James Cameron says he's found "Christ's Tomb" ... um sure...

[PosterBoyKelly]

Look, enough arguing. Cameron will surely prove all with faith to be fools and he will laugh and dance on their morals by peeing on them and making them watch T2 over and over on USA. It's the end, and we're all to be punished, Cameron decreed it so.

 

[Khev]

If Cameron opened a Bible he might actually realize that he's fulfilling prophecy rather than refuting it:

Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other." Luke 17:22-24

Cameron and other men can announce whatever they like, I'll keep my eyes on the sky and recommend that others do the same.

 

[choopie]

How Christ came into this world and how he left it is of no matter to me. What is important to me is the fact that he existed and the teachings that he spread to his followers that I try very hard to incorporate into my life. People get so wrapped up in trying to establish physical proof that they forget about his truths -- the real reason as to why he walked this Earth in the first place.

Every time news like this comes out, I'm always intrigued. It is in our nature to question and to constantly seek answers. But our brains are finite and our knowlege is limited. How can we only accept man's truths and not open our eyes to the possibility of something much bigger than that?

 

[Agent0028]

I really like this thread, it is nice to see such civil discussion of religion and hear so many different points of view.

 

[KrisSolo]

'He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy. Now go away!' - the Gospel according to Monty Python, the only prophet I deem fit to follow :smugsatisfaction:

 

[screamingmetal]

I mean no insult to you Screaming .. just making an observance based on my own view of human nature. And so with that in mind,

As I pointed out, I am not what you call a "church going" Christian. I love the Lord and believe most of the tenets, including that Jesus was his son. However, I disdain religion. I won't go into too much detail. Just an observation in college that it wasn't right the poor church near my college gave hard earned money they could have desperately needed so the preacher and his wife could drive a Lexus. I do not remember the speaker, but someone once said, "God created faith, man created religion. I care not for the machinations of man." That's about how I feel.

But why is it that Atheist, Nihilist, etc. always works so hard to try to disprove faith, whether it be Christ, Muhammed, Buddha, etc.? If someone truly believes that nothing exists ... that there is nothing beyond this flesh existence, why waste those precious minutes of your finite existence on disproving others? People of faith want to believe, people without faith want to be right (that is meant as a generalization, not everyone seems that way ... but many do).

The other irony I find is that everyone who tries to disprove religion is basically putting their faith in the unknown. There is no way to prove or disprove the Big Bang. There is no way to verify every event in the Bible. The Veil of Time has seen to this. In order to disprove these things, people come up with theories. You know what theories are?

Merrriam-Webster defines a theory as "a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption."

Hmm... sounds an awful lot like "firm belief in something for which there is no proof." Oh, by the way, that's how Webster's defines faith.

Now, we can argue over semantics and the inclusion of this word or that. However, the two definitions share a lot in common.... just like people of faith and atheists. People of faith believe in something they cannot prove. Atheists believe in nothing they cannot prove ... yet have no evidence they cannot prove it.

Well, if I have to believe in "theory", I choose a "faith" based upon something , rather than nothing.

Douglas I didn't feel insulted just thought you should have more information.
I have to ask you, why is it that Christians or any other religious people feel so obligated to convert people not of their faith? I find that just as insulting as you would find someone who attempts to disprove your faith. I've had religious people try to get into arguments with me on their beliefs Vs. mine without me wanting to discuss the subject with them whatsoever. It's pointless to bicker since no one believes in the opinions of the other and won't change their opinion. I constantly get God damn Mormons knocking on my door obviously hoping to convert me. There is pressure from the religious world on Atheist and Agnostic minorities from all sides. Maybe thats why they attempt to disprove religious beliefs. It's also a part of the belief system, religious people always use bible quotes or religious explanations as to why any deity exists, so Atheists or Agnostics show that those principle or explanations are false. It's often what I have to tell people to explain why I don't believe in their religion.
I think I may have mis read your original post, I thought you said that science can't explain what happened before the Big Bang, just wanted to give you more information.
You only got one part of the definition of theory, as it applies to science, from Webster:

5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>

Scientific Theories are explainable by Mathematics, they show that some result should be a rule, but without direct observation of that result or some incomplete parts, it remains theory.

I don't see how anything in this Christ's Tomb is trying to disprove Faith or
introduced by Atheists or Agnostics. It's an theory based on debatable information being presented to the public. It's not being stated as fact.
Also you should be aware that this is in fact being produced and directed, possibly hosted by Simcha Jacobovici who's Jewish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simcha_Jacobovici
He does a show called the Naked Archaeologist that airs on the Science Channel, it's about Biblical archeology from the both the new and old testament.

 

[Darklord Dave]

The site about the show addresses the theological concerns:
________________


Resurrection: It is a matter of Christian faith that Jesus of Nazareth was resurrected from the dead three days after his crucifixion circa 30 C.E. This is a central tenet of Christian theology, repeated in all four Gospels. The Lost Tomb of Jesus does not challenge this belief. In the Gospel of Matthew (28:12) it states that a rumor was circulating in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. This story holds that Jesus' body was moved by his disciples from the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, where he was temporarily buried. Ostensibly, his remains were taken to a permanent family tomb. Though Matthew calls this rumor a lie circulated by the high priests, it appears in his Gospel as one of the stories surrounding Jesus’ disappearance from the initial tomb where he was buried. Even if Jesus' body was moved from one tomb to another, however, that does not mean that he could not have been resurrected from the second tomb. Belief in the resurrection is based not on which tomb he was buried in, but on alleged sightings of Jesus that occurred after his burial and documented in the Gospels.

Ascension: It is also a matter of Christian faith that after his resurrection, Jesus ascended to heaven. Some Christians believe that this was a spiritual ascension, i.e., his mortal remains were left behind. Other Christians believe that he ascended with his body to heaven. If Jesus’ mortal remains have been found, this would contradict the idea of a physical ascension but not the idea of a spiritual ascension. The latter is consistent with Christian theology.

 

[Captain Faramir]

I disagree. The ascension was a true, physical assension, not some spiritual phenomena. The most central tenent of Christianity is that of the Atonement and Resurrection. Throw those out, and Christianity means nothing. Christ is alive with his physical body restored, immortal, and perfected. This isn't his body, because he is alive. He lives is a literal, true statement.

 

[DouglasMcc]

Douglas I didn't feel insulted just thought you should have more information.
I have to ask you, why is it that Christians or any other religious people feel so obligated to convert people not of their faith? I find that just as insulting as you would find someone who attempts to disprove your faith.

Just as with everything in life, there are those who take it to the extreme. Some people of faith do spend their lives trying to convert others. Some go so far as to force it down people's throats. While I think that comes from a misplaced sense of altruism, i.e. "I know that you are going to be punished, I must save your soul", it can be just as bad as some Atheist perspectives. Now, I personally blame religion more for this perspective - remember I said I was a person of faith ... however, I care not for the trappings of religion. But I can see where that would irritate others. Remember, faith gives people reason to live. Religion gives people reason to kill (i.e. the Crusades, The Inquisition, Islamic suicide bombings, and the list goes on). Also, many Christians get caught up in spreading the message. Jesus didn't try to force anyone to accept his message. He delivered it to the people and left it up to them to accept or not. That's how I approach my faith. One of the things that irritates me about some atheist (and I am not saying you are like this .. just these people exist much like Religious fundamentalist on the opposite end of the spectrum) is they use this belief in non-existence to justify a selfish life. "Well, since I cease to exist when I die, I have to enjoy everything now. It's all about me." I believe faith makes you a better person ... it shows you that there are reasons to be good. You are part of a greater good and are working towards something. Call it a reward if you like. And once again, that where faith and religion differ. Religion makes you a better person through fear. "You will burn in Hell if you do not live better." Faith teaches you their are consequences to your actions and that we must work together to reach happiness. I know that may not make sense to many. I have my beliefs ... I just sometimes am not articulate enough to explain them.

You only got one part of the definition of theory, as it applies to science, from Webster: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>
Scientific Theories are explainable by Mathematics, they show that some result should be a rule, but without direct observation of that result or some incomplete parts, it remains theory.

I do not want to get into an argument over this, but in my mind its the same thing. Can you prove to me that the Big Bang happened? Can you show me physical evidence that it happened? Can you recreate so that I can see it? No. Remember, a scientific theory only remains a theory until it can be proven with concrete, visual data. Then it becomes a scientific fact. The reason its called the wave theory of light is that we do not have equipment sensitive enough to prove it exists. We are basically trusting the theory based on our faith in the concept. How is that so much different that trusting in the belief of a God? I cannot visual "see" God, but I can see his effects on the world and, to a lesser degree, on men's hearts and souls. Therefore, I believe. I do not need visual proof that God exists because he is plausible to me, much like you do not need to see visual proof that the wave theory of light exists.
So, most of the ideas and theories that Atheist try to use to disprove faith must be ... well, taken on faith. I find it hard to believe that you can discount the unproven with more unproven. As for your new definition, it's still based on believing something that cannot be proven. What makes a Scientific or Mathematical theory "plausible"? It's a person's faith in the system that hypothesis is based on. Well, I have seen things in my life that make the belief in an unseen deity "plausible."

And since the definition itself used the word phenomena, lets focus on it for a moment. Phenomena is most often used to explain the unexplainable in science. Something that seems to go against our pre-conceived notions about science. Well, to me, it seems that is the same as faith. You accept that the Big Bang phenomena happened billions of years ago, yet have no proof. I believe God caused the creation of the universe (which I am comfortable calling the Big Bang) billions of years ago ... and I accept that it cannot be proven. I don't need proof. I am willing to believe it based on faith alone.

To summarize, I agree whole-heartily that some people take religion too far ... and I would not fault you for being offended by that. Religion has done more harm to Faith that anything else in the history of man. In fact, I would go so far as to hypothesis that atheism is a direct response to the trappings of religion. I have a friend who lost his Faith because of bad experiences in church as a child. However, if you can look past the man-made trappings of religion to its purest form - i.e. Faith, you will see the "logic" behind my beliefs. However, I am not going to force it down your throats. I will put my ideas and beliefs out there and you may take from them what you like.

 

[tomandshell]

Well, this has been a fantastic and interesting thread to discover and read through. Anything I could add has pretty much already been said, so I'll just say that I really appreciate everybody's comments--it is rare to be able to have a discussion like this that doesn't degenerate into a shameless shouting and shoving match. It gives me hope for civil discourse, freedom of speech, courtesy and respect for the beliefs of others, etc. Quite a nice thing to see.

I will say that regardless of the outcome, this discovery will not make me stop loving my neighbor.


(And if we do get a picture of the skeleton/mummy, I will not be offended if somebody immediately posts an observation that Jesus' arms are too long.)

 

[figuremaster_les]

Just in direct response to the title of this thread, and not to all the well thought out, eloquent and very interesting responses,
I humbly say.....





And if a pig had wings.....

Yeah Jim! Go make movies man! You been under the Atlantic too long!

Good Grief! DNA. OK.... I cannot stop LMFAO at this one....

JIm. You were so great! Damn man.

Just....

Damn.

Make a movie dude.

 

[Spartan Rex]

I still think Cameron is a great filmmaker, I have high hopes for AVATAR his next movie.

 

[Captain Faramir]

I think it's a shame when people presume to force what they believe on another. A shame and shameful. Is not faith based on the principle that man can choose for himself? I believe TRUE religion is essential--but it shouldn't be a rest home for the spiritually perfect, rather a hospital for the spiritually weak, as Neil A. Maxwell said. Religion needs to be an organized system of service, not a clandestine order of income. I will have no part in any "religion" in which clergy get money for service, or where men lead rather than God. But a true religion, one where God leads and the members live to love and lift another--that is what I cling to. And even then, while I will share what I know with all of my heart, who am I to condemn somebody to hell? That is not faith--it is cruelty. Only God can pass that kind of judgment. I know what I know, and while I feel obliged to share it, I feel more obliged to treat others with respect and love, regardless of how I feel about their opinions. That is what religion ought to be about.

 

[tomandshell]

I still think Cameron is a great filmmaker, I have high hopes for AVATAR his next movie.

I am also looking forward to Avatar. Cameron doesn't have to share my personal beliefs and worldview in order for me to enjoy his films. He is without a doubt a fine filmmaker. I believe the same is true of Mel Gibson--I love the films he has directed, while I do not share any apparently anti-semitic views that he may be struggling with.

 

[Batty]

 

[DannieDarKo]

 

[Bannister]

 

[Dusty]

I just want to say that, Douglas, you are very eloquent, and you are one of the faithful that definitely DOES NOT give a bad name to faith And I echo tomandshell - it's very uplifting to see that this conversation has not degenerated into name-calling and insults, as discussions about faith (and politics) sometimes do. Just goes to show that Freaks are pretty tolerant of others.... unless it's a discussion about flipping of course

I will say that regardless of the outcome, this discovery will not make me stop loving my neighbor.

Here, here! I'll drink to that

(And if we do get a picture of the skeleton/mummy, I will not be offended if somebody immediately posts an observation that Jesus' arms are too long.)

Too funny.

 

[thamesvalidude]

Like Dusty I am of good Roman Catholic stock, but ceased to believe in all things supernatural (Santa, the tooth fairy, God) at a precociously early age.
That is my prerogative, my choice, my belief, my right in a modern democracy.
Nothing that I have experienced over the years has changed my viewpoints, the only move has been a hardening (along with my arteries) of my position from agnostic to atheist. However, if somone provided proof of the existence of a deity then i would be the first to hold my hands up and say: "ok, I was WRONG".
My point here is that there are many religions, many Faiths. From Shinto, Buddism, Hinduism to the three great Abrahamic faiths of Judaeism, Christianity and Islam. Many people, many points of view and not one of us has the right to say someone elses faith is bulls**t or whatever because not one of us can prove anything, no matter what is found in tombs or is said in whichever ancient texts. People will believe in what they want to believe...hell, we've even got Mormons and Scientologists in these threads and good luck to them.
James Cameron just may have found the tomb of Jesus (who according to my research did exist), but that shouldn't invalidate anyone's belief system which should be based on what the dude said, not what really physically happened to him. Even if it is jesus and he lived to be 90 with grandkids etc it ain't going to shake anyone in Israel, India or China or Japan or in my house.
Let's all celebrate our differences and how that makes us the fab people we are and lets get back to the important stuff: Sideshow collectibles.

So Dusty....when are we getting a Wesley?

 

[pixletwin]

Very interesting. One point in particular I would like to comment on is that Jesus could have been in shock or in a coma after he was taken down from the cross.

Little lesson folks.

After Christ died and the Roman soldiers were prepping the crucified bodies to be removed from the crosses (since Jewish law, observed by the Romans, was to remove bodies from the cross so as not to violate jewish laws on the sabbath) they broke the legs of the two at Christ's sides to make sure they were dead.

To make sure Christ was dead before removing his body, they pierced his side with a spear. It is recorded that when they did this, a strong flow of blood and water issued out of the spear wound. Modern medicine has indicated that this means while Christ was on the cross he suffered a caridiac rupture (basically the heart explodes) due to the great stress a body endures during the process of crucifixion. A cardiac rupture terminates life. Christ was dead.

If we assume the term "death" can be defined as a seperation of body and spirit we can also assume that resurrection means a reuniting of both body and spirit.

Christ spirit was reunited with a perfected body, retaining the wounds he suffered as a token for those who doubt. His resurrection was a literal occurance with repercussions for all humanity, whether you believe in Christ or not. "As in Adam all men die, so in Christ shall all men live." (1 Corinthians 15: 22)

Believe what you want. I respect your beliefs and hope we can all extend the same courtesy to everyone else on the board... except CollectorFreak. (j/k)