James Cameron's AVATAR discussion thread

[Something Sexy]

At that point you would surely be splitting pubic hairs. The point is, all of those films are more original and not nearly as derivative as many others.

Are you going to sit there and tell me that Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind is not a more original work than Avatar? Come now.

I never said that. I also have been saying in this thread the whole time I completely agree this movie is a cliche and is not very original. I am just saying most things are derived or the director/writer got their influences from something else. There isn't anything wrong with that.

 

[IrishJedi]

I never said that. I also have been saying in this thread the whole time I completely agree this movie is a cliche and is not very original. I am just saying most things are derived or the director/writer got their influences from something else. There isn't anything wrong with that.

That's true and I agree. But I don't understand the point of the argument that "pretty much every film takes inspiration from something" in defense of AVATAR. That's like saying that the guy who got a speeding ticket is just as much a criminal as the guy who got a DUI and drove head on into a family of 4. They're both traffic violations, right? But one is more egregious than the other, clearly. DUI Guy can't point to Speeding Guy and claim their violation is the same. Again... the point at issue is relativity.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

How is predator original? How is it any different than Alien? Jungle vs Spaceship?
Or any movie with big scary creature stalking and hunting the good guy humans?

I'm trying to make the point, that there is no point in arguing about Avatar's story or originality at this point.
The ORIGINAL thing about Avatar - the ultra advanced CGI and 3D

There are completely original movies out there ... Fight Club comes to mind.

But, that's really not the point. Nobody demands absolute originality from movies, and the fact that Avatar's story was not completely original is not really the problem. I can count on two hands the number of movies that are COMPLETELY original.

The problem is not the absence of full originality ... it is the absence of ANY originality in the story. There is a definite distinction between "not completely original" and "completely cliche'd". I'm fine with stories that fall in the middle ground between the two ... but Avatar really didn't. It was a dolled-up story from a high school screenwriting class ... and I'm told that it was original because the indians were blue aliens rather than Cherokee, and the effects were groundbreaking.

But, fundamentally, it was the exact story I had seen a dozen times -- and there was not a single plot twist, surprise moment, inventive character, or anything that set it apart from any of the other incarnations ... except the indians were blue and in 3D. Ultimately, the pretty visuals weren't enough to hold my interest in a story where I could predict scenes 30-minutes in advance.

SnakeDoc

 

[Something Sexy]

That's true and I agree. But I don't understand the point of the argument that "pretty much every film takes inspiration from something" in defense of AVATAR. That's like saying that the guy who got a speeding ticket is just as much a criminal as the guy who got a DUI and drove head on to a family of 4. They're both traffic violations, right? Again... the point at issue is relativity. One is more egregious than the other.

I agree, I wasn't really trying to use that to defend Avatar (maybe a little) but just saying in general.

 

[Something Sexy]

There are completely original movies out there ... Fight Club comes to mind.

But, that's really not the point. Nobody demands absolute originality from movies, and the fact that Avatar's story was not completely original is not really the problem. I can count on two hands the number of movies that are COMPLETELY original.

The problem is not the absence of full originality ... it is the absence of ANY originality in the story. There is a definite distinction between "not completely original" and "completely cliche'd". I'm fine with stories that fall in the middle ground between the two ... but Avatar really didn't. It was a dolled-up story from a high school screenwriting class ... and I'm told that it was original because the indians were blue aliens rather than Cherokee, and the effects were groundbreaking.

But, fundamentally, it was the exact story I had seen a dozen times -- and there was not a single plot twist, surprise moment, inventive character, or anything that set it apart from any of the other incarnations ... except the indians were blue and in 3D. Ultimately, the pretty visuals weren't enough to hold my interest in a story where I could predict scenes 30-minutes in advance.

SnakeDoc

I also don't think it was Cameron's intention to be original. We all know the guy was basically just concentrating on the visuals and most likely didn't care or try to hard on the story. He just want to attempt to revolutionize the movie industry again. Hopefully all of that is out of the way now and his next movie he can work on the story.

 

[SnakeDoctor]

I also don't think it was Cameron's intention to be original. We all know the guy was basically just concentrating on the visuals and most likely didn't care or try to hard on the story. He just want to attempt to revolutionize the movie industry again. Hopefully all of that is out of the way now and his next movie he can work on the story.

I'm quite sure he wasn't focused on the story ... I'm arguing that in not focusing on the story, he delivered a lousy movie. Movies are ultimately elaborate storytelling. Without a good story, you've got a bad movie ... no matter how pretty it looks.

SnakeDoc

 

[Something Sexy]

I'm quite sure he wasn't focused on the story ... I'm arguing that in not focusing on the story, he delivered a lousy movie. Movies are ultimately elaborate storytelling. Without a good story, you've got a bad movie ... no matter how pretty it looks.

SnakeDoc

Well, I wouldn't say bad in my opinion. I can over look somethings in some cases and I did for this movie because it was very entertaining and overall a good movie.

 

[IrishJedi]

I'm quite sure he wasn't focused on the story ... I'm arguing that in not focusing on the story, he delivered a lousy movie. Movies are ultimately elaborate storytelling. Without a good story, you've got a bad movie ... no matter how pretty it looks.

That's not necessarily always true. There are exceptions. Abstract films come to mind. But even within the studio system there have been great films that aren't focused on story. Instead, they focus on characters and/or theme. And that's just as good as a singular story sometimes. Look at INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS... it doesn't have a sole, focused plot. But it's a bunch of very well-developed, engaging characters involved in intertwining sub-plots that are secondary to the characters. And it's great.

 

[Something Sexy]

That's not necessarily always true. There are exceptions. Abstract films come to mind. But even within the studio system there have been great films that aren't focused on story. Instead, they focus on characters and/or theme. And that's just as good as a singular story sometimes.

Definitely, there are some things where I fall in love with the characters and not the story and there are some things where I fall in love with the story but really don't care for the characters. One thing that comes into mind where I really don't care for or like most of the characters but I love the overall story or theme is the show LOST.

 

[Reinhardt]

I just spoke to a co-worker of mine who just watched Avatar. She watched in on her home computer, watching a downloaded version of someone with a crappy video-camera recording the movie in Russia. So not only was the image and audio quality crap, all the Navi language was subtitled in a language she didn't understand.

And then you wonder why they don't like the movie, or thought visually it was just OK.

 

[Something Sexy]

I just spoke to a co-worker of mine who just watched Avatar. She watched in on her home computer, watching a downloaded version of someone with a crappy video-camera recording the movie in Russia. So not only was the image and audio quality crap, all the Navi language was subtitled in a language she didn't understand.

And then you wonder why they don't like the movie, or thought visually it was just OK.

Ha well that is pretty lame. Definitely a movie you at least need to see in theaters once.

 

[IrishJedi]

I just spoke to a co-worker of mine who just watched Avatar. She watched in on her home computer, watching a downloaded version of someone with a crappy video-camera recording the movie in Russia. So not only was the image and audio quality crap, all the Navi language was subtitled in a language she didn't understand.

And then you wonder why they don't like the movie, or thought visually it was just OK.

Watching it like that defeats the entire purpose. The movie was designed to be experienced in 3D on a large screen (preferably IMAX).

This is one of the reasons why I think it will lose a lot of critical steam when it hits DVD/Blu-ray.

 

[Something Sexy]

Watching it like that defeats the entire purpose. The movie was designed to be experienced in 3D on a large screen (preferably IMAX).

This is one of the reasons why I think it will lose a lot of critical steam when it hits DVD/Blu-ray.

Yea, it won't be the same on DVD/Blu-ray but I bet it still sells a lot because of the amount of fanboys out there will buy it regardless. I am definitely going to pick it up but I am not going to expect it to be the experience it was in the theaters. Maybe I should go do it in 2D and see what that is like.

 

[IrishJedi]

Oh, the DVD/Blu-ray will definitely sell like hotcakes, perhaps even set records there as well. I'm just saying that the experience of watching the movie will be impacted greatly for many, because the main draw and appeal is the whole 3D/IMAX thing.

 

[Something Sexy]

Oh, the DVD/Blu-ray will definitely sell like hotcakes, perhaps even set records there as well. I'm just saying that the experience of watching the movie will be impacted greatly for many, because the main draw and appeal is the whole 3D/IMAX thing.

Definitely or maybe everyone will go out and blow money on 3D TVs and players. I won't pretend to know much on that because I haven't done my research yet.

 

[lightwave000]

Here's the Top 20 movies of all time ... by number of tickets sold:

1 "Gone With the Wind" (1939) 202,044,600
2 "Star Wars" (1977) 178,119,600
3 "The Sound of Music" (1965) 142,415,400
4 "E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial" (1982) 141,854,300
5 "The Ten Commandments" (1956) 131,000,000
6 "Titanic" (1997) 128,345,900
7 "Jaws" (1975) 128,078,800
8 "Doctor Zhivago" (1965) 124,135,500
9 "The Exorcist" (1973) 110,568,700
10 "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" (1937) 109,000,000
11 "101 Dalmatians" (1961) 99,917,300
12 "The Empire Strikes Back" (1980) 98,180,600
13 "Ben-Hur" (1959) 98,000,000
14 "Return of the Jedi" (1983) 94,059,400
15 "The Sting" (1973) 89,142,900
16 "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (1981) 88,141,900
17 "Jurassic Park" (1993) 86,205,800
18 "The Graduate" (1967) 85,571,400
19 "Star Wars: Episode I" (1999) 84,825,800
20 "Fantasia" (1941) 83,043,500

"Avatar," despite topping the worldwide gross list, by and by, is only No. 26 on the ticket sales list with 76,421,000 sold ... at least, so far...

 

[DinoLast]

Fight Club
A modern day Doctor Jekyll and Mr.Hyde meets A Clockwork Orange

 

[DinoLast]

I wonder if Star Wars (A New Hope) comes out in 3D, it could beat Gone with the wind in ticket sales?

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

I wonder if Star Wars (A New Hope) comes out in 3D, it could beat Gone with the wind in ticket sales?

it's possible

 

[Khev]

There are tons of terrific, original films. Just off the top of my head...

And, to add even a Cameron sci-fi film on the list... The Abyss.

Not really. The Abyss is basically Close Encounters under water, but with the crew from ALIEN instead of Richard Dreyfuss. Cameron's films have always been about the telling of the story (SPOILER ALERT! The boat is gonna sink! ), not coming out of left field with some backwards told psychedelic head trip.

To expect differently, or even fault any of his films accordingly, is to simply misunderstand them, IMO.