wait, why did I bother to respond? Not like you're going to take the time to read it...

 

[skooternb]

 

[DiFabio]

There were VERY few Ledger pics before the trailer. There were a couple of leaks, but WB was very aggressive about taking them down and it took a real dedicated fan to find them. It wouldn't surprise me if Hot Toys neither knew about them nor could find them if they did.

When did the V1 pic come up? May.


So if you think that Hot Toys', sculptors (Yuli) could come up with a fantastic, brand spanking new Joker headsculpt in weeks after, they "had just seen the movie" then how come those same people didn't utilize these when they had them months in advance?

(Used for slicked back hair BR sculpt most likely, well before May)

Maybe that's not good enough reference? She had to have seen the movie to get the reference for the Bank Robber sculpt. I gotta stop this speculation.

By the way, I'm pretty sure the promotional reference in those posts above for the clothes/tailoring artist was for just that, the clothes, not the headsculpt. That first V1 Joker head doesn't look like ANYTHING really. It has no resemblance to any of those promotional pics or the pics/stills of the time except maybe the Wizard magazine pic of him, fists clenched, in the street.

And again it just isn't the headsculpt. It isn't the only thing that's "telling" about it. How about all those wonderful accessories the V1 comes with? He was loaded with accessories like, the cards, the money, oh and that knife.


The thing was practically bare bones. Where was the machine gun from that great December trailer?



Oh yeah, the Bank Robber got that just like it got the better head. . .

 

[DarkMagic]

Which is also why they put out a DX Joker figure a year later (2009) with all the references in the world, that has a headsculpt that most people think is inferior to the Bank Robber Joker head.

What is your point exactly? You seemed to be saying that HT releases inferior product first (V1), so that they make the extra profit from early-adopters who feel the need to "upgrade" when something better comes along (BR). But that whole argument falls apart when you say that they released an inferior headsculpt with DX01. Why would they purposely step backwards?

Also, isn't it entirely possible that while there was some overlap in the production, the V1 was already too far along in production to make much cost sense to destroy all of the completed inferior heads and replace them with BR heads? The release date of the movie in Asia is irrelevant, if Yulli says she saw the movie when she did, she did. How do you know how long it takes her to finish a sculpt...or even how long it takes HT to take one of her prototype sculpts to mass production? Maybe it's not the same for every figure. V1 could have taken a year to develop, and BR a few months...then with some overlap in production time, it's reasonable that they get released not that far apart. It's not like they wait until one figure is completely shipped before they start on the next one.