LIM Toys - The Least of Use - Guitar Player and Dinosaur Enthusiast

[MeatHookGekko]

I feel like the moral/ theme of the story went over your head. Killing Abby would accomplish nothing. Revenge begets nothing but more anger and sorrow.

I recognize this is a video game. And everyone has a different view of the situation. And everyone has a right to their own opinion. And when Troy Baker was forced into interviews, he said the technically correct thing - In that this was Neil Druckmann's story and he was going to tell his story. I don't dispute any of that.

But only speaking for myself, if I was in Ellie's shoes, if I was abandoned and alone and I had someone raise me and care for me and protect me like Joel, and someone beat him to death with a golf club in front of me. Then I'd put Abby, or anyone else, on their knees, and cut their throat. And before I did it, I'd execute all her family, her friends, her allies, her associates, anyone who meant anything to her first. Then I'd go make a sandwich. And that night, I'd sleep peacefully. Wouldn't bother me one bit. Wouldn't shake my emotions one inch. Wouldn't hesitate.

If you leave Abby or anyone like her alive, she poses a full time non stop threat to everyone else besides Joel. What about the next father or mother or parent that gets slaughtered senselessly by her hands? People will do what is in line with their character. Inevitable. They might deviate for a short while, but they will always return back to that same toxic pathology.

I see it different. Love is sacrifice. Joel sacrificed parts of himself to keep Ellie safe. And in that position, I'd sacrifice parts of myself to keep other safe from types like Abby and her ilk. I'd give that up because there are also people Joel cared about and wanted to keep safe besides Ellie, and as he stood up and protected me, I now am obligated to honor that by protecting them.

Refusing to kill Abby is a "half measure" Some of you here might make that decision. And that's your decision to make. I respect your right to it. But if we lived in an end of the world kind of dystopia, I'd want you out of my town, my village, my bunker, my stronghold, my living space. I'll respect your rights as you and your rights go marching off outside of town and never to return. I'm not looking over my shoulder. I'm not living around those who want to live a life where they have to look over their shoulders.

One time I was sitting in my local library. And there was a tutor who was helping a kid. And afterwards, the parents came up and sat down they had a little meeting on how the kid was doing in school. And this child was elementary school age. And you could see the parents were immigrants and didn't have a ton of money. The kid needed more tutoring, and the dad simply said, we'll find the money, we'll figure it out. And his hands were rough. The kind of rough from hard labor. That's love right there. Someone breaking their back, sacrificing, so someone they love can be safer, can have a better life, can have better opportunity.

I see "proof of life" for love as sacrifice. In this case, it's Abby being put on the altar. She can beg, she can cry, she can negotiate, she can gaslight me, she can try any type of manipulation she wants, but in the end, I'm putting her on her knees, and when she's seen all her friends, allies and family laying in a heap in front of her, I'm cutting her throat.

Sometimes there is no good answer. People want to believe deep in their hearts that life is like a movie. That you get this one awesome moral mythical choice and this ugly bad dark choice. That's not how it works. Sometimes all you get is a patently horrible disgusting choice versus an even worse repugnant vile option. I don't see how Joel would ever want Ellie to live a life looking over her shoulder. So she should honor that, and not choose that path.

Someone will say that revenge will never end that way. My answer to people who say that is they just simply haven't killed enough people yet.

Someone will say doing that will change you. That carrying that mentality will change me. No, I don't need to travel a long road to that place. I'm already there. It's your choice if you want to catch up or not.

Merry Xmas

 

[Space Jockey]

Well that took a dark turn, lol!

 

[MeatHookGekko]

To each their own. I love part 2. It may have some pacing and structure issues but the ambitious story is what I can really appreciate. They always knew during development they wouldn’t be able to satisfy everyone with the story. But that didn’t stop them from telling it.

The story takes risks and is not your typical sequel. Joel had his death coming. In the first game it’s mentioned many times that he has tons of enemies from when he was doing shady business for shady people. Joel’s past follows him everywhere.!

For me the last of us isn’t necessarily about Joel and Ellie. Or Abby for that matter. As much as I love the characters a last of us story could be about any group of survivors and their struggles.

They’ll have no problem making a part 3 about new characters.

Well I recognize some people loved and enjoyed TLOU2. And I respect their right to like what they like and love what they love and enjoy what they enjoy.

Here's what I will say

1) There is narrative value in Joel dying at some point, so that Ellie can have some character growth ( No different from Don Vito and Sonny dying so Michael Corleone could be forced into his full potential in The Godfather) , but the fair question is raised - Did he have to die exactly like that?

2) Some fans of TLOU felt they were bait and switched. That they were implied another game about Joel and Ellie and instead they had to play half the game as the psychopath who murdered Joel and the storyline tried to make her sympathetic. That's some ugly bait and switch in my book but others might feel differently.

3) Druckmann killed this franchise. Just killed it. Maybe that was his plan. Maybe this narrative is honoring where he saw the story and character going. However game companies have investors like everyone else, and did he do his fiduciary duty as an employee of a company? That's an entirely separate matter. Same thing with Olivia Wilde and her film, Don't Worry Darling. She got into some really bad PR , and then people questioned whether they should see the film or not, do you think that made investors happy?

Personally, taking my own distaste out of the matter, I do still question some of the writing choices in TLOU2. It's unfortunate that Druckmann simply wrote off all critics as "haters" because it's not like the game is flawless.

Again, if Druckmann wanted to kill Joel, then he did. But did other ways to do it exist to support the longevity of the franchise and not enrage the fan base so much?

I also think Druckmann has to look at the larger macro context in place around the entire entertainment industry. There is this growing trend to bait and switch and then start gaslighting your fan base. Kevin Smith did it with his He Man reboot. So Druckmann was asking for it IMHO. Fans were already on edge from other artistic works and licenses. I also recognize artistic types, some of them, tend to get off on being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

"Not satisfy" is long road from, IMHO, going out of their way to incite the fanbase for no good reason at all.

I didn't like it, but to each their own.

If there's a Part 3, I'm not touching it. My friend, you can have my copy. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of folks who feel the same.

Merry Xmas.

 

[Space Jockey]

If there's a Part 3, I'm not touching it. My friend, you can have my copy. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of folks who feel the same.

Merry Xmas.

Okay. Bye and Merry Xmas!

 

[MachoGeek80]

I feel like the moral/ theme of the story went over your head. Killing Abby would accomplish nothing. Revenge begets nothing but more anger and sorrow.

Besides that, Abby also had reasons to do what she did. Her dad got killed. She had her revenge, and then spared Ellie. I had a hard time liking Ellie as the game progressed.

 

[spaceghost2000]

Besides that, Abby also had reasons to do what she did. Her dad got killed. She had her revenge, and then spared Ellie. I had a hard time liking Ellie as the game progressed.

Same, Ellie did monstrous things on her path to find Abby, it made it easier to empathise with Abby towards the end of the story (quite a feat when that character killed Joel). At a certain point I just wanted her to move on and stay at the farm house with her family, but she couldn’t let it go.

 

[Scentless Apprentice]

I recognize this is a video game. And everyone has a different view of the situation. And everyone has a right to their own opinion. And when Troy Baker was forced into interviews, he said the technically correct thing - In that this was Neil Druckmann's story and he was going to tell his story. I don't dispute any of that.

But only speaking for myself, if I was in Ellie's shoes, if I was abandoned and alone and I had someone raise me and care for me and protect me like Joel, and someone beat him to death with a golf club in front of me. Then I'd put Abby, or anyone else, on their knees, and cut their throat. And before I did it, I'd execute all her family, her friends, her allies, her associates, anyone who meant anything to her first. Then I'd go make a sandwich. And that night, I'd sleep peacefully. Wouldn't bother me one bit. Wouldn't shake my emotions one inch. Wouldn't hesitate.

If you leave Abby or anyone like her alive, she poses a full time non stop threat to everyone else besides Joel. What about the next father or mother or parent that gets slaughtered senselessly by her hands? People will do what is in line with their character. Inevitable. They might deviate for a short while, but they will always return back to that same toxic pathology.

I see it different. Love is sacrifice. Joel sacrificed parts of himself to keep Ellie safe. And in that position, I'd sacrifice parts of myself to keep other safe from types like Abby and her ilk. I'd give that up because there are also people Joel cared about and wanted to keep safe besides Ellie, and as he stood up and protected me, I now am obligated to honor that by protecting them.

Refusing to kill Abby is a "half measure" Some of you here might make that decision. And that's your decision to make. I respect your right to it. But if we lived in an end of the world kind of dystopia, I'd want you out of my town, my village, my bunker, my stronghold, my living space. I'll respect your rights as you and your rights go marching off outside of town and never to return. I'm not looking over my shoulder. I'm not living around those who want to live a life where they have to look over their shoulders.

One time I was sitting in my local library. And there was a tutor who was helping a kid. And afterwards, the parents came up and sat down they had a little meeting on how the kid was doing in school. And this child was elementary school age. And you could see the parents were immigrants and didn't have a ton of money. The kid needed more tutoring, and the dad simply said, we'll find the money, we'll figure it out. And his hands were rough. The kind of rough from hard labor. That's love right there. Someone breaking their back, sacrificing, so someone they love can be safer, can have a better life, can have better opportunity.

I see "proof of life" for love as sacrifice. In this case, it's Abby being put on the altar. She can beg, she can cry, she can negotiate, she can gaslight me, she can try any type of manipulation she wants, but in the end, I'm putting her on her knees, and when she's seen all her friends, allies and family laying in a heap in front of her, I'm cutting her throat.

Sometimes there is no good answer. People want to believe deep in their hearts that life is like a movie. That you get this one awesome moral mythical choice and this ugly bad dark choice. That's not how it works. Sometimes all you get is a patently horrible disgusting choice versus an even worse repugnant vile option. I don't see how Joel would ever want Ellie to live a life looking over her shoulder. So she should honor that, and not choose that path.

Someone will say that revenge will never end that way. My answer to people who say that is they just simply haven't killed enough people yet.

Someone will say doing that will change you. That carrying that mentality will change me. No, I don't need to travel a long road to that place. I'm already there. It's your choice if you want to catch up or not.

Merry Xmas

So you agree then that Ellie deserves to be brutally murdered, yes?

 

[RandomHero]

Same, Ellie did monstrous things on her path to find Abby, it made it easier to empathise with Abby towards the end of the story (quite a feat when that character killed Joel). At a certain point I just wanted her to move on and stay at the farm house with her family, but she couldn’t let it go.

That’s the entire point of the game’s story. The cycle of violence - and what does it take to finally break it? In Ellie’s case, it was remembering the humanity that Joel wanted for her, and once you remove the emotion from the scene, it’s pretty powerful when she chooses to spare Abby.

 

[R_R_X]

 

[niekgrijz]

I love discussing this game because everyone has a different view on it.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

So you agree then that Ellie deserves to be brutally murdered, yes?

The 2nd video shows Ellie with 376 kills in TLOU2. Some have estimated she kills over 200+ humans in the sequel.

This doesn't include the people she kills in the first game.

One of the common arguments I hear is Ellie spared Abby because doing so would fully change her over into something and someone that Joel didn't want her to be.

At some point, what's one more?

Again, the actions that people take will show their character. Ellie is not in danger of one day being "that person" She is that person. She and Joel also have a responsibility to their community. It's not like they were living in a tree house alone. Can anyone be sure that Abby won't come back again? Look at the mistake Abby makes ( bad writing by Druckmann) in "sparing" Ellie to start. How did that turn out?

I don't see how "deserve" has anything to do with it ( My opinion, no one is required to agree or to share it) In my book, "deserve" is a function of seeing the issue as a matter of fairness. I see it personally as a matter of principle. You go after my family, under any context, and in this context, Joel is my surrogate father, then you go down. Anyone who poses a threat to me and my community at large will go down too.

Again, I recognize this is a video game. And I recognize Druckmann wanted to pose a complex moral dilemma. But there are major elements to TLOTU2 where I assess ( again, my viewpoint, no one has to agree) that he failed at it. He could have gotten to the same place and the same point, and yes even killed Joel, and done it more effectively.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

Okay. Bye and Merry Xmas!

How did it work out for Ned Stark?

Kept his "honor" Didn't want to send assassins to kill Dany. Gave Cersei a "warning" to leave when he found out about the true lineage of her children. Refused to listen to the counsel of those few actually trying to help him.

And how did it end?

His wife got her throat cut, only after watching her son murdered and assumed her two daughters were hostages and likely being raped.

His oldest son, ill prepared to lead, was forced into war, and was murdered, along with his unborn child

His oldest daughter was abused and tortured by Joffrey, then she was raped by Ramsey Bolton

His youngest daughter became an assassin and a mass murderer to survive.

His next oldest son had to run for his life endlessly, then became a human sock puppet for some magical mystical entity.

His youngest young fled and was taken prisoner. Finally shot down with arrows.

His nephew, the "bastard", killed a woman he loved and became an exile.

Dany ended up burning King's Landing until it was a burning husk and a graveyard mostly filled with civilians.


"Game of Thrones" The Door (TV Episode 2016) - IMDb

Sansa Stark : [about being raped by Ramsay] I can still feel it. I don't mean in my tender heart what he did still pains me so. I can still feel what he did, in my body.


So the question becomes, if Ned Stark could see the total carnage, the price to keep "his honor", would he still do the same thing?

Ellie sparing Abby might look like "honor" to some of you here. And that's your right. But what did Cersei say again? You win or you die. And there is no middle ground.

 

[spaceghost2000]

Reach

 

[Space Jockey]

 

[R_R_X]

I can agree with both arguments, I don't like the execution of the second game but I dig the concept, I love some parts of it and hate others, I wouldn't say Ellie spared Abby in order to keep her humanity which imo was pretty much gone at that point, I think she lets Abby go because she sees her and Joel in Abby and Lev and realizes by killing Abby she would just be passing on her grief to Lev, it's also her forgiving Joel in the only way she could after being robbed of that and mostly just forgiving herself and accepting that Joel is gone and continuing her murder spree won't make her feel better or bring him back, she isn't really chasing revenge for him but for herself in order to try and make herself feel better for treating him like garbage for those final 2 years of his life.

But yeah I can see and understand both sides of the argument I'm just kind of tired of it all tbh at this point the game has been discussed to death and no argument will change whatever opinion people have on the game, I say we live and let live and just focus on the figures and Part 1 which is what they are based on, man I love Part 1, highly recommend it if for TLOU fans and those that haven't played the first game.

 

[MeatHookGekko]

Well back to the product and the toys

What I'd like to see LimToys do in general is offer a specific 3D file for anyone who purchases one of their figures. That's where I see the trend of the hobby going. Certainly not today and instantly, but I can see, at some point, companies selling or sending 3D printer files and people punching out elements on their own for 1/6th.

The item doesn't have to be big or complicated, just something fun. It would keep fans invested and keep visiting the Lim Toys site. Also it's an easy way to get potential customers to look at new product that's upcoming. Each LimToys figure would have it's own unique 3D item/file. Something that wasn't feasible or practical to make in the set from a pure production/cost standpoint, but would be interesting for a hard core hobbyist. Dipping the toes in the water, so to say. How that works or doesn't work with the licensing issues, I don't know....

Also I'd like to see the figure box itself be able to be broken down into cut, fold, paste, glue type "printables" Some people want to keep their figure box, and that's OK. They like the art, they want to keep it MIMB, I understand that, but for those who don't, just print other things on the box that can be cut down and cut off, and have it like a "printable sheet".

https://toyanxiety.com/pnmc-pla-navy-marine-corps-paper-models/

Here's an example from Toy Anxiety, from a KAD Hobby set.


https://toyanxiety.com/navy-seals-special-forces-target-range-set-kit-see-note/

Another from Toy Anxiety, from Mini Times, which is a "target" set.

Just some thoughts....

 

[MeatHookGekko]

Another thought I had is people will buy a boxed set if there are enough interesting loose parts in it, even if they might not like the IP/theme itself.

I'd like to see a "deluxe set" ( would allow Lim Toys to reuse their existing molds, with some slight changes, maybe some different/additional clothes and different facial expressions) with some of the multiplayer weapons.


Semi-auto rifle

Basically a Ruger Mini-14


Variable rifle

A Molot VEPR


Tactical shotgun

FN Tactical Police


Frontier rifle

Marlin lever action rifle, modernized


Ellie's pistol

Beretta 70 pistol


Flamethrower

Trusty scratch built flamethrower

Thoughts.....

 

[RandomHero]

I say we live and let live and just focus on the figures and Part 1

Good idea - I’m getting quite tired of this pissing match too. I think we can all agree that Part 2 is nothing short of controversial but is still an incredible achievement in game making.

Anything you can tell us on the figure development to try and steer this back in that direction?

 

[Omnishredder]

I agree whole heartily.

Want to focus on these potential figures regardless of how we feel about the way stuff went down. At the end of the day, we want something (that when it's on display or not) we go 'that looks f****** cool, I want that!'

It's up to us as consumers to show with our wallets if it appeals to us. I know I will be

Long live our crazy 1/6 scale not so barbie collecting habit

 

[R_R_X]

Good idea - I’m getting quite tired of this pissing match too. I think we can all agree that Part 2 is nothing short of controversial but is still an incredible achievement in game making.

Anything you can tell us on the figure development to try and steer this back in that direction?

We're still doing the clothes, we got back our most recent test clothes yesterday and they look really good, still not 100% there but only a few small fixes to do now, stuff like making Joel's collar smaller and changing some minor details.

All the accessories are done but need to be printed and painted, their sculpts will be finished next year, we won't be announcing them so soon in the hopes they sell better after the holidays period, I would say a March announcement to coincide with the ending of the show and PC release is likely.