LOST discussion - thar be spoilers ahead!

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Darth Waller said:
I can't wait to watch it again. Having it spread out over 6 years is difficult for a show like this.
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well at least the dvds/blu rays will be commercial free so i think you could actually watch all six seasons in about a week...................:monkey3
 
This might be bull____, but this is apparently a writer from Bad Robot going on about the show. It's a good read regardless of whether it's authentic or not.

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
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Well, there's a couple major problems with the text. First, there's no indication at any time during the six years that Jacob is bringing the candidates to the island to kill Smokey. Keep him on the island, yes. Protect the light, yes. Replace Jacob, yes. Kill Smokey? No. So if that was the point of Jacob's game, then the writer's hid it a tad too well.

The other problem is with the explaination of Dharma. The idea that Jacob brought Dharma there, a group that was going to exploit the power of the island, not protect it, seems a bit odd. On top of that, there's no indication that Smokey corrupted them before Ben was turned. They had the fence blocking him from the group, and they had the drug which I think kept their minds from being read and manipulated by Smokey (my opinion). Then Ben, who's supposedly under Smokey's control at this point, wipes them out? Why would Smokey want that if he was the one that brought them there in the first place? If anyone would have wanted Dharma there, it would have been Smokey, in an attempt to get off the isnald. Pretty much none of his explaination around that makes any sense.

Of course, that's partly because there's a HUGE gaping hole around everything to do with Dharma being there and the relationship of Ben to Jacob. Why wasn't Jacob talking to Ben? Why didn't Richard know that? When was Ben and Jacob talking and what actions were driven by Jacob?

And don't even get me started on his pandering abouit 'big spiritual issues most shows don't touch". Like I said earlier, this version of philosophy is Touched by an Angel 101. If he wants to see a show that touches on the issues in an interesting way, spend a little while watching Dead Like Me.

I do think he raises a couple interesting points though, and it's a pretty well thought out synopsis. I just hope it isn't actually one of the writers, because if it is it indicates even they have no real idea what was going on.

I rewatched the finale in part last night. Thought about the show some more. And find myself more and more pissed at the manipulative redirection of the sideways waiting room. I'm all for character development, but a character driven show without any actual story is called a soap opera. Want to delve into some new character behavior? Bring in the never before seen evil twin! Sadly, that's what Lost was - all character, no real story. They threw in bits and pieces of various philosophies and concepts like a Golden Corral version of a philosophical buffet. They didn't actually explore any of them - seriously, the big philisopholical revelation is that we get to meet up with our 'soulmates' and join them in heaven when we die? Seriously?

Hey, time travel is a cool concept! Throw that in! No, we won't actually explore the effects or the concept (exactly what did happen to the future when they blew up the future hatch with a nuclear bomb? Nothing!) but it's cool. Numerology? Yea, that's cool too! And I was reading this book by a guy named Locke last week - let's throw that in too!

Well, at least they saved me $250 on the blus in August.
 
Lookin4Precious said:
Read through MOST of the threads, so if this has been mentioned already forgive me. I'm going to try and trunicate my thoughts as I don't want to get too long winded.

Let me first say that the Flash Sideways being revealed as a Purgatory of sorts was beautiful, resonant and completely straight forward. I wasn't left saying "WTF" or "Huh" afterwards, as it is one of the few instances in all of LOST where Characters actually have something flat out explained to them. Christian told Jack, and us all there was to know about the Sideways, and if you liked it, great, if not, oh well, but for people that didn't get it or are confused by it.... anyway....

My confusion came in the actual Island story itself. I loved this too, and clearly the plot points and what actually happened wasn't confusing to me, but the point behind it all left me quite puzzled. I thought about it all night and day, and suddenly mid afternoon it all clicked and I had an "awakening" of sorts myself, and fell in love with the show all over again. I think I'll do bullets to get the point across as clear as possible.

Here is my interpretation of what events took place and why they took place and how they played into the overall show:

1. Jack Shepherd is a "Man of Science" who constantly needs something to FIX. This aching need often confuses those around him (and often Jack himself) into thinking that he is a Leader.

2. We watch Jack during the first 3 seasons as he LEADS the survivors of Flight 815 with varying degrees of success. His refusal to believe in the Island, his destiny and John Locke shape his character as being stubborn, reason based and flawed.

3. After the reveal that Jack gets off the Island only to become a broken, self destructive man that views himself as a failure, the next 3 seasons show Jacks journey to redemption. He first takes up the reigns of leadership again, but this time with a more purpose driven, faith based resolve. After the failed detonation of Jughead, Jack loses all ability to believe in himself and his actions, and wants nothing to do with a leadership postition. He resigns himself to follow.

4. He follows this until he becomes overwhelmingly certain of his purpose in life. The reason he returned to the Island. What his life has been building to all along. He is meant to replace Jacob. And Jacob has known this too, but needed Jack to come to that decision on his own. HOWEVER, Jacob knows Jack (and all the candidates) better than they know themselves. Jacob knows that Jacks driving force in life is not to lead, but to fix, and that is the job Jacob has always needed Jack to facilitate.

5. Now, before we continue, let us recognize that once the shows big picture became clear it also became clear that Season 2 stood as a metaphor for the entire series. Desmond stuck in his hatch waiting for his replacement to come free him from his job which required him to push a button to save the world symbolizes Jacob being stuck on the Island waiting for his replacement to come free him from his job which requires him to protect a light to save the world. When Locke broke the computer and brought everything to the edge of utter disaster, Desmond did the only thing he could do, he turned the failsafe key. Being exposed to the massive amount of Electro Magnetism made Desmond uniquely resilient to such exposure from that point on. Due to this development, Desmond himself became the "Fail Safe Key" for Jacob.

6. Now, knowing that if things got as crazy for the light/island as they did for the button/hatch he would need his key, Jacob visited Widmore and convinced him to kidnap Desmond and bring him to the island. Widmore followed instructions and once there, exposed Desmond to another blast of EM energy per Jacobs request. This blasted Desmond into the Sideways World, which he realized was in fact an afterlife of sorts. Knowing that this afterlife existed and knowing what it held for him, Desmond returned to the Island world fearless. He had nothing to fear because the Sideways world was waiting for him after this life. Jacob now knew that he could count on Desmond to do what was needed.

7. So Desmond comes into play. MiB believes that he can use Desmond to destroy the light/island and finally go home. Jack believes that there is no way Jacob would have gone through all that trouble to bring Desmond back to the Island if his going into the light would simply destory the Island. So both "Men" lay their cards on the table and bet against each other. They want the same thing (desmond to go down into the light) and both expect that they will get what they want. And, they are both right and they are both wrong.

8. In the premiere of this season, as Juliet was dying, she mumbled about going dutch on coffee, and we well versed LOSTIES assumed that her Sideways incarnation was bleeding through and that we would eventually see a scene where she and Sawyer were reunited over coffee (we cheered..... and waited..... and waited....). But then she said something else. She said she had something very important to tell James...... and then she died. Thanks to Miles' ability to communicate with the dead, he was able to pick up her last lost words... "It worked". At the time we took it to be the first sign that our Island folk might learn about the Sideways world, or at least the first indication that detonating Jughead and resetting the events that led to the crash of Flight 815 had worked. Of course, it hadn't. It was a red herring that made us think what we were watching was the reset events due to Jughead. Well played Darlton... BUT, they had one more trick up their sleeve. At first I was tickled pink to learn that "It worked" referred to nothing more than a vending machine being unplugged and tricking a stubborn candy bar to fall free of its coil. Of all the things that "It worked" could have been referring to, I dont think anybody ventured to guess it referred to Apollo Bars and Vending Machines. BUT, as I have come to believe... it meant a LOT more than that....

8.5 .... Darlton knew that fans would be looking forward to the Sawyer/Juliet reunion, and that it had to be great. And it was, on an emotional level. So much so, that we (or at least I) totally overlooked the BIG clue that was being given to us in that scene. Juliet informed Sawyer how to get what he wanted; the stuck candy bar. She told him that all he had to do was unplug the vending machine, it would reset, and the candy bar would be free. He did it, and when he did, the lights went out, the candy bar feel and Juilet uttered the phrase "it worked". That whole scene was a metaphor meant to shed light on....

9. ... Desmond down in the light. He entered the pool of light, and approached what looked to be a literal cork in the bottom of the pool (but for clarity sake, lets call it a Plug, which has a dual meaning anyway). Desmond entered the pool, unphased by the lights power due to his gift, and UNPLUGGED the light source from the island. The light went out.... It worked. Then ____ hit the fan. The Man IN Black gloated that Jack was wrong and he was seemingly correct as the Island began to crumble right then and there. As the Man In Black attempted to leave, Jack tackled him to the ground and started to wail on him with his fists.... and low and behold, The Man In Black BLED! But it looked as though Jack was right too... Desmond was the key to killing the man in Black. And later, thats exactly what Jack did.

10. So what exactly did Desmond do??? I believe that when he unplugged the island, he reset it, just as Juliet instructed Sawyer to do with the vending machine. Once reset, it took away all the gifts, magic, power of the island and in that very moment, the Man In Black was the smoke monster no more, nor was he immortal... just as Richard seemingly began to age AND, Desmond was suddenly no longer immune to the harmful effects of the light. Which is why he couldn't just go back in and plug the island back in. In order to do that, the island would demand a sacrifice.

11. It was just after Jack had killed the Man In Black, as the Island was crumbling about him that he realized that THIS was his destiny. He was never meant to be the leader of the island, he was only ever meant to FIX it. He destroyed the evil that had corrupted the island, and in order to get it "walking" again, he would have to sacrifice himself by going into the light and plugging it back in. And then the true Island Protector, Hurley could take his place as leader of the newly reset Island that would be a Tabula Rasa for him and his number 2, Ben Linus.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.... what do you guys think?
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I think that pretty much is perfect.

RoboDad posted this over at S&F. Guess it may have been written by one of the writers

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
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Yea, that's a great synopsis. I particularly like 8.5 - the connection between the candy machine and the island 'plug'. Part of the reason that it's good is that it pretty much ignores anything that happened in the first five seasons beyond "Jack is a man of science and his destiny is on the island" and then explains the final season. Sadly, the final season and what came before aren't what hook up particularly well.

Okay, so maybe I will pick up the blus. Damn it. I'll just fast forward through the sideways stuff :D
 
Michael Crawford said:
Well, there's a couple major problems with the text. First, there's no indication at any time during the six years that Jacob is bringing the candidates to the island to kill Smokey
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That's because, according to David Fury, the writers at the time of his participation had no idea where the show was going. "Lost" is the decade's best example of The Emperor's New Clothes.
 
Michael Crawford said:
Well, there's a couple major problems with the text. First, there's no indication at any time during the six years that Jacob is bringing the candidates to the island to kill Smokey. Keep him on the island, yes. Protect the light, yes. Replace Jacob, yes. Kill Smokey? No. So if that was the point of Jacob's game, then the writer's hid it a tad too well.
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That's not a problem with the text, that is you interpreting it differently. Which isn't a bad thing and doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong, either. A character can have a motivation without outright saying so.

The other problem is with the explaination of Dharma. The idea that Jacob brought Dharma there, a group that was going to exploit the power of the island, not protect it, seems a bit odd. On top of that, there's no indication that Smokey corrupted them before Ben was turned. They had the fence blocking him from the group, and they had the drug which I think kept their minds from being read and manipulated by Smokey (my opinion). Then Ben, who's supposedly under Smokey's control at this point, wipes them out? Why would Smokey want that if he was the one that brought them there in the first place? If anyone would have wanted Dharma there, it would have been Smokey, in an attempt to get off the isnald. Pretty much none of his explaination around that makes any sense.
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As I recall, they did venture outside of the gate. Plenty of time to slowly corrupt them, as they were there for a period of years. Some of them were very flawed people as well. If Smokey saw that corrupting Ben was a better alternative than Dharma, it makes sense to help Ben murder his own father and friends to assist in his corruption. Can't get much worse than that, after all. Both Jacob and Smokey were planning for the long term.

Of course, that's partly because there's a HUGE gaping hole around everything to do with Dharma being there and the relationship of Ben to Jacob. Why wasn't Jacob talking to Ben? Why didn't Richard know that? When was Ben and Jacob talking and what actions were driven by Jacob?
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I recall that Ben never talked to Jacob and simply pretended that he did, but I could be wrong. I don't actually remember if Richard remembered or not, I'd have to go back and watch previous seasons.

I disagree on a few of your later points, but since they would involve a lot of text and I've got to run for a bit, I'll totally cheap out and not reply to those parts. :lol Interesting points though!
 
Michael Crawford said:
Well, there's a couple major problems with the text. First, there's no indication at any time during the six years that Jacob is bringing the candidates to the island to kill Smokey. Keep him on the island, yes. Protect the light, yes. Replace Jacob, yes. Kill Smokey? No. So if that was the point of Jacob's game, then the writer's hid it a tad too well.
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I believe when sawyer sees that room with names not all of them are from just flight 815. So its easy to assume that those are the names of others brought to the island. For me personally keeping smokey on the island meant killing him. The MIB couldn't kill jacob without having someone else do it so why couldn't it be just the opposite if that was the way to save the island.

Michael Crawford said:
Of course, that's partly because there's a HUGE gaping hole around everything to do with Dharma being there and the relationship of Ben to Jacob. Why wasn't Jacob talking to Ben? Why didn't Richard know that? When was Ben and Jacob talking and what actions were driven by Jacob?
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The reason for Dharma is left open. I'm gonna roll with some of them where candidates at one time or another.

Michael Crawford said:
And don't even get me started on his pandering about 'big spiritual issues most shows don't touch". Like I said earlier, this version of philosophy is Touched by an Angel 101. If he wants to see a show that touches on the issues in an interesting way, spend a little while watching Dead Like Me.
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Uh a lot of shows don't go there. The ones that do tend to be on Hallmark or the religous channels.

Michael Crawford said:
I rewatched the finale in part last night. Thought about the show some more. And find myself more and more pissed at the manipulative redirection of the sideways waiting room. I'm all for character development, but a character driven show without any actual story is called a soap opera. Want to delve into some new character behavior? Bring in the never before seen evil twin! Sadly, that's what Lost was - all character, no real story. They threw in bits and pieces of various philosophies and concepts like a Golden Corral version of a philosophical buffet. They didn't actually explore any of them - seriously, the big philisopholical revelation is that we get to meet up with our 'soulmates' and join them in heaven when we die? Seriously?

Hey, time travel is a cool concept! Throw that in! No, we won't actually explore the effects or the concept (exactly what did happen to the future when they blew up the future hatch with a nuclear bomb? Nothing!) but it's cool. Numerology? Yea, that's cool too! And I was reading this book by a guy named Locke last week - let's throw that in too!

Well, at least they saved me $250 on the blus in August.
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No offense Mike but you sound pissed cause they didn't write the ending of the show the way YOU wanted them too. As someone who has watched every show over the course of the six seasons it was on I don't feel manipulated at all in this last season. I think the sideways world makes total sense.

Its an area their souls can go to once they're dead in order to be together again. They all ended up really with such a strong bond with each other its not hard to buy into they would wait after death. I know I have friends and family I could see my soul waiting for to hang out with and be with again when my time comes and they're not gone yet.

As far as this being a soap opera as far as story and character development go. I say oh come the heck on already with that junk. Did you miss how all these characters changed and fixed their issues over the course of the six seasons. That they all realized at one point or another they needed each other and in order to fix themselves they had to ask for help.
 
The Josh said:
As far as this being a soap opera as far as story and character development go. I say oh come the heck on already with that junk. Did you miss how all these characters changed and fixed their issues over the course of the six seasons. That they all realized at one point or another they needed each other and in order to fix themselves they had to ask for help.
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Anyone holding up Lost as an example of good character development should be forced to watch nothing but David Mamet and Aaron Sorkin for a year, Clockwork Orange style.
 
barbelith said:
Anyone holding up Lost as an example of good character development should be forced to watch nothing but David Mamet and Aaron Sorkin for a year, Clockwork Orange style.
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Its not perfect but I didn't have a problem with the way they developed over the 6 seasons.
 
Ok, if we accept the fact that the creators had the beginning and ending set from the start, as has been stated many times, and discussed by the apparent writer in that article, the show makes more sense to me. They did have the "basic" plot from beginning to end... they just didn't have a middle! :lol Which is why they told the network they needed an end date; so they could plot their way to the end. So most of what we saw between season 1 and season 6 was really just filler to get to the ending... and probably why they don't have decent answers to some of the questions they created in trying to get to their ending. They were making it up as they went along!!! :slap

And the explanation for the "sideways" world was pretty good... I can live with that, but I'll still say the writers mishandled it and could have done a better job of it.

And one last thing... many have said this is about the characters, but you can't have a good character without a good story for him/her to be in, so YES, the story is important, and for the writers to just make it up as they went along, waiting to get to the ending they did have... that is probably what is bothering several of us who felt let down.
 

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