J.J. Abrams' Star Trek Into Darkness

[BaxterStockman]

Spoiler

i think the warp core got disabled before because he figured Kirk was still emotional and wouldnt think about what would happen if the Klingons found them. he would use the torpedoes, the Klingons would find the enterprise and kill them. i think Marcus was sending the enterprise crew to their death.

Which would have covered everything up nicely. Good point.

 

[thecapn]

Spoiler

i think the warp core got disabled before because he figured Kirk was still emotional and wouldnt think about what would happen if the Klingons found them. he would use the torpedoes, the Klingons would find the enterprise and kill them. i think Marcus was sending the enterprise crew to their death.

Spoiler

I don't remember how the line goes, but is it possible that Marcus started his project after Nero destroyed the Kelvin, not Earth? Then the timeline would make much more sense. And it's even plausible, because Marcus says that he's the one who recruited Pike, and in the '09 movie we learned that Pike wrote his dissertation on the Kelvin...so heck, it could've even been Pike that made Marcus realize the threat just in talking about his paper. But I think the movie specifically says it was in response to Nero attacking Earth, which makes it harder to reason away, definitely.

Yeah, getting the Enterprise destroyed and having Khan destroyed would've covered up everything nicely. But that doesn't jibe with how Marcus acts later when he took the Vengeance out to destroy the Enterprise. We're led to assume that Marcus took the Vengeance out because he was afraid Kirk would talk to Khan and uncover everything, and get word out, either by fixing the core or just by sending a message to all of Starfleet or something. But he talked to Kirk first. Why? If he just wanted the Enterprise destroyed, destroy it. The movie leads us to think that Marcus is feeling Kirk out to see if he knew anything, and if he didn't, then he'd let the Enterprise go on it's merry way as long as Kirk turned Khan over. Doesn't it seem that way? But because Kirk KNEW, and presumably, the crew knew, he had to blow the Enterprise up. But if he just wanted them gone, why even bother? Why not just destroy the Enterprise right away and go back to their secret base and make it look like the Klingons did it? He'd still get his war, and his problems would've been gone.

There's just so many logic bumps here that we have to reason through lol.

By the way, I'm a huge Trekkie...and I really enjoyed the movie when I went to see it. It's afterward when I'm trying to reason through it that's it's falling. Maybe if I go see it again (I plan to this weekend) I'll work through some of it.

 

[Kuzeh]

I didn't get a feeling of impersonation at all. The actors were cast based on a certain sort of resemblance i'm sure. But they all portrayed the characters in their own way.

It would have been terrible had they had him copy Kirk's method of speaking from the original series.

Some were doing "impersonations" for lack of a better term. Karl Urban was trying to sound like the original Bones. Simon Pegg seemd to be channeling the original Scotty's way of talking rather then just a Scottish accent. And Anton Yelchin even pronounces his "w" to sound like "V" like the original Chekov. So there is some attempt to sound like the original cast. Some do it and some don't. I think it works personally.

I didn't get that feeling... I do however think that Yelchin exaggerates the accent a little bit...

 

[screamingmetal]

Ok, question, and my apologies if I missed something. I've seen the movie, and now read the book, and there's one plot point that's really nagging at me.

Spoiler

Ok, so after Nero destroyed Vulcan and almost destroyed Earth, Admiral Marcus realizes Starfleet is nowhere near prepared for the inevitable (he thinks) war with the Klingons. So he creates Section 31 to start researching weapons and designing more war-prepped ships, tech, etc. He also sends more starships out to "explore" but really look for new tech they can adapt for weaponry. So one of these ships finds Khan early. Khan wakes up automatically while the rest of the crew stays asleep (that's what happened in TOS, assuming the same thing happens here). Marcus agrees to let him and his crew loose in exchange for help with his little project, since Khan is such a great tactical mind and experienced warrior.

As the project comes to a close, Khan realizes Marcus has no intention of following through with his end of the bargain, so he sneaks his crew into these special torpedoes behind Marcus's back.

Now, the book makes it clear that Marcus had no idea the crew were in the torpedoes, and he didn't know anything was less than hunky-dory with Khan until the terrorist attack in London (I got the impression in the movie that Marcus knew they were in there and wanted Kirk to shoot them at Khan to blow up all of the supermen, but whatever).

So Khan's motivation is SUPPOSED to be to escape with his crew (and, to a lesser note, get revenge on Marcus). So he blows up Marcus's base, then waits for the bigwigs to convene at their "secure" location and kills all of them too. Then he escapes to Kronos, hoping for...what exactly? That Marcus will survive his attack and come after him along with the torpedoes and he'll find a way to take them back and take the ship? I guess? He seems to want both a ship AND his crew, which would make sense considering the Botany Bay was essentially worthless. And I guess Kronos makes sense, since he figured Marcus would want to get his war started anyways and show how important his new ship was.

Let's say that makes sense. I'll give it that one. So Marcus sends the Enterprise after him with the torpedoes, and Kirk threatens to use the torpedoes on him. So he surrenders, presumably thinking he'll get on the ship, escape, kill or get rid of the crew and wake up his crew. So what if Kirk had just followed his orders? The torpedoes WERE armed...we know that from the McCoy/Carol scene. Would him and all his crew have been killed when the torpedoes were fired and struck?

Well, let's say for sake of argument that Khan reprogrammed the torpedoes so that they looked like they were armed but they weren't, or that he had some plan to get his people off of them if they were fired before they blew up. So he'd get them off. He wouldn't get his ship, but he'd get the crew. Or maybe he assumed that a member of Starfleet would try to capture him like Kirk ended up trying to do because that's the LAW, and Starfleet follows the law.I don't think Marcus would've bothered with that, but whatever. Maybe he even assumed Marcus would do it in true Starfleet fashion, send a team to arrest him, bring him back for trial, and he'd escape and get his crew back all on his lonesome from wherever the torpedoes ended up. All of this is all a stretch (and some sloppy, SLOPPY writing) but we can maybe reason it away if need be.

But here's the part that I can't wrap my head around no matter how much I think about it. WHY did Marcus blow the Enterprise's warp core at the edge of Klingon space? If Kirk had made his decision to disobey his orders BEFORE the warp core blew, then you could assume that Marcus found that out and was trying to remove his options to force him to either use his torpedoes or give him time to get the Vengeance ready to come after the Enterprise.

But Kirk didn't make that decision until AFTER the warp core blew. So Marcus obviously intended to blow the warp core all along (the book indicates that the fact that the warp core shutdown happened is the major reason Kirk changed his mind, because he was afraid they couldn't escape if the Klingons came after him, and they had a better chance of avoiding them with stealth than torpedoes, so at least in the book, Marcus was a dumbass. In the movie, it looks more like Kirk had an ethical dilemma and decided to do the "right" thing by Spock and it had little to do with the core, so take that for what it's worth). What was the point of that? If Kirk followed his orders, and considering how pissed he was about Pike, Marcus could safely assume he would, then he's send off the torpedoes, blow Khan up, and go home. He'd probably get his war, Khan and his folk would be dead, the whole thing would be covered up, no problem. And if Kirk didn't follow his orders, then you blow the core. It just makes NO SENSE to me to blow it preemptively.

The whole situation can only serve two purposes in my book: 1. To up the drama and make the plot work so that the Vengeance can come get them; or 2. So that the movie ties into the comics, where they made a big deal about how Marcus has inside control of the Enterprise before this even happened. Either way, it has ZERO to do with the actual plot of the movie.

That was long, but I wanted to make sure I worked it out, lol.

There's other nitpicks - where the heck was the big starbase and allllll those ships when the Enterprise and the Vengeance were duking it out over Earth? You'd think Starfleet would have someone come over to check it out, even if they were missing the command crew after the attack. And you'd assume that they'd defend the Enterprise since they'd never seen the Vengeance before, and send over a crew with hand communicators or something to see what was going on. Oh, and if communications were down with Earth, how the heck did the Enterprise call New Vulcan? Earth was RIGHT THERE. But those are much more insignificant than the big one above.

Just my two cents.

Spoiler

Section 31 was not created by Marcus, it existed before in the TV Show Enterprise and was actually created in Deep Space Nine. It's purpose is to safeguard the Federation by doing very secret dirty work.

Khan went to Kronos to escape the Federation because it's a place the Federation couldn't follow. What he was planning next I don't know.

Kirk taking the Enterprise to Kronos to take out Khan is not the law, it's illegal. Kirk took the mission because he felt it was the right thing to do but has misgivings about killing Khan without trial.

Marcus did not blow the warp core, he sabotaged it to strand the Enterprise. It was either to cover up lose ends by killing Kirk's crew by a conflict with the Klingons or to create an incident that would convince the Federation they should arm themselves against the Klingons. I think both were true, Marcus was hoping the Klingons would find the stranded Enterprise after Kirk kills Khan and get into a conflict that would end up with the destruction of the Enterprise. This would cover up John Harrison and Section 31 and also convince the Federation they should have an arms buildup.
That's at least how I see it.

 

[BaxterStockman]

Spoiler

Section 31 was not created by Marcus, it existed before in the TV Show Enterprise and was actually created in Deep Space Nine. It's purpose is to safeguard the Federation by doing very secret dirty work.

Khan went to Kronos to escape the Federation because it's a place the Federation couldn't follow. What he was planning next I don't know.

Kirk taking the Enterprise to Kronos to take out Khan is not the law, it's illegal. Kirk took the mission because he felt it was the right thing to do but has misgivings about killing Khan without trial.

Marcus did not blow the warp core, he sabotaged it to strand the Enterprise. It was either to cover up lose ends by killing Kirk's crew by a conflict with the Klingons or to create an incident that would convince the Federation they should arm themselves against the Klingons. I think both were true, Marcus was hoping the Klingons would find the stranded Enterprise after Kirk kills Khan and get into a conflict that would end up with the destruction of the Enterprise. This would cover up John Harrison and Section 31 and also convince the Federation they should have an arms buildup.
That's at least how I see it.

Spoiler

and with all that said. And no matter how they wanted to conclude the movie. They should have included the Klingons getting ready for war, or have that conflict starting during the final confrontation. It could have made for some really epic cliffhanger.

 

[Niltusk]

Spoiler

Section 31 was not created by Marcus, it existed before in the TV Show Enterprise and was actually created in Deep Space Nine. It's purpose is to safeguard the Federation by doing very secret dirty work.

Khan went to Kronos to escape the Federation because it's a place the Federation couldn't follow. What he was planning next I don't know.

Kirk taking the Enterprise to Kronos to take out Khan is not the law, it's illegal. Kirk took the mission because he felt it was the right thing to do but has misgivings about killing Khan without trial.

Marcus did not blow the warp core, he sabotaged it to strand the Enterprise. It was either to cover up lose ends by killing Kirk's crew by a conflict with the Klingons or to create an incident that would convince the Federation they should arm themselves against the Klingons. I think both were true, Marcus was hoping the Klingons would find the stranded Enterprise after Kirk kills Khan and get into a conflict that would end up with the destruction of the Enterprise. This would cover up John Harrison and Section 31 and also convince the Federation they should have an arms buildup.
That's at least how I see it.

I guess I don't follow. I realize Enterprise was farther back, but wasn't DS9 after this movie?

 

[Kabukiman]

I guess I don't follow. I realize Enterprise was farther back, but wasn't DS9 after this movie?

Section 31 made their first appearance on the show to us, the audience, in DS9. However, the organization has been around since before Enterprise on the Star Trek timeline.

 

[screamingmetal]

I didn't get that feeling... I do however think that Yelchin exaggerates the accent a little bit...

Yelchin's parents are from Russia and he knows genuine Russian speaking English accents. However, when Yelchin took the Chekov roll, he intently did Chekov's very off Russian accent out of respect for the character.

I guess I don't follow. I realize Enterprise was farther back, but wasn't DS9 after this movie?

Kabukiman put it right above.

 

[Niltusk]

Section 31 made their first appearance on the show to us, the audience, in DS9. However, the organization has been around since before Enterprise on the Star Trek timeline.

Gothca

 

[thecapn]

Spoiler

Section 31 was not created by Marcus, it existed before in the TV Show Enterprise and was actually created in Deep Space Nine. It's purpose is to safeguard the Federation by doing very secret dirty work.

Khan went to Kronos to escape the Federation because it's a place the Federation couldn't follow. What he was planning next I don't know.

Kirk taking the Enterprise to Kronos to take out Khan is not the law, it's illegal. Kirk took the mission because he felt it was the right thing to do but has misgivings about killing Khan without trial.

Marcus did not blow the warp core, he sabotaged it to strand the Enterprise. It was either to cover up lose ends by killing Kirk's crew by a conflict with the Klingons or to create an incident that would convince the Federation they should arm themselves against the Klingons. I think both were true, Marcus was hoping the Klingons would find the stranded Enterprise after Kirk kills Khan and get into a conflict that would end up with the destruction of the Enterprise. This would cover up John Harrison and Section 31 and also convince the Federation they should have an arms buildup.
That's at least how I see it.

Spoiler

Bah! I forgot Section 31 was on Enterprise. So Marcus just used an already existing section for his project. Can't believe I forgot that! Good point!

If Khan went all the way to Kronos just because they couldn't follow him, then that's extremely shortsighted. His long-range transporter was left on Earth, so he's stranded in the middle of frickin' nowhere with no way to get BACK to get his people, which he's so worried about. And heck, how does he know what Marcus will do with them in the meantime? If Marcus knows they're in there, he'll probably kill them all. If he doesn't, he'll probably load them on his ship or on multiple ships and use them, which would pretty much kill them. There's obviously a time sensitive issue there. Maybe Khan planned on joining the Klingons and leading the war to Earth? They spend a lot of time talking about that scenario in the book. Well, in that case, Marcus DEFINITELY would have used the torpedoes in the Klingon assault. No, I think Khan knew Marcus would send someone after him or come after him himself AND bring the torpedoes with him.

And yeah, I see the point on the warp core but that doesn't fit the way Marcus behaves later like I said in my last post (at least, not to me, anyways).

I have to go back and reread it, but from what I recall, in the "Countdown to Darkness" official canon-blah-blah comic, they make this huge deal about the fact that Marcus was the first officer of the Enterprise under Robert April and programmed in all this stuff so he could control it even if he wasn't in command anymore. Probably fits with the Section 31 background. So it wasn't EXACTLY sabotage, he ordered the ship to blow its own core basically.

 

[screamingmetal]

Spoiler

Bah! I forgot Section 31 was on Enterprise. So Marcus just used an already existing section for his project. Can't believe I forgot that! Good point!

If Khan went all the way to Kronos just because they couldn't follow him, then that's extremely shortsighted. His long-range transporter was left on Earth, so he's stranded in the middle of frickin' nowhere with no way to get BACK to get his people, which he's so worried about. And heck, how does he know what Marcus will do with them in the meantime? If Marcus knows they're in there, he'll probably kill them all. If he doesn't, he'll probably load them on his ship or on multiple ships and use them, which would pretty much kill them. There's obviously a time sensitive issue there. Maybe Khan planned on joining the Klingons and leading the war to Earth? They spend a lot of time talking about that scenario in the book. Well, in that case, Marcus DEFINITELY would have used the torpedoes in the Klingon assault. No, I think Khan knew Marcus would send someone after him or come after him himself AND bring the torpedoes with him.

And yeah, I see the point on the warp core but that doesn't fit the way Marcus behaves later like I said in my last post (at least, not to me, anyways).

I have to go back and reread it, but from what I recall, in the "Countdown to Darkness" official canon-blah-blah comic, they make this huge deal about the fact that Marcus was the first officer of the Enterprise under Robert April and programmed in all this stuff so he could control it even if he wasn't in command anymore. Probably fits with the Section 31 background. So it wasn't EXACTLY sabotage, he ordered the ship to blow its own core basically.

Spoiler

Yeah I haven't read the comic so what happens there is news to me.
I think Khan's plan was to kill Marcus in the attack and the people left investigating would find the attacker went to Kronos and feel they couldn't do anything about it, but Marcus lived because Kirk intervened and went after Khan. Maybe Khan was also hoping to self destruct the attack ship along with the transporting device after he beamed away which would've covered his tracks. Also Khan being who he is, wouldn't have been stranded on Kronos long. But it is a stupid move if he wants to save his crew. Maybe he had a ship there that he was going to use before his plan went awry.

I get the impression that Khan didn't think Marcus would place the new torpedoes on any ship that would go after him. He seemed surprised that Kirk had these new torpedoes and demanded how many from Kirk to confirm they are the torpedoes he hid his crew in. That's why he surrendered to Kirk, he wanted on the Enterprise to try and save his crew (why he didn't come right out and say it is unknown).
I think the torpedoes were armed so they looked convincing. Khan was hoping the prototype torpedoes would not be used before he could rescue his crew. Also, they might've not been really armed with warheads, that's why it didn't blow when Carol and McCoy were messing with it and when Carol desperately pulled the plug on it. So that would mean that when the missiles were sent to the Vengeance, Spock had them armed with a conventional warhead so they would destroy the Vengeance because he knew Khan would want his crew returned to him.

 

[abake]

Spoiler

Section 31 was not created by Marcus, it existed before in the TV Show Enterprise and was actually created in Deep Space Nine. It's purpose is to safeguard the Federation by doing very secret dirty work.

Khan went to Kronos to escape the Federation because it's a place the Federation couldn't follow. What he was planning next I don't know.

Kirk taking the Enterprise to Kronos to take out Khan is not the law, it's illegal. Kirk took the mission because he felt it was the right thing to do but has misgivings about killing Khan without trial.

Marcus did not blow the warp core, he sabotaged it to strand the Enterprise. It was either to cover up lose ends by killing Kirk's crew by a conflict with the Klingons or to create an incident that would convince the Federation they should arm themselves against the Klingons. I think both were true, Marcus was hoping the Klingons would find the stranded Enterprise after Kirk kills Khan and get into a conflict that would end up with the destruction of the Enterprise. This would cover up John Harrison and Section 31 and also convince the Federation they should have an arms buildup.
That's at least how I see it.

I agree with everything stated above.

 

[thecapn]

Spoiler

It's possible that Khan thought he would have time to go back for them after he got off Kronos. Especially if he thought Marcus was dead already. Though it doesn't seem like he thinks he's dead when he's in the Brig talking to Kirk, but maybe that was me reading more into it than I should

On the second note, there's actually a couple interesting points from the book that either got cut or just are used as explanation that sheds some light on the movie. Since the book got the writer's blessing, I'll take them - at least, for now - as canon, or at least as good possibilities.

1. Khan's lil tiny transporter that Scotty's carrying (and which was presumably in those duffle bags) wasn't actually a fully-functional transwarp transporter. The way it worked was that the mini transporter was custom built by Khan, and designed to relay him through a base on the moon with a minimal crew to a hidden ship, that THEN used all it's power to shuffle him off to Kronos, blowing it's warp core in the process. Which is why they couldn't just beam after him. It would take a looong time to replicate the entire process. It's still rediculous he transported all the way there, but that's more in keeping with Trek '09.

2. More important to this conversation - the whole scene with beaming the torpedoes is really detailed. So, apparently, the torpedoes WEREN'T armed. In fact, McCoy and Carol armed the one by accident. So I guess that points to the fact that Khan intended them to shoot them all at him and they'd just softland and do nothing (forgot about that in my previous post, sorry).

When Spock beamed them over, he activated ONE of them, taking the odds that Khan would have to scan them all one-by-one and would'nt scan that one in time to beam it off or know that anything was going down before it was too late. They all went off because the one blowing up blew the rest of their warheads.

There's also this long-winded story about how McCoy replicated biomatter and stuck them in the torpedoes so that with an initial scan they'd show as humans, but that just smacks of despiration to cover lazy writing in my book lol.

 

[shockwave]

Spoiler

Sorry but why didn't Starfleet/Starbase 1(?), and/or any other fed-ship, or if there was a Luna base detect both starships near our moon? Also no early warning sys that both ships were crashing to Earth?

 

[thecapn]

Spoiler

Yeah, well, that's a problem with a LOT of the Trek movies...at least in 09 they made an effort to explain where the fleet was. They didn't even bother this time around. Like you have a big old ship falling into the atmosphere and no one saw it coming!

 

[Niltusk]

Spoiler

This thread has the most spoiler tag usage I've seen in quite awhile

 

[BaxterStockman]

Spoiler

This thread has the most spoiler tag usage I've seen in quite awhile

I know! And i got in the habit of reading them so much from this thread that I spoiled some major plot point for Game of Thrones.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

Movie's been out for two weeks. Why not just designate this a 'spoiler' thread, and lose the damn tags?

SnakeDoc

 

[Dark_Knight_89]

Whilst i understood the story immediately, here is some information from Wikipedia. To be honest, none of the below information is anything new or anything that wasn't explained in the movie. But I thought it might help some people to read it.

SPOILERS



Arriving on Kronos, Kirk, Spock and Uhura set out to capture Harrison but are intercepted by Klingons. Harrison kills the Klingons almost single-handedly and surrenders after learning about the number of the prototype torpedoes aimed at him. Returning to the Enterprise, Harrison reveals his true identity as Khan, a genetically engineered superhuman who was awakened from a 300-year-long period of suspended animation by Admiral Marcus to develop weapons for a future war between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. The torpedoes are found to contain cryogenic pods with Khan's crew inside, who had previously been held hostage by Marcus.

The Enterprise is intercepted by an unmarked Federation warship, the USS Vengeance, designed by Khan and commanded by Admiral Marcus. Marcus demands that Kirk hand over Khan, but Kirk refuses. The Enterprise starts to warp to Earth to have Khan stand trial, but is attacked by the Vengeance mid-warp causing it to exit warp. With the Enterprise severely damaged, Kirk offers to hand over Khan and the cryogenic pods in exchange for the lives of his crew. Marcus refuses, revealing that it was his intention all along to destroy the Enterprise in his plan to dispose of the superhumans and start a war with the Klingons. The Vengeance prepares to open fire, but suffers a power outage caused by Scotty, who infiltrated the ship after following coordinates to Jupiter given by Khan to Kirk. Kirk, having left Spock in command, joins Scotty on the Vengeance after a space-jump with Khan from the Enterprise, and they take control of the bridge. Not trusting Khan, Kirk and Scotty attempt to incapacitate him by stunning him, but are overpowered when Khan proves to be more resistant to stunning than they had expected. Khan then kills Admiral Marcus and takes control of the Vengeance.

 

[JAWS]

I didn't get that feeling... I do however think that Yelchin exaggerates the accent a little bit...

Really? You don't even get it from Karl Urban. I mean he is doing a damn good Bones impersonation from the voice to his eyebrows.