How could Old Ben be so wrong?

[Khev]

If you watch A New Hope, there's absolutely nothing there to indicate that Lucas intended to make Vader Luke's father or the central character in the story.

A New Hope didn't dig too deeply into anyone's characterization. So there was nothing to indicate Vader *wouldn't* be central to the story either. That you may have guessed wrong certainly isn't George's fault.

He was not SPACE JESUS!

No he was Space Adam. Perfect guy with no human dad who doomed billions because of a tragic shortcoming regarding him and his wife. Space Jesus was Luke.

 

[Hume77]

A New Hope didn't dig too deeply into anyone's characterization. So there was nothing to indicate Vader *wouldn't* be central to the story either. That you may have guessed wrong certainly isn't George's fault.

.

You're asking me to a prove a negative, which is silly. If you need to ask me to prove a negative, then you are basically admitting that you are wrong.

Here's the ORIGINAL SCRIPT for The Empire Strikes Back written by Leah Brackett - the one that Lucas was unhappy with and subsequently had re-written by Lawrence Kasdan (Lucas is not credited as screenwriter for Empire).

https://starwarz.com/starkiller/201...ack-first-draft-by-leigh-brackett-transcript/

Nowhere in this script Vader does reveal himself as Luke's father.

Now what's this all about - where Luke is talking to ghost-Obi Wan and Obi-Wan says I've brought someone for you to meet: YOUR FATHER, ANAKIN SKYWALKER:

BEN

It was my time to move on.

LUKE

To move on where?

BEN

To a different part of the universe. It’s all one, if you know the way. Or rather, if you understand the laws that govern the way. Physical laws. One day you’ll understand, Luke you will. You’ll be able to glimpse, as I have, the beautiful symmetry of the perfection of this creation we all belong to… Luke, I’ve brought someone with me.

Another half-ghostly form emerges from the mists; a tall fine-looking man who approaches Luke slowly, looking at him.

BEN
Your father.

LUKE

My father.

Even with his new-found maturity, Luke finds this an awesome, not to say shattering, moment. They look at each other.

SKYWALKER

You’ve grown well, Luke. I’m proud of you.

(Luke, not knowing what to say, says nothing)

Proud, and afraid for you. You’re going into battle untried. Did your uncle ever speak to you about Nellith? your sister?


LUKE

Nellith? No. Who is she?


SKYWALKER

Your sister.


174 (cont.)

LUKE

My sister? I have a sister? But why didn’t Uncle Owen….

SKYWALKER

It was my request. When I saw the Empire closing in, I sent you both away for your own safety, far apart from each other.

LUKE

Where is she? What’s her name?

SKYWALKER

If I were to tell you, Darth Vader could get that information from your mind and use her as a hostage. Not yet, Luke. When it’s time…

(he looks gravely at his son)

Luke. Will you take, from me, the oath of a Jedi knight?

Slowly, proudly, Luke draws his light saber and activates it, bringing it to the salute. Skywalker does the same. Ben and Minch also raise their sabers, standing by as witnesses.

*********


From the Luke/Vader fight:

VADER

You’re very good, Luke. But I’m twenty years older and stronger than you in the use of the Force. You haven’t a chance with me…any more than your father had.

***************


But wait, there's more.

Here's a quote from Lucas reaching out to the Lost creators, Lindelof and Cuse:

https://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2010/05/lost-gets-a-letter-from-george-lucas.html

"Congratulations on pulling off an amazing show. Don't tell anyone ... but when 'Star Wars' first came out, I didn't know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you've planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories -- let's call them homages -- and you've got a series."

 

[Kamandi]

Vader: "Luke, I am you father!"

Luke: "Really? How do you know? We might just have accidentally shared a last name! You didn't see me being born. Didn't know mom was knocked up with twins (and technically won't know until next movie). Didn't know there was a boy and girl. You weren't there when she named us. You really didn't see me face to face until I stepped into the carbon freezing chamber a while ago. You might have caught a glimpse of me yelling at you from across the Death Star hanger, but you didn't know who I was at the time."

"So honestly, how the ____ do you know you're my father?"

 

[Khev]

You're asking me to a prove a negative, which is silly. If you need to ask me to prove a negative, then you are basically admitting that you are wrong.

I didn't ask you to prove anything. I made a statement of fact.

 

[joebizz34]

One issue I did always have is why they went through so much trouble to hide Luke from Vader along with Leia but give Luke the last name of Skywalker. LOL, I mean at least Leia had a different last name to hide her better. I mean isn't having Skywalker as your last name a give away? See now this thread has me nit picken too.

 

[Hume77]

One issue I did always have is why they went through so much trouble to hide Luke from Vader along with Leia but give Luke the last name of Skywalker. LOL, I mean at least Leia had a different last name to hide her better. I mean isn't having Skywalker as your last name a give away? See now this thread has me nit picken too.

They did that because Lucas had no idea that he was going to make Vader Luke's father when he wrote A New Hope.

 

[Wor-Gar]

A lot of people here seem to be missing the point...

Whether Lucas had a plan or not (which I don't think he did), it has nothing to do with how Lucas chose to make Ben a liar. Plan or no plan, Lucas could have taken the time to soften the inconsistencies in Ben's original ANH explanation of things.

 

[Kamandi]

Or how Ben "hid" Luke at the Lars ranch.

WTF? How is that a hiding place? The home of Anakin's step-dad, step-brother and sister-in-law!

"Hmmm... Anakin's mom lived her later years here. He'll never think to check this place!"

In ANH Vader should have LOOKED THERE FIRST!

Plan or no plan, Lucas could have taken the time to soften the inconsistencies in Ben's original ANH explanation of things.

Agreed.

 

[Darth Mitchell]

Vader: "Luke, I am you father!"

That's not correctly quoted

Vader: "Obi-Wan never told you what happend to your father"
Luke: "He told me enough, he told me you killed him"
Vader: "No, I am your father"

 

[Darth Mitchell]

One issue I did always have is why they went through so much trouble to hide Luke from Vader along with Leia but give Luke the last name of Skywalker. LOL, I mean at least Leia had a different last name to hide her better. I mean isn't having Skywalker as your last name a give away? See now this thread has me nit picken too.

It is said Skywalker is a common last name in the Star Wars universe

 

[Darth Mitchell]

Or how Ben "hid" Luke at the Lars ranch.

WTF? How is that a hiding place? The home of Anakin's step-dad, step-brother and sister-in-law!

"Hmmm... Anakin's mom lived her later years here. He'll never think to check this place!"

In ANH Vader should have LOOKED THERE FIRST!

Why would he? He wasn't looking for Luke in ANH.

 

[The Mike]

That is true. One great thing that ROTS did was set it up even in Padme's death that Vader would have thought that the child would have died with her. Luke could have been hidden on Coruscant for example in plain view of the Empire under a different name and Vader would have had really no reason to assume something different.

 

[Khev]

Plan or no plan, Lucas could have taken the time to soften the inconsistencies in Ben's original ANH explanation of things.

I agree as well. Why go out of your way to prove that Sandtroopers are some of the most accurate sharpshooters in the galaxy when Ben has already stated the opposite. Just make the snipers shooting the pod racers weequay marauders or something.

Some of the other inconsistencies could have easily been explained with one or two lines of dialogue. Just have Anakin make an offhand reference in front of Obi-Wan about wishing he could have a kid to one day pass his knowledge and lightsaber to. Done.

 

[pixletwin]

Doesn't bother me. I am happy with the idea that Ben lied to Luke so he could manipulate him.

 

[a-dev]

@ Kamandi

Yeah that was pretty stupid but we can't blame the prequels alone for that one unfortunately.

 

[Kamandi]

Why would he? He wasn't looking for Luke in ANH.

Vader just chased a ship with stolen DS plans to Tatooine. Certainly he would be thinking of significant things that might be on the planet of interest to the rebels.

Who are the droids going to give the plans to? Ben should have been the first thing that sprung to mind. And then why would Obi-Wan be living here? Where would he be? Shimi's husband has an old farm down there. Might be a place to start looking.

By design or accident Vader would have found Luke. Ben chose a crappy hiding place for the kid.

 

[Hume77]

I didn't ask you to prove anything. I made a statement of fact.

Not a fact, but your opinion - that there's nothing to indicate in the first film that Lucas didn't think Vader would someday be a central figure. In my opinion, the film itself indicates to me that Vader wasn't meant to be the central character, but rather that Luke was, given how the focus is on Luke and Vader is depicted as cow-towing to the higher Empire officers. I had guessed that Lucas didn't intend Vader to be the father when he wrote ANH.

But now we know that I guessed RIGHT because Lucas never intended Vader to be Luke's father because Lucas admitted it. You may have guessed that Lucas always intended Vader to be the father. That you may have guessed wrong certainly isn't George's fault.

https://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2010/05/lost-gets-a-letter-from-george-lucas.html

Here's a quote from Lucas reaching out to the Lost creators, Lindelof and Cuse:

"Congratulations on pulling off an amazing show. Don't tell anyone ... but when 'Star Wars' first came out, I didn't know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you've planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories -- let's call them homages -- and you've got a series."

Now, you might respond by arguing that there is a difference between planning on Vader being "central to the story" and him being Luke's father. Of course Lucas intended Vader be a major figure in the story - we have concept art for Vader going back to pre-production on ANH.

The major problem here is that you have misquoted me. What I said was that Vader was not intended to be "Luke's father and the central character in the story." Not merely "central to the story," as you incorrectly quoted me, but the central character. And if he's not Luke's father, there's no way he can be the central character. Read the original script of Empire - Luke is the central character, as he was in ANH. Vader is his #1 nemesis, so of course he's "central to the story," just as Apollo Creed is central to Rocky or Clarence Boddicker is central to Robocop. But he is not the central character in that story. The central story is Luke's coming of age story - boy leaves home, sets out on a journey in which he discovers his inner strength and eventually becomes a man. The nemesis is the major obstacle that our hero must overcome in order to triumph.

What sometimes happens is, the nemesis may be so cool that he makes more of an impact on pop culture than the hero (think Terminator). Lucas' (or whoever decided that Vader be Luke's father) great moment of inspiration was recognizing how well the audience responded to Vader after ANH came out. He realized that the villian had become more popular than the hero, and thus rewrote the story to shift the focus more towards Vader. THAT was a great decision. As DiFabio said, writers sometimes change their stories as they write them. Moments of inspiration may come only after one is fairly deep into writing the story.

 

[FLOSI]

Know your role. You're the bottom, sugarbuns.


ps, no more fish tales. 8mm =/= 8 parsecs.

 

[Khev]

Vader had no knowledge that Ben was living on Tatooine or that he even still existed. He was obviously taken aback when he felt Ben's presence on the Death Star.

 

[pixletwin]

Growing up Luke was the main character (the hero). Vader was the main bad guy. Everyone else were supporting characters.

I am pretty sure that the majority of fandom felt this way.

The PT changed that a bit. Now Anakin is the over-arching hero. But Luke is a close second.