Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod

[karamazov80]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

To look at it another way, step back a second and consider--Krypton decided to engage in what you suggest is a contemporary form of "evolution"--using the skull thing to create all babies. What was the result? Their society stagnated, fell into civil war, and they destroyed their own planet. What about that whole situation provides the evidence that Ursa uses in support of her statement? If the skull thing was evolution, then the only history she knows of proves that "evolution" fails horribly!

The only reason she and her crew existed was because they were luckily living in the Phantom Zone when Krypton blew up. That had nothing to do with evolution at all.

 

[gdb]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

"The fact that you possess a sense of morality and we do not, gives us an evolutionary advantage, and if history has proven anything...
It is that evolution always wins." Faora-Ul

OT....but this just illustrates how badly written the script is (or at least this dialog)... or that a lame excuse is that Foara just learnt to speak English and misunderstood the term "evolution" to put it in to any context

I've always hated that line. It's a dog whistle: evolution-deniers hear in it a declaration against religion, and paints Zod's crew as atheists. While students of evolution know that morality has a genetic component.

How is it out of context? Humanity has morals, in order to progress, with science for example, morals are often ignored, the fact that they have no morality so they can seize domain over the planet is an evolutionary advantage, you could argue that the term exclusively applies to physiological traits, in which case, it's still about the survival of the fittest.

Evolutionists will tell you that morality has a genetic component. We have evolved to care for each other and it makes us stronger as a species. I always say, look at dogs: they started out 100% wolf and over the years we humans have helped them evolve into caring, loving, moral animals. And that's all through breeding and evolution.

Now with the codex, Zod's crew could have been genetically engineered to be amoral to make them more efficient soldiers -- which is why JorEl and Superman aren't amoral characters. Zod's crew are probably even less agreeable than psychopaths which are humans that are born without the physical part in their brain that creates empathy.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

To look at it another way, step back a second and consider--Krypton decided to engage in what you suggest is a contemporary form of "evolution"--using the skull thing to create all babies. What was the result? Their society stagnated, fell into civil war, and they destroyed their own planet. What about that whole situation provides the evidence that Ursa uses in support of her statement? If the skull thing was evolution, then the only history she knows of proves that "evolution" fails horribly!

The only reason she and her crew existed was because they were luckily living in the Phantom Zone when Krypton blew up. That had nothing to do with evolution at all.

Neither did the destruction of Krypton, the destruction of Krypton was due to the core's instability, many civilizations in fiction, largely more evolved than humans have perished in similar circumstances, it certainly wasn't due to evolution.

 

[ZaCHw117]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

can't wait to see this guy! Hopefully ani-com.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

Neither did the destruction of Krypton, the destruction of Krypton was due to the core's instability, many civilizations in fiction, largely more evolved than humans have perished in similar circumstances, it certainly wasn't due to evolution.

From wikipedia:

"The planet Krypton faces imminent destruction due to its unstable core, the result of years of depleting Krypton's natural resources"

So, self-serving Kryptonians thinking only of their own material well-being and not the well-being of their planet and future generations, were responsible (as I recall, this happened alongside over-reliance on the genetically stagnant skull and failure to further expand their civilization to other planets--more hallmarks of a failure to evolve). Is that not the definition of an immoral society? And fictional civilizations can do as they please, but if we're using some unspoken, abstract fiction to define what "evolution" means and how "morality" relates to it, then the whole phrase still makes no sense. There was nothing in the film to suggest that what Ursa said was true. Only the opposite.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

gdb.

Well, it's more a creationist argument, taking into consideration that Superman beat those with no morals, thus, implying that evolution doesn't win, that adds to the many examples of biblical symbolism to the movie.

Yes, I don't deny that we adopted certain morals to enhance our survival as a race, but as humans we also choose when to ignore such morals to our benefit.

And in your last paragraph, I agree, I never thought of it that way.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I'm just saying, let's call a spade a spade--someone (probably Snyder) thought that sounded cool, so it was put in the movie. But it wasn't very well thought out and doesn't make a lot of logical sense in context. That goes for a lot of things in this movie, so no biggie.

 

[The Iron Koob]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

Why isn't it a possibility that Faora was wrong. She was a soldier, not a philosopher. Don't bad guys usually have a wrong take on the world?

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

From wikipedia:

"The planet Krypton faces imminent destruction due to its unstable core, the result of years of depleting Krypton's natural resources"

So, self-serving Kryptonians thinking only of their own material well-being and not the well-being of their planet and future generations, were responsible. Is that not the definition of an immoral society? And fictional civilizations can do as they please, but if we're using some unspoken, abstract fiction to define what "evolution" means and how "morality" relates to it, then the whole phrase still makes no sense. There was nothing in the film to suggest that what Ursa said was true. Only the opposite.

As it's said in the movie, their reserves were exhausted and they made a choice, they didn't choose Jor-El's alternative, they made the wrong choice, that doesn't add anything to your side.

 

[gdb]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

gdb.

Well, it's more a creationist argument, taking into consideration that Superman beat those with no morals, thus, implying that evolution doesn't win, that adds to the many examples of biblical symbolism to the movie.

Yes, I don't deny that we adopted certain morals to enhance our survival as a race, but as humans we also choose when to ignore such morals to our benefit.

And in your last paragraph, I agree, I never thought of it that way.

Well there's a genetic component and an intellectual component to morality, to be sure.

The whole movie has dog whistles for a variety of people. I view it as a pretty good sci-if movie even with the out-of-place gratuitous scene in the church that brings the plot to a halt. While other people probably go away thinking it says that even Jesus Christ would kill someone given the circumstances.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I'm just saying, let's call a spade a spade--someone (probably Snyder) thought that sounded cool, so it was put in the movie. But it wasn't very well thought out and doesn't make a lot of logical sense in context. That goes for a lot of things in this movie, so no biggie.

It does make sense.

Why isn't it a possibility that Faora was wrong. She was a soldier, not a philosopher. Don't bad guys usually have a wrong take on the world?

 

[gdb]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

The film makers are just trying to please as many people as possible so it can have a big opening weekend.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

To break it down one last time--Krypton was an immoral society that you claim was "evolved" in this sense. The planet was destroyed by these people, killing off almost the entire population, and the few remaining immoral remnants were also all later destroyed by relatively "moral" agents. Ursa said immorality equals evolution, and those who are immoral always win. The quote was a meaningless platitude based on no reality we were shown. Frankly, I haven't discerned a counterargument to this that I can really follow. Dumb quote.

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

To break it down one last time--Krypton was an immoral society that you claim was "evolved" in this sense. The planet was destroyed by these people, killing off almost the entire population, and the few remaining immoral remnants were also all later destroyed by relatively "moral" agents. Ursa said immorality equals evolution, and those who are immoral always win. The quote was a meaningless platitude based on no reality we were shown. Dumb quote.

I've already refuted this, that line sets up the absolute adversity that the hero has to face, by coming out as a winner only prolongs the trope that good always wins and evil (immoral) always loses.

And in reality immoral people aren't exactly losing.

So again, not dumb sorry.

 

[karamazov80]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

And in reality immoral people aren't exactly losing.

Like Hitler? Milosovich? Saddam Hussein? Osama bin Laden? Ceausescu? The dynasty in North Korea?

 

[bandito]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

The quote could be written better. ... just remove "evolutionary" and "evolution".... strictly base it on morality and "Krypton's history"

 

[Gipetto0812]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I would suggest that what Faora is getting at is his morality makes him weak and becoming weaker instead of stronger is a setback to evolution in her pov

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

Like Hitler? Milosovich? Saddam Hussein? Osama bin Laden? Ceausescu? The dynasty in North Korea?

C'mon, you know, I'm sure you know, that there are many other examples of immoral dictators, politicians, businessmen and historic figures that didn't "lose", lets not take the discussion down that road-

 

[GasparZizou]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

The quote could be written better. ... just remove "evolutionary" and "evolution".... strictly base it on morality and "Krypton's history"

I think it's well written as it is.

 

[bandito]

Re: Hot Toys - MMS - MOS: General Zod (Tease)

I would suggest that what Faora is getting at is his morality makes him weak and becoming weaker instead of stronger is a setback to evolution in her pov

Morality does not change your genetic code.... but if it effects your ability to breed then it does.... As Kal-El effectively killed off all other Kryptonians (and the limited females).... and the birthing chamber by means to recreate more Krytonians... effectively Kal-El is the last Krytonian.

Foara was right, that Morailty doomed the Kryptonian's race (nothing whatsoever to do with evolution).... until the arrival of another female from the house of El... or Kal-El can repair/rebuilt the birthing chamber..