1/6 Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker-CRAIT (Force Projection) -

[Tortfeazor]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Interesting points, and laid out in a way that makes sense.

All of this bears discussion because the movie goes out of its way to show that Luke makes a "certain-death" choice (though even that "projection'll kill ya" idea is more than a little fuzzy) to do the holo-projection thing instead of actually coming to Crait. It's a conscious decision.

So given that it's a major plot point, a huge reveal, a conscious decision and the thing that leads to the death of the hero of the entire OT... what IS Luke's plan?

You infer it was to "boost morale to the troops" - but how could Luke randomly showing up (with it unclear how he even got there past a presumed blockade, what he's going to do exactly, and then simply wandering out to stare down a wall of ATATs) actually boost morale, other than a "star-sighting" for some downtrodden rebels?

And a morale boost for what? It's not like they are in a pitched battle that some more morale would make the difference for - they are surrounded, trapped like rats. And Luke doesn't show up with some rousing speech or announce some clever plan to the group - he actually IGNORES them all, except Leia of course.

I kind of love your inference that Luke's plan is to try to draw the best from those there simply by showing up - it's getting closer to something meaningful for Luke to die for - but that's pretty abstract for a life-and-death situation.

Isn't the "distract them while you guys escape" thing a better plan than "boost morale" or symbolically inspiring people to "dig deep into their strengths" by showing up? I love your idea he colluded with Rey. But the whole plan needs to have been disseminated to at least Leia and Rey for it to have been worth Luke throwing his life away for it.

These are the questions that still dog the sequence:

1. Does Leia know that Luke isn't really there, ie is just a projection (people seem to have taken Leia's "touch" reaction to mean totally different things)?
2. Luke is in essence killing himself - presumably for a reason beyond a morale boost or inspiration - so does he project to Crait with the "distract/escape" plan in mind?
3. If this is Luke's plan, why doesn't he tell anyone (even offscreen, and having it be an audience surprise later) including, importantly, Leia or Rey?
4. Does Luke's plan somehow involve (or even rely on) Rey, who he knows is heading there to help anyway and is outside?
5. If it does involve Rey, why does she not seem to be acting in accordance with any plan?
6. If Leia knows what Luke's plan is, why does she simply stand and watch him walking out like everyone else, and not arrange the escape as precious minutes pass?
6. If the "distract/escape" idea was the plan all along, then why does the movie rely on Poe to randomly realize that's the plan much later?

The point is, Luke Skywalker DIES because of this decision and this moment, so it really is worth discussing.

I think the simplest answer is this is all he could do. Prior to Rey leaving and his interaction with Yoda, Luke was still in the mindset of staying hidden and dying on Ahch To. However, he changes his mind and, having no way of leaving the island short of calling someone for a ride which would arrive too late, he becomes present in the only way he can.

Which, as the concluding scene shows, sparks hope throughout the galaxy, the hope that Leia and the resistance previously thought was gone. As Rey says, the galaxy needs that legend that is Luke Skywalker, and in going to Crait and facing down Kylo and saving the resistance he confirms that that Legendary Luke Skywalker is not the myth everyone thought he was, but he lives up to that legend by not only saving the resistance but by making the most powerful display of Force use we’ve ever seen in these movies. All the while he does it while living up to the Jedi ways of not being soldiers but peace keepers, by winning the battle by not even fighting and thereby redeeming himself in his own eyes, not as a failure as he previously thought, but as a true Jedi Master with hope for the future of the Jedi.

I think some of your questions are nitpicking to the extreme. It’s not a 100% coordinated plan. Luke knows Rey is heading there. He knows her abilities and her motivations. That’s enough. He knows Leia, when they first connect when Luke opens himself up to the Force again, it’s not much of a stretch to think he garnered some information there. So he knows their plight.

Clearly, to me, Leia knows something is up when he gives her the dice. Is it apparent on first viewing? No, but it’s not supposed to be. Obviously we all know there’s something awry because Luke looks different, but we’re not supposed to know why.

It’s all on screen man. The movie rewards thought and repeated viewings. Some people (not necessarily you) want everything spoon fed to them and seem determined to hate this movie because it’s not two hours of lightsaber fights and actually requires more involvement than the other films.

And to tie THAT point back to the figure, the people who are crying because there’s a footprint on the base and it’s not accurate because Luke doesn’t leave footprints obviously fall into that group. Cuz they could NEVER make the base based on the footprints Kylo leaves.

 

[SilverStar17]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

 

[Rudimus]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Excellent post Tortfeazor! Luke in the end sacrificed himself, not unlike Ben did in order for Luke, Leia & Han to escape. & Like Ben he'll still be there in spirit.

 

[SilverStar17]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

There are some pretty insightful posts in here though regarding the film, admittedly. Just not a discussion I feel like partaking in at the moment.

 

[TaliBane]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I think the simplest answer is this is all he could do. Prior to Rey leaving and his interaction with Yoda, Luke was still in the mindset of staying hidden and dying on Ahch To. However, he changes his mind and, having no way of leaving the island short of calling someone for a ride which would arrive too late, he becomes present in the only way he can.

Which, as the concluding scene shows, sparks hope throughout the galaxy, the hope that Leia and the resistance previously thought was gone. As Rey says, the galaxy needs that legend that is Luke Skywalker, and in going to Crait and facing down Kylo and saving the resistance he confirms that that Legendary Luke Skywalker is not the myth everyone thought he was, but he lives up to that legend by not only saving the resistance but by making the most powerful display of Force use we’ve ever seen in these movies. All the while he does it while living up to the Jedi ways of not being soldiers but peace keepers, by winning the battle by not even fighting and thereby redeeming himself in his own eyes, not as a failure as he previously thought, but as a true Jedi Master with hope for the future of the Jedi.

I think some of your questions are nitpicking to the extreme. It’s not a 100% coordinated plan. Luke knows Rey is heading there. He knows her abilities and her motivations. That’s enough. He knows Leia, when they first connect when Luke opens himself up to the Force again, it’s not much of a stretch to think he garnered some information there. So he knows their plight.

Clearly, to me, Leia knows something is up when he gives her the dice. Is it apparent on first viewing? No, but it’s not supposed to be. Obviously we all know there’s something awry because Luke looks different, but we’re not supposed to know why.

It’s all on screen man. The movie rewards thought and repeated viewings. Some people (not necessarily you) want everything spoon fed to them and seem determined to hate this movie because it’s not two hours of lightsaber fights and actually requires more involvement than the other films.

Hmm, the last minute change of mind and no-ride thing is interesting.

So was his X-Wing on acchto shown as a "this is his parking spot"? Or "this is where he dumped it"? Maybe destroyed at the bottom of a cliff where he dumped it might have helped visually if it was the latter rather than the intact X-wing sitting serenely at the bottom of the water (we know Luke can raise an x-wing from water, and can fly after being submerged.) It's an odd thing to show and then never return to it. Since your idea hinges on "no ride" what were your thoughts on the x-wing as shown?

I like what you've written, but in relation to Luke its seems so... I dunno. Pathetic maybe. Steadfast against Rey but then caves. Like he didn't think of the option of projection? And that then falls to the pathetic "all he could do." Like someone comes to seek your help because everyone's going to die imminently and you say "eh, done with the hero thing" but then change your mind after they've driven off, so you can't go now.

Luke unable to be a hero in person because he changes his mind and then "doesn't have a ride" is... sad. Somehow.

And the issue with the "Luke did it as a symbol of hope" thing only makes sense if Luke knew some rebels would survive the FO assualt on Crait - which he had no reason to believe and probably would be a fool for thinking it. Like he'd think some FO trooper would defect and tell everyone or something? These rebels were all in line to be vaporized - it's hard to tell the story of the legendary Luke when you're dust.

And there's no evidence Rey even knew what Luke was doing - other than this vague "the force makes anything possible, so everything's explainable." It gets to a point where you don't need to have force-sensitive people talk to each other onscreen - it's all up on the force's usenet group they download every hour.

And how does Luke "redeeming himself" - aka committing suicide in his attempt to save them (not sure if you agree with that "plan" though) - ensure hope for the future of the Jedi? Isn't it the reverse? The only guy who could have trained them just killed himself... and I don't really buy that Rey's a Jedi Knight (nothing said or shown onscreen suggests that either,) certainly enough to train Jedis, and so that makes Luke the "last" of the title, whatever its suposed to infer.

But you dodge the question when you say "Leia knows something is up when he gives her the dice" - knows WHAT exactly? And if she knows something, how does it impact her actions in this desperate situation from there on?

And finally - Two hours of lightsaber fights is the very LAST thing I would want. The very, very last thing. It was the thing I disliked most about the PT. They took something so cool and rare and made it like a flashlight.

I think the thing I'm getting at is indeed it takes "more involvement" - you're talking about creative invention, not deeper engagement with what's onscreen. "Is it apparent on first viewing? No, but it’s not supposed to be." Actually - KEY plot points are indeed supposed to be apparent on first viewing.

 

[Khev]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Interesting. This was what I walked out of my first screening thinking.

And re: dice - even if you accept the quite strange logic of the dice, what about even the choice of them as the prop Luke uses? I mean what do the dice actually mean to Leia - they are never even referenced in passing in the OT. They were a prop master's gag that made it into magazines so fans could have a chuckle - "haha Han has fuzzy dice." As an item, they mean nothing to Leia, even if she vaguely remembers them hanging in the Falcon. Such a STRANGE prop choice for a "let's remember Han" Luke/Leia emotional moment (and also as a reminder of Han to Kylo later.)

Maybe if they were referenced in the ESB "my hands are dirty too" scene, or some other great Leia/Han moment, but they never are.

As a prop choice for the Luke/Leia exchange in TLJ I found them to be a contrivance that doesn't organically flow out of the OT or TFA since there is not a single scene featuring the dice when Leia was ever actually in the cockpit of the Falcon. We as the audience are left to simply assume that she even knows they exist let alone recognize any sentimental attachment that Han might have had toward them. Just another example of the ST running with a notion that is given but the faintest on-screen explanation IMO.

But I've resigned myself to this new trilogy being "chock" () full of characters that know what they know simply because the audience does. TFA Rey plays like someone who watched the OT, TLJ Rose plays like someone who watched TFA so I guess we're to go one step further and just assume that Leia watched "Solo" and therefore is already well-versed in the significance of Han's dice, lol.

 

[davejames]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Wow, a lot of really long posts there I just don't feel like reading.

 

[Tortfeazor]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Hmm, the last minute change of mind and no-ride thing is interesting.

So was his X-Wing on acchto shown as a "this is his parking spot"? Or "this is where he dumped it"? Maybe destroyed at the bottom of a cliff where he dumped it might have helped visually if it was the latter rather than the intact X-wing sitting serenely at the bottom of the water (we know Luke can raise an x-wing from water, and can fly after being submerged.) It's an odd thing to show and then never return to it. Since your idea hinges on "no ride" what were your thoughts on the x-wing as shown?

I like what you've written, but in relation to Luke its seems so... I dunno. Pathetic maybe. Steadfast against Rey but then caves. Like he didn't think of the option of projection? And that then falls to the pathetic "all he could do." Like someone comes to seek your help because everyone's going to die imminently and you say "eh, done with the hero thing" but then change your mind after they've driven off, so you can't go now.

Luke unable to be a hero in person because he changes his mind and then "doesn't have a ride" is... sad. Somehow.

And the issue with the "Luke did it as a symbol of hope" thing only makes sense if Luke knew some rebels would survive the FO assualt on Crait - which he had no reason to believe and probably would be a fool for thinking it. Like he'd think some FO trooper would defect and tell everyone or something? These rebels were all in line to be vaporized - it's hard to tell the story of the legendary Luke when you're dust.

And there's no evidence Rey even knew what Luke was doing - other than this vague "the force makes anything possible, so everything's explainable." It gets to a point where you don't need to have force-sensitive people talk to each other onscreen - it's all up on the force's usenet group they download every hour.

And how does Luke "redeeming himself" - aka committing suicide in his attempt to save them (not sure if you agree with that "plan" though) - ensure hope for the future of the Jedi? Isn't it the reverse? The only guy who could have trained them just killed himself... and I don't really buy that Rey's a Jedi Knight (nothing said or shown onscreen suggests that either,) certainly enough to train Jedis, and so that makes Luke the "last" of the title, whatever its suposed to infer.

But you dodge the question when you say "Leia knows something is up when he gives her the dice" - knows WHAT exactly? And if she knows something, how does it impact her actions in this desperate situation from there on?

And finally - Two hours of lightsaber fights is the very LAST thing I would want. The very, very last thing. It was the thing I disliked most about the PT. They took something so cool and rare and made it like a flashlight.

I think the thing I'm getting at is indeed it takes "more involvement" - you're talking about creative invention, not deeper engagement with what's onscreen. "Is it apparent on first viewing? No, but it’s not supposed to be." Actually - KEY plot points are indeed supposed to be apparent on first viewing.

The X-Wing is a wreck when we see it. The door on his hut is made from one of the foils so he’s dismantled it for parts for at least that, and who knows what else. We’re shown the X-Wing in that state for the exact reason of us knowing that he has no way off the island if left with what he has.

And yes, it is a bit pathetic. But a key theme in this movie is failure and how one deals with it. That’s why he’s there in the first place, he’s kind of wallowing in his failure. But that’s his final lesson from Yoda. Luke finally learns to accept his failure and its lessons and insert himself back into the fight, rather than continuing to hide.

I think you’re looking at his “plan” from the wrong perspective. We as an audience always know the good guys will probably come out on top. But there’s nothing that says Luke goes into this thinking anything is guaranteed. Sure, it might not work. But if he fails, he tried, he was there. And probably made more of a difference in spectral form than if he were there in person.

Luke explicitly says “I will not be the Last Jedi”, and we’re told by Yoda that Rey has everything she needs. Luke was taught in part by “ghost” Obi-Wan, and Rey can be guided by Yoda or Luke or Ben or Qui-Gon or Anakin or whoever. And she has the Jedi texts. So she’s not left to her own devices.

Again, I think the Leia thing is obvious on repeated viewing, and another one of the things that we see is “off” on the first. There’s a moment between them where I think you can clearly see some understanding between the two and she knows what’s going on. These two have shared a link via the Force that we’ve seen demonstrated since Empire, so it’s not like it’s out of nowhere that she would know what’s going on with him. Now as far as Leia’s involvement with his “plan”, I believe Luke made his entrance the way he did to provoke everyone to realize there IS a way out of the mine. Did they wait longer than we would logically think they should to start looking? Perhaps. But again I think he relies on everyone’s inherent strengths to figure out the situation while he buys time by playing every bit of his appearance, right down to how he himself appears, on the First Order’s greatest weakness, that being Kylo’s emotions and carelessness when it comes to his hatred for Luke.

I still maintain the key plot points are there on first viewing. They require some reflection after the events unfold, but they’re there.

 

[Darth Fok]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I wonder what he’s going to look like in Ep9, might be worth the wait before buying this figure (which is probably a year or so away)

 

[SwedishHeat]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Ahh, just another reminder that nothing is CONFIRMED until it goes up for pre-order.

Silly rabbit, speculation threads are for kids.

 

[Prime Clone]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Excellent post Tortfeazor! Luke in the end sacrificed himself, not unlike Ben did in order for Luke, Leia & Han to escape. & Like Ben he'll still be there in spirit.

And not only did Leia put her "only hope" in Luke, just like she did with Ben, it was underlined by Artoo replaying her original holographic message that set Luke on his hero's journey. That helped Luke change his mind.

 

[che5ter666]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Hmmm okay my original post about getting sick of TLJ talk is kind of changing as there is actually a genuine discussion being held here now.

2 points I have.

1. I would have like to have seen a longer exchange between Luke and Yoda. Maybe Luke realised at that moment how powerful being a Force Ghost can be.

2. Everyone talking about Luke sacrificing himself. Have we thought about the idea that maybe his intention wasn't to sacrifice himself. Maybe he didn't know that projecting himself across that galaxy would kill himself? Maybe he didn't know how much force power he would consume and only realised after he finished projecting that, 'this is it'.

 

[Tortfeazor]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Hmmm okay my original post about getting sick of TLJ talk is kind of changing as there is actually a genuine discussion being held here now.

2 points I have.

1. I would have like to have seen a longer exchange between Luke and Yoda. Maybe Luke realised at that moment how powerful being a Force Ghost can be.

2. Everyone talking about Luke sacrificing himself. Have we thought about the idea that maybe his intention wasn't to sacrifice himself. Maybe he didn't know that projecting himself across that galaxy would kill himself? Maybe he didn't know how much force power he would consume and only realised after he finished projecting that, 'this is it'.

I really didn’t see Luke as being killed by the effort, although Kylo states earlier to Rey that she wasn’t projecting herself because the effort would kill her. But, Luke is far more advanced at this stage.

Luke is clearly exhausted by the effort, however he climbs back on the rock and he no longer looks quite as exhausted, he’s not actively dying, but looks rather serene and I believe makes a conscious choice to become one with the Force, just like Obi-Wan wasn’t killed by Vader, but becomes one with the Force prior to Vader being able to kill him.

He even mimics Obi-Wan’s dialog to Kylo about always being with him if he strikes him down in anger, although Kylo doesn’t truly kill him, but the effort and intent was there.

Rey then states that Luke was gone but “with peace and purpose”. I don’t believe he actually dies, but rather consciously chose to become one with the Force.

 

[pixletwin]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

I really didn’t see Luke as being killed by the effort, although Kylo states earlier to Rey that she wasn’t projecting herself because the effort would kill her. But, Luke is far more advanced at this stage.

Luke is clearly exhausted by the effort, however he climbs back on the rock and he no longer looks quite as exhausted, he’s not actively dying, but looks rather serene and I believe makes a conscious choice to become one with the Force, just like Obi-Wan wasn’t killed by Vader, but becomes one with the Force prior to Vader being able to kill him.

He even mimics Obi-Wan’s dialog to Kylo about always being with him if he strikes him down in anger, although Kylo doesn’t truly kill him, but the effort and intent was there.

Rey then states that Luke was gone but “with peace and purpose”. I don’t believe he actually dies, but rather consciously chose to become one with the Force.

But in order to become “one with the force” one must die. Soooooooooo......

 

[jedijim3002]

Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRMED

I really didn’t see Luke as being killed by the effort, although Kylo states earlier to Rey that she wasn’t projecting herself because the effort would kill her. But, Luke is far more advanced at this stage.

Luke is clearly exhausted by the effort, however he climbs back on the rock and he no longer looks quite as exhausted, he’s not actively dying, but looks rather serene and I believe makes a conscious choice to become one with the Force, just like Obi-Wan wasn’t killed by Vader, but becomes one with the Force prior to Vader being able to kill him.

He even mimics Obi-Wan’s dialog to Kylo about always being with him if he strikes him down in anger, although Kylo doesn’t truly kill him, but the effort and intent was there.

Rey then states that Luke was gone but “with peace and purpose”. I don’t believe he actually dies, but rather consciously chose to become one with the Force.

Additionally, when we’ve seen Jedi die or get killed in the past, they leave a body. Those who become one with the Force consciously do the Houdini and leave their clothes behind.

I see your logic and it does make sense.

Wouldn’t it be great if JJ takes everything Ryan did and all the events of TLJ and made it a flash forward in Luke’s mind?

We start in E9 with the flash forward of E8 and come back to Luke on the hillside turning to see Rey and take the saber. Then instead of tossing it he says, “Let’s begin.”

JJ could then develop all his ideas he spent time and effort thinking about, constructing, and set up that RJ deconstructed and make the movie ending he envisioned.

It would keep the fans of the film who like it by taking into account the cannon and their feelings of that particular timeline, at the same time reconciling the fans who opposed it by giving them the ending they wanted as well.

Luke obviously is a flawed character who is not perfect and has these thoughts and doubts but when it counts he peers into the future to see possible outcomes of his actions and chooses a different path. A better path. Avoiding his potential mistakes.

Perhaps that’s why he walked away in the first place was because he couldn’t spend all his time looking forward avoiding potential conflicts and ignoring the present “Living Force” as Qui Gon warned.

Pretty sure this won’t happen but in my mind it would be a nice way to reconcile the divide that RJ created in the fandom.

 

[Tortfeazor]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

But in order to become “one with the force” one must die. Soooooooooo......

Yes, but dying in that sense is really only in the physical sense. Not quite death in the way we traditionally think of it. Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc. may be “dead”, but they’re not “gone”.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

It was nice of JJ to thank Rian in his post last week but really he must be pissed.

 

[pixletwin]

Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRMED

Yes, but dying in that sense is really only in the physical sense. Not quite death in the way we traditionally think of it.

Ah. You mean death in the way you “traditionally” think about it. I understand you now. Traditions do vary quite a bit on that subject, you know. :

 

[Tortfeazor]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

Ah. You mean death in the way you “traditionally” think about it. I understand you now. Traditions do vary quite a bit on that subject, you know. :

Typically death, physical death, is caused by something. Failures of a system, external trauma ... People don’t just die based on choice. That’s all I’m getting at

 

[Turtle882]

Re: Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Luke Skywalker (Force Projection) - CONFIRM

It was nice of JJ to thank Rian in his post last week but really he must be pissed.

Why would he be pissed? He didn't direct TLJ, but he was the EP. If he hadn't liked the direction, it wouldn't have gone in that direction. Plus three years ago, JJ after having read the script for TLJ said he wished he we're directing it. The idea of JJ being a great planner who maps everything out for serial installments... It's funny. He relies heavily on a mystery box method of story telling that presents a lot of questions with infinite possibilities to answer those questions and then kind of organically goes along with it. It makes for very flexible story telling. TLJ seems right up his alley in that regard.