J.J. Abrams' Star Trek Into Darkness

[screamingmetal]

Granted I still haven't seen it but from what I hear they go to warp (from Earth?) and a scene plays out lasting about 15 seconds (with no cuts to any different scene elsewhere which might have given an impression of a longer time passing) and they come out of warp at or near Kronos. 15 seconds. Scotty's line needn't even come into it.

I must've missed that, I believe you're right.
There is something in Star Trek that's called Transwarp Drive (the Excelsior was supposed to have this in ST3) that says a spaceship using this would be everywhere in the Universe at once and could travel almost instantaneously to anywhere. Maybe they have this in the Abrams Universe. The Abrams U. does have transwarp beaming (what John Harrison uses to get to Kronos) so the Transwarp theory for the Abrams U. might be the case.

 

[CelticPredator]

They could have had them go to warp in one scene and cut to another scene with a different set of characters elsewhere. It could have easily been a problem avoided. If you're going to just throw out anything that the previous Star Trek universe established for convenience then it shoulda been a total franchise reboot. Then it wouldn't matter, you'd just assume warp is even fastererererer in this new version of Star Trek

But you're still neglecting the pacing of that scene.

They jump into warp right after a tense buildup with Marcus. Kirk doesn't trust him, and he sneaks them into warp. They think they're safe....but then Marcus comes up close behind, with his monstrosity of a ship heading right for them, guns blazing.

It's the peak of the scene. You cannot ruin that. Physics, science, logic, and canon be dammed.

 

[screamingmetal]

And no one but nerds care.

And no one but Nerds watch Star Trek or Star Wars, count yourself as one.

 

[a-dev]

But you're still neglecting the pacing of that scene.

They jump into warp right after a tense buildup with Marcus. Kirk doesn't trust him, and he sneaks them into warp. They think they're safe....but then Marcus comes up close behind, with his monstrosity of a ship heading right for them, guns blazing.

It's the peak of the scene. You cannot ruin that. Physics, science, logic, and canon be dammed.

Sounds cool but I guess my priority would have been to not write that scene exactly that way. You can't **** on the universe you're writing in unless its a total reboot. Then you can make up your own rules.

 

[thecapn]

Sounds cool but I guess my priority would have been to not write that scene exactly that way. You can't **** on the universe you're writing in unless its a total reboot. Then you can make up your own rules.

Completely with you on this one. There's just no logical in-universe reason for the warp behaving the way it does. Now, screamingmetal does have a point - there is the little wrinkle of transwarp beaming that was supposedly Scotty of the future's idea (even though Scotty hated the transwarp project in STIII). Scotty does mention in ID that Starfleet commandeered his transwarp equation, and it obviously was used by Harrison. Maybe all starships were outfitted with it? That would obviously change things.

Now, as far as the Vengeance being faster - there is an in-universe explanation. In the original timeline, They "rewrote the warp scales" somewhere between TOS and TNG - and the TOS ships could only go a max of warp 7 or something like that, while TNG could go warp 9. So it could be that the Vengeance tech is more akin to the TNG scales than the TOS scales.

As far as the Vengeance being able to fire weapons: Phasers only travel the speed of light (at least, in the original universe). Torpedoes could in theory have mini warp drives...

If you look at warp theory, theoretically there's a bending of space around the ship, creating a bubble of normal time around the ship but shifting space around it (hence the name "warp"). The only way for this to make sense would be if somehow the Vengeance entered the Enterprise's warp bubble, then the space between them would've been normal space-time - but we've seen before (I think it was in Enterprise?) that's it's crazy difficult to have two ships in the same warp bubble even if they both WANT to be there. so the Vengeance would have to have an impossibly good pilot/computer, or it has some new tech that didn't exist in the old universe.

 

[K07]

I'm not worried about Abrams doing Star Wars. This film is apparently horribly written which even its defenders admit but people are nevertheless really enjoying it. If Abrams can make a horribly written film enjoyable he should do a good job with a film that (hopefully) will be written in some way decently. Mercifully it won't be these guys. Although I think their **** ups would actually be more excusable in the more fantasy-based Star Wars than they are here.

 

[Dark_Knight_89]

This thread makes me sad

 

[screamingmetal]

Completely with you on this one. There's just no logical in-universe reason for the warp behaving the way it does. Now, screamingmetal does have a point - there is the little wrinkle of transwarp beaming that was supposedly Scotty of the future's idea (even though Scotty hated the transwarp project in STIII). Scotty does mention in ID that Starfleet commandeered his transwarp equation, and it obviously was used by Harrison. Maybe all starships were outfitted with it? That would obviously change things.

Now, as far as the Vengeance being faster - there is an in-universe explanation. In the original timeline, They "rewrote the warp scales" somewhere between TOS and TNG - and the TOS ships could only go a max of warp 7 or something like that, while TNG could go warp 9. So it could be that the Vengeance tech is more akin to the TNG scales than the TOS scales.

As far as the Vengeance being able to fire weapons: Phasers only travel the speed of light (at least, in the original universe). Torpedoes could in theory have mini warp drives...

If you look at warp theory, theoretically there's a bending of space around the ship, creating a bubble of normal time around the ship but shifting space around it (hence the name "warp"). The only way for this to make sense would be if somehow the Vengeance entered the Enterprise's warp bubble, then the space between them would've been normal space-time - but we've seen before (I think it was in Enterprise?) that's it's crazy difficult to have two ships in the same warp bubble even if they both WANT to be there. so the Vengeance would have to have an impossibly good pilot/computer, or it has some new tech that didn't exist in the old universe.

The Transwarp thing from Trek's future does raise a major plot hole in the 2009 Star Trek film. Spock had Vulcan's "fastest ship" to stop the supernova that destroys Romulus. This should be considerably faster than the Enterprise from STID. So Spock couldn't get to Romulus as quickly as the Enterprise gets to Kronos? I think the distance from Vulcan to Romulus is even less than that from Earth to Kronos.
The Vengeance's warp capabilities are obviously far more advanced. I believe all the Vengeance would need to do is expand it's warp bubble to connect with the Enterprise's bubble and commence firing whatever they want.

 

[a-dev]

I've been watching TNG the past week or two. I'm on that season 5 episode where the all get addicted to a game. Ashley Judd is in it and damn she was hot at that age.

 

[CelticPredator]

And no one but Nerds watch Star Trek or Star Wars, count yourself as one.

I'm a nerd, but i'm not a "OMGZ LOGICS!" nerd. Movies are movies. None of this **** is real.

This isn't cerebral Star Trek. This is fun Star Trek. This is MOVIE Star Trek. Not TV show Star Trek. The universe is now theirs, and they can do whatever they please. The other universe still exists, and is still canon. So who cares.

 

[CelticPredator]

Although, most of the people who saw this movie, and loved it were not nerds, but regular average joes who work all day and don't care about Warp Cores and all that. And they enjoyed it. And that's who will make them money. Now Trek is no longer a super nerdy thing that a lot of people can't get into.

 

[screamingmetal]

Although, most of the people who saw this movie, and loved it were not nerds, but regular average joes who work all day and don't care about Warp Cores and all that. And they enjoyed it. And that's who will make them money. Now Trek is no longer a super nerdy thing that a lot of people can't get into.

The same thing can be said for plot holes in any movie. As long as it's not glaringly obvious, average folk just except it and move on. It's why most people don't take issue with STID or Prometheus.

 

[a-dev]

Although, most of the people who saw this movie, and loved it were not nerds, but regular average joes who work all day and don't care about Warp Cores and all that. And they enjoyed it. And that's who will make them money. Now Trek is no longer a super nerdy thing that a lot of people can't get into.

Since you previously weren't into Star Trek why does it matter to you that this is so? If it was so uncool before why desire to care about it at all?

 

[Gully Foyle]

This isn't cerebral Star Trek.

Precisely.

It's been dumbed down to a generic action flick for an audience like yourself.

Which is fine . . . McDonald's has served billions, right?

Let the billions eat their fast food . . . if they enjoy gorging on an ersatz product, then great!

It leaves more Kobe beef for those with a real appetite.



____

 

[CelticPredator]

Since you previously weren't into Star Trek why does it matter to you that this is so? If it was so uncool before why desire to care about it at all?

because this series has things I can care about. People. Relationships. Characters. Love. Hate. Lust. Frustration.

Not warp cores, and philosophy. Characters. And story. The first film is great. One of my favorites. Caught me off guard, and is still highly rewatchable. That's why I care. Because this is what I always wanted the series to be.

 

[CelticPredator]

Precisely.

It's been dumbed down to a generic action flick for an audience like yourself.

Which is fine . . . McDonald's has served billions, right?

Let the billions eat their fast food . . . if they enjoy gorging on an ersatz product, then great!

It leaves more Kobe beef for those with a real appetite.



____

Exactly. It's for everyone. Also, I hope you catch on fire.

 

[screamingmetal]

I've been watching TNG the past week or two. I'm on that season 5 episode where the all get addicted to a game. Ashley Judd is in it and damn she was hot at that age.

I remember revisiting those episodes later on and being surprised she was in TNG. Definitely out of Wil Wheaton's league.
Also imagine my surprise when revisiting Enterprise Terra Prime episodes this weekend and finding Peter Weller there without any alien make up. I guess he has a twin many years later called Admiral Marcus.
I'm close to finishing Enterprise season 4 (just 4). The entire season has most of Enterprise's best episodes. My favorite being Romulan interference arc. Jeffrey Combs is always awesome in Trek.

After this I'm going to start Voyager from start to finish. I'll wait on watching TNG again until I have the Blu Rays.

 

[a-dev]

because this series has things I can care about. People. Relationships. Characters. Love. Hate. Lust. Frustration.

That's why I care. Because this is what I always wanted the series to be.

Star Trek has always had these things At its best it also had intelligence and a respect of its own grander universe. It had some blips aswell of course.

 

[FQRizzo]

Why couldn't this movie be fun and smart...you know, like the first one?

 

[CelticPredator]

Star Trek has always had these things At its best it also had intelligence and a respect of its own grander universe. It had some blips aswell of course.

Well, 2 hours isn't long enough to do something like that. It's a summer blockbuster. It's only goal is to entertain you, and make you happy when you leave the theater.

I agree with the post above me. The first was far better, and smarter then this was. That's what movie Trek should be. This was pushing it. But it was still exciting despite that. Not a film I really want to see over and over, but it was what it was.