How the new rule impacts this forum.

[Stitch_Fett]

Re: New forum rule

Due to many reasons my last post was a year ago, but before somebody start the "what's your stake at this" let me assure you that I have come to this forum every single day as a visitor and I have seen all the major issues that now are threatening to break apart the whole place and I would like to tell you what I loved about this forum from the others.

I really don't see what the problem is here?
Somebody makes a nice custom; they make a thread and post a pic of it.
Then if you like it and want to know more, you PM them.
Then it's out of Dave's hands and everybody’s happy

When I first find this place that was what this forum was all about, yes there where commissions and castings offered but essentially it was a "look what I did" and "how I can make one" or "my custom 1/6 ~~~~ wip", it was about community, friends and welcoming everybody to the whole "they are not making it then we will", but let's be honest and clear the whole mass marketing or more than 1 for public re-sale IS ILEGAL and Dave as all the right to protect himself from any legal repercussions.

The following is an excerpt from a Hasbro press release a few years backs but it basically the opinion of most companies;

"G.I. Joe.com has updated tonight with Customizing Guidelines. There has recently been some confusion as to what constitutes the legal resale of customized product and what constitutes trademark infringement. The following guidelines for using Hasbro trademarks should provide some clarity.

Quote:
1. Hasbro encourages the customizing of individual figures for personal usage, and can be resold as one-of-a-kind, out-of-package figures.
2. All Hasbro artwork, such as card art, cannot be reprinted without permission from Hasbro. These assets contain Hasbro-owned trademarks and logos, and cannot be sold or reproduced without Hasbro’s permission
3. Hasbro owned trademarks such as character names and the GI Joe brand name cannot be used without written permission from Hasbro.

As we look to the future of the G.I. JOE franchise, we want to ensure that the customizing community can thrive while Hasbro continues to protect the brand that it has spent the last 45 years creating. Hasbro will become more aggressive in the legal pursuit of counterfeit product that is being sold in all channels. We appreciate your cooperation with this matter.

Thank you."

Some people is saying that Dave is punishing everyone for the mistake of a few but what you are not seeing is the unwanted attention this is bringing to the hobby, every time somebody said "I will call the cops on him" you are bringing attention to all of us, and yes I do sell customs and don't want my listings took down because somebody made a mistake and the IRS suddenly took an interest in why uncle Sam is not getting his money.

My suggestion is as simple as DinoLast post;
1- Make a custom.
2- Make a thread and post a pic of it.
3- if you like it and want to know more, you PM the customizer.
4- it's out of Dave's hands and everybody’s happy

The WEB is full of space, even free websites, if you don't want the hassle of the PM's just tell people where they can contact you with the right title
"Want to know more about it? Contact me at Bla,bla.com.net"

Sorry if I got a little excited but believe me I have gathered sooo much knowledge from you guys and seeing you bickering over this and the whole CH fiasco as left the forum like a news channel and not as the gathering of artist I have learn from.

I'm done, you can bring the linch mob now. :emperor

 

[Ironman1188]

Re: New forum rule

Does that mean the Michael Vick commissionis cancelled?

 

[ProgMatinee]

Re: New forum rule

and yes I do sell customs and don't want my listings took down because somebody made a mistake and the IRS suddenly took an interest in why uncle Sam is not getting his money.

you mean customizers aren't claiming revenue on their tax returns?

 

[Stitch_Fett]

Re: New forum rule

you mean customizers aren't claiming revenue on their tax returns?

:eek

 

[Darklord Dave]

Re: New forum rule

The 1/6 customizing community is first and foremost A COMMUNITY. We all want to help others create something interesting and share techniques.

I'd like to think that profit is 2nd to creating something cool that you'd want in your own collection. However I wouldn't expect a sculptor, a painter or a cut & sew guy to put in a lot of time on something for someone else and not get paid.

I know it takes me long enough to create one custom, I just don't have time to make multiples to sell.

I'm leaning away from the secret commissions for head sculpts - letting it be public, but perhaps a bit more organized.

 

[Kabukiman]

Re: New forum rule

If I could make one suggestion; I would really like keep commerce and custom/art discussion entirely separate.

I used to frequent this section a lot to learn new techniques and to see what other people were working on. I even had my own crappy thread, blogging about my (admittedly, crappy) craft.

The customs/art discussion section degraded to the point where it was just post after post of people asking where their stuff was. I couldn't find threads I frequented because they'd be buried under all the commerce posts. And the threads I subscribed to don't get posted to anymore.

Honestly, I've yet to have one good custom commerce experience and really wouldn't care if custom commerce went away completely from this board. I hope I don't offend anyone with that statement because I have the utmost respect for the customizers here, especially those who picked me up when I was first learning. It's just that I think the community would be better served with commerce side either being gone completely, or kept at a good distance from general custom/art discussion.

I hope some of that made sense to someone.

 

[toyadventurer]

Re: New forum rule

I'm leaning away from the secret commissions for head sculpts - letting it be public, but perhaps a bit more organized.

Sounds like a good deal. That way the community can stay involved in the development of the commission. Which is one of the most enjoyable parts of a group commission.

 

[toyadventurer]

Re: New forum rule

Honestly, I've yet to have one good custom commerce experience and really wouldn't care if custom commerce went away completely from this board.

I hope some of that made sense to someone.

That's sad to hear. I on the other hand have had dozens and dozens of good experiences. It is also one of the main reasons I come to the site.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Re: New forum rule

Well, in any case... I DO appreciate this site for everything it's done for me. And I appreciate Dave and all of my customers for everything... I really do. I never got into it for money, or business, and I didn't like the site because it was a venue to show off my stuff. I loved it because it was a place where I and other artists could share, learn, grow, etc. It BECAME a business, and that part of it really was something I wasn't prepared to deal with.

I let everyone down by my lateness, and am not going to let that happen again. Lesson learned. I just think that things here have changed so drastically due to many different factors, leading to a custom section that is completely different than before... and not for the better.

Our section is now rife with "I want this or that" or custom commission threads that have 50+ pages but no official sculptor attached yet or anything going yet. The customizers who used to frequent the site, talk about our art and share work... well, we are mostly behind or completely silent and rarely here. This place has changed.

And with Hot Toys raising the bar for fanboy exactitude syndrome, as I like to call it... we have to contend with people who are only in search of the perfect photo accurate head or costume, which leads to more pressure to perform. In short, customs here hasn't been fun for a while, and I don't see that getting any better.

I know that once I catch up, I won't be here as much... I will pop in occasionally, but I just don't like where we are or where we are going enough to ride it out to the end. I will gladly let my customs thread fall into the abyss and my PM box stay relatively empty. I came here as an artist, who wanted to share my craft. I got pulled in, wanting to help people out and cut cheap deals for work. I got bogged down and now everyone suffers for my lack of insight.

I will 100% do all business off site, as I would rather do that anyway. I wish all future costumizers the best here, as I know how hard it will be to do your work in this environment.

I feel bad for Dave, trying to make sense of this forum and protect the site and it's members. It's an almost impossible deed, and if things continue to get worse... I can see him having to get rid of the section altogether. There can be no accountability, no matter how hard you try. This "business" is all under the table stuff, no real records, no real files, or anything save PM's and Paypal receipts. It's something that if handled by people who don't care about their customers, can only lead to tragedy.

I'm out anyway, done anyway... so I leave the new guys and the ones who will ride the train ride to the end to discuss it... because they are the ones who will have to deal with it from here on in.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: New forum rule

I can't help but think that if it weren't for the impatient *********s who think two weeks is too long for a commission and the HotToys crazy child bearers, you'd be less inclined to bail.

 

[pixletwin]

Re: New forum rule

DA is 100% spot on.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Re: New forum rule

Well, I can understand people being upset about late items... that happens, especially when you are dealing with customizers who all regulate our own time and can easily get backlogged. It's a horrible thing, and we all have to deal with it in our own way...

But I just think that customs here is seriously dead. Waay before Dave started talking about this rule, even right before Howes hit the board.

Les hit hard times, I got bogged down with school, Mikey left, Darren got a bit backlogged as well, and many more. And on top of that, new people came in... some were great, excited and talented. Some saw dollar signs.

And then people started seeing what Howes was doing, starting a million threads with desires to see this or that head produced. And then nitpicking board wide got crazy, with people getting angry about a millimeter discrepancy on a Batman cowl or slight hair color difference on a superhero sideburn.... and it's just become a not fun place to be as a creator. Hell, even as a fan.

And now look at the customs section, most of the threads really don't have much to do with art at all. Some do, and bless them for trying to keep it alive. But much like paramedics who arrive 10 minutes after the patient has stopped breathing... it's over..

I can't say it's all Howes fault, I can't say it's Les' or My fault, or even the fans... it's all of our faults. The artists for taking on too much, Howes for doing what he did, fans for starting a million threads and begging for work to be done, it's all of us. But at least we can all learn from it and move forward.

I plan to. I won't do a preorder ever again. I will produce a figure and offer it for sale, and start on the next. If someone orders one before I am done... I will finish it in a week or two. But I will not do a "list". And I certainly won't do repaints. They are too slow for me anymore, I don't have the heart for them. But I am pretty sure my time as a fixture here, as an available artist... is done. Because eventually, mark my words.. Dave will have to tell all artists to keep it off the boards, either that or people will get burned and demand it to be so.

 

[Kabukiman]

Re: New forum rule

Again, wouldn't all these problems be solved just by banning custom commerce completely?

 

[pixletwin]

Re: New forum rule

No one wants to ban it completely. Finding the right compromise is the issue.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Re: New forum rule

I still think it will come to banning it completely, no matter what compromise is reached. Something else will happen, the wounds will never really heal. People will always be sore towards artists now... it's sad but true.

 

[Ironman1188]

Re: New forum rule

If custom commerce is banned entirely then that is a mistake.
Why don't we just get rid of al the 1:6 threads and thusly the 1:6 enthusiasts. They were a strong force on the board when Sideshow first started in the 1:6 business. As they have, over time, ignored the fan and strayed away from most 1:6, the customs grew. In a way, Sideshow's gearing away from 1:6 caused the customs to flourish.
I hope Josh is wrong. I always enjoyed the 1:6 discussions and debates here. But, I do blame howes for the bulk of this. The way he came in, the demeanor he displayed, pumping himself up and saying he was better than everyone else. I have been argued with because I hadn't sent him money but was still fighting for the guys who did. HE screwed the pooch entirely there. Not you Josh. Or Les. You both know that I have work still sitting with both of you. I don't pester you guys, or don't try to. You guys are here, being honest about whatever is delaying things, sharing your life with us. Thats not something that an update requires. Its above and beyond. Guys that take on the load of commissions, then don't update and don't post WIP pix when they say they will, or even post a sentence or two saying something got in the way I don't have it for you right now. Hell, it wasn't "guys" it was howes. I haven't seen problems with "z" he's taking on commissions but won't start one until the previous is done and paid for and people get them. Not thru ebay, but here where they ordered them. This was always "the place to be" and it became a second home to a lot of us. New friends were made. LOTS of business done. And, lets be honest, I think we've all benefited from the SSF board. But, if its going to become a place that cornerstones want to leave, or be here less, then something is wrong.
I haven't always agreed with Dave. Hell, its rare he and I are on the same page. I've been threatened, I've been censored, I've been told I'll be banned, but I'm still here. Because I like this place and most of the folks here. Its a good community or was. I can see if Dave is worried about legal repurcussions, although why that would suddenly be an issue I'm not sure. I would be more apt to believe that Sideshow exerted some pressure regarding fan customs competing with their product and, in some cases, being better.
If that is an issue, and Sideshow is not a partner in this site, if no one is profiting from their banners other then them, then they should be hopeful that folks stay here, not asking for stricter rules that might drive them out.

 

[KBA]

Re: New forum rule

For what it's worth I sure hope the legends of this board don't fade away. It's really cool to see Les wanting to go back to making figures just for fun. And when Darren shows some of his unique stuff it's awesome. Same with you DA. And when I first came here I shot you a question about dying materials and you were helpful, and welcoming.

There's commissioned artists and then there's commissioned arti$ts.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Re: New forum rule

Great post IM, and I appreciate the kind words bro.

And thanks as well KBA, and I entirely agree. Some are here to make MONEY, and only that. They saw an opportunity and decided to take advantage. Others of us are just here to do what we love, help others...and if we make money.. cool. If not, also cool.

But God, do I ever HATE those money grubbing *******s and what they did to my forum. And the competition that they started trying to build up. "Oh, you do this figure, well let me get angry because I TOO make that one. Or watch me do another one to try and best you!"

 

[Anzik]

Re: New forum rule

While I agree there has been an increasingly entitled 'spoiled brat' attitude in the last year or so. It used to be that if you were getting a Les, Mikey or DA repaint that was vastly better than the factory, people were tickled. Then somewhere along the line, if it didn't look like the actor cloned and shrunk, it wasn't good enough. The same thing has happened with the reception of SSC product in general. They used to be praised for their sculpts, then suddenly Mat, Andy and Oluf were treated as the old guard and if it wasn't a Trevor sculpt, why should we bother.
The good thing is that these things always work in a wave. The people looking to up the ante, will move on because those expectations will always rise and eventually they can't be met. Sooner or later SSF will return to what it was: A place for fans of SSC products.
We have seen the list of quality repainters grow from 3 or 4 to about 8. We have seen the custom sculpts go from wishful thinking to a reality. Suddenly the figure "I" always wanted could be done. This is natural free market growth, and its a good thing. Sure there are problems, mainly resulting directly from growth of the hobby. Honestly the artists are artists, and not businessmen, and its easier to learn to do business than it is to learn to be an artist. Sure it takes some of the sparkle out of it, sure there is burn out, but even that is temporary. This happens all the time when your hobby becomes your income. It becomes work and no longer an escape. I offer as an example Customikey. He was the first, life got in the way, he was absent for awhile and now he is making his way back in.
This too will pass, it'll find equilibrium, then change again. Thats just life.

 

[Darklord Dave]

Re: New forum rule

While I agree that there have been issues with nitpickers (see Serang House thread - unbelieveable!), and with people getting burned out with taking money for customs because they took on too much work at once, I don't think 1/6 customs are dead on this forum.

It's a hobby and I think there are still enough people out there that want to do it themselves that it's not going to die off.

Growing pangs is all it is, Ironman has a point that with SSC getting out of the 1/6th business it has just made the desire for more 1/6th grow. And I really think we're in a Rennaissance with Enterbay, Go Hero, Triad and others joining HT and SSC in the licensed world.

Or course there is the other problem Josh mentioned that hobbyists are getting more demanding - if they spend $300 on a custom it has to be as accurate as a $150 HT figure would be. And that may be unrealistic.