How could Old Ben be so wrong?

[Wor-Gar]

 

[barryo]

soooooooo.............is this thread some kind of experiment wor-gar?????.......

 

[Wor-Gar]

soooooooo.............is this thread some kind of experiment wor-gar?????.......

It does seem to be, doesn't it?

Wor-Gar's Great Experiments in the Absurd:

Coming soon: Why Terminator LIES!
Why can't a Terminator transport a gun through time in a skin sandwich if it can transport itself?

 

[FLOSI]

It's a distance, not a time.

Ah.... So, do you want to suck all 8 parsecs of my peepee?

 

[The Mike]

Nah, you're more likely to get the kid to go the path you want when the lie is mixed with some kinds of truth. Even the smallest bits. Trust me it works.

I'm a teacher (as I know you are Josh) trust me, if you want a kid to do anything lying to them about why they should or shouldn't works 100% of the time. Trying to reason or explain works less than 30%. Obi-Wan was just being a good teacher.

 

[Darthrazz]

[/IMG]

 

[The Josh]

I'm a teacher (as I know you are Josh) trust me, if you want a kid to do anything lying to them about why they should or shouldn't works 100% of the time. Trying to reason or explain works less than 30%. Obi-Wan was just being a good teacher.

This man speaks the truth.

 

[Wor-Gar]

This man speaks the truth.

Good to know our children are receiving the best in education.

 

[The Josh]

Good to know our children are receiving the best in education.

We do what we can.

 

[The Mike]

In reality most teachers are 40% educator and 60% crowd control specialist. Blame the parents for not imparting an importance to education to where I have to lie.

 

[The Josh]

In reality most teachers are 40% educator and 60% crowd control specialist. Blame the parents for not imparting an importance to education to where I have to lie.

Teaching is actually easy its getting everyone to focus for 5 seconds that takes the work.

 

[Wor-Gar]

60% crowd control specialist. Blame the parents...

I do.

How you guys can impart anything on kids, having been one myself ( a kid, not a teacher) is totally beyond me. But I applaud you.

 

[DiFabio]

I have the answer.

In 1977, Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker (simply known as Luke's father) were two different people.

Vader did betray and murder Anakin Skywalker. Anakin did want Luke to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. Etc.

They needed a twist, Lucas had that whole "father/son" concept in an early draft so they changed things up for Empire. Good thing too, it's one of the most iconic moments in movie history.

But anyway, as far as Star Wars in 1977 goes, Anakin and Vader were two separate characters. Obi-Wan wasn't lying, Alec Guinness wasn't playing him as if he was keeping something from Luke, and Vader was just that, Vader no relation to Luke.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Oh, is that what it was? OK then.

 

[The Mike]

But the father/son was leaked in 1977.

A lot of buzz has surrounded a recent post at retroist.com concerning an alleged major spoiler leak made two years before The Empire Strikes Back was released. The article, which we’ve identified as having appeared in the July 24, 1978 issue of The San Francisco Examiner, relays comments made by Dave Prowse (Darth Vader) claiming that the sequel would reveal that Darth Vader is in fact Luke’s father. Actually, it turns out, this little rumor had been dropped several months earlier in a fanzine called Little Shoppe of Horrors #4 (April 1978), which featured an exclusive (and lengthy) Prowse interview (reprint copies can be found on eBay, which is where we picked up ours thanks to a tip from SW bibliographer Bob Miller).

Among the passages of the interview, which, according to the author, were collected between October and December, 1977 (including a public discussion at the Horror Elite Convention in October), were these sentences, which seem to mirror the comments made in the SF Examiner interview:

“In the next film, there is going to be a confrontation between Luke and Darth Vader and they then discover that Darth Vader never killed his father, that Darth Vader IS his father. So son can’t kill father, and father can’t kill son — so Darth Vader lives into the next sequel.”

I guess you could say that George changed it on the fly after Star Wars was already in production but considering how the studios weren't sure of it viability I would assume that the major work on the sequel didn't come until after it was selling out left and right and therefore the idea and concepts were already well known.

 

[Wor-Gar]

George's explanation was always that he had to condense his epic vision into 2 hours and a very modest budget. Once all hell broke loose with Star Wars, then he brought back some of the ideas he had discarded for simplicity of the story.

I'm sure that's all true.

And we all know the reality of why Ben "lies" about the Vader thing. Been the case since ESB opened and people were certain it was Vader lying about being Luke's father, not Ben lying.

All I'm saying is: through the PT, George sure made Ben out to be a liar about most things.


"Too accurate for Sandpeople." -- WRONG! Is he kidding, turns out that Stormtroopers are the worst shots in the galaxy next to Greedo.

 

[DiFabio]

I don't believe that and I didn't believe it when it popped up last year.

They withheld all that information from Prowse during the filming of Empire because they thought he'd spill the beans. He had alternate dialogue ("Obi-Wan killed your father") and everything.

I even read that he was pissed after the fact that they kept it from him and didn't trust him with the information.

That's one big contradiction of an article right there. I'll never buy that Lucas had the entire story planned out in his head. Bit and pieces, yeah (twins, father and sons, brothers becoming enemies etc.) but it was still a process that was taking twists and turns that could end either way. His original screen plays for Empire were horrid too in the Making of the Empire Strikes back book.

Maybe in '78 or '79 they finalized the father/son thing, but I doubt 1977. And even so, I doubt Lucas was thinking that during the filming of Star Wars in '76 and prior to that even.

Same with Leia. He had no where to go with the love triangle angle and just made Leia "the other" that Yoda was speaking of. I love the Vader/Luke angle, but Luke/Leia seems totally contrived and out of context.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I don't know. Star Wars hit big, fast. I would believe within a month of May 25th, 1977, Lucas was already thinking of sequel ideas. Wouldn't you?

And certainly the father/son story isn't hard to come up with. It could have been bantered around with many other possible story ideas.

Hell, look at all the story ideas that come up in the Nolan Batman threads. Certainly some of those ideas will come to pass.

 

[DiFabio]

I don't know. Star Wars hit big, fast. I would believe within a month of May 25th, 1977, Lucas was already thinking of sequel ideas. Wouldn't you?

And certainly the father/son story isn't hard to come up with. It could have been bantered around with many other possible story ideas.

Hell, look at all the story ideas that come up in the Nolan Batman threads. Certainly some of those ideas will come to pass.

Yeah, I'm sure it was. But in terms of pre-1977 and the film's debut I'm sure the origin of Vader wasn't set in stone or even finalized.

That's also coming from David Prowse's mouth. Of all the people to spoil it was him, the person they purposely withheld dialog from? I doubt that.

That and the whole thing of Mark Hamill not remembering filming the "deleted" construction of the lightsaber scene, only to then understand it for CV are baffling to me. They're like polar opposites of what was cited as actually happening. Complete contradictions.

And again, if those rough drafts for Empire were any indication, things could have been much different in the films, nothing like what we ended up getting.

Remember, Lucas claims that he had Episode I-III in his head, one big epic "Star Wars" saga, and yet you watch him behind the scenes and he's bumbling and hasn't even begun writing the damn things. Par that with all the mistakes and contradictions he made in the actual films at tying the trilogies together and I call bull____.

Writing is an art, of course people make it up as they go along. I don't see why Lucas or fans like to think it was one big story when it most likely wasn't. Stories change, scripts change, it's the process of filmmaking.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Remember, Lucas claims that he had Episode I-III in his head, one big epic "Star Wars" saga

I never bought that claim. I think Lucas had a world of ideas swirling around in his head, endless possibilities, but nothing had taken real form until he had to sit and actually plot out a new movie each time.

If it was so clear in his head then we wouldn't have gotten the inconsistencies that we did.

Did he really envision his epic hero cowboy, Solo, to do nothing in the last installment? Weren't the Ewoks created to be half priced Wookies (the Kashyyk thing was just too expensive, PLUS Lucas claimed at the time that he wanted to change every Teddy Bear in the world to an Ewok)... stuff like that would indicate that Lucas made it all up as he went (beyond the large stroke concepts).



Anyway, as Vader says, this is all insignificant, next to the power of the midichlorians.