Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

[Khev]

And I'm not the biggest Nolanite, but I don't think anything he's done so far warrants the Lucas comparison. I mean, damn. That's about the worst insult you could give a successful filmmaker

Lucas allowed Harmy to do his thing, therefore I can no longer truly hate him.

 

[snoop101]

Not my absolute favourite listens, no. But I have no objection to those scores for those films. If I'm in a mood for that portrayal of Batman I do listen to those soundtracks and turn it up loud when the main theme comes on.

The problem here is Zimmer was going up against the Williams score, the main theme of which is possibly my favourite piece of music of all time.

I think that's the issue other's have with Zimmer's soundtrack as well. People are just so used to hearing the Williams theme associated with Superman, that even Zimmer's soundtrack (which is very good) just sounds average to them. The Fact is Williams old theme being used for Man Of Steel would've been very odd and unfitting for this "new" Superman.

 

[Khev]

You guys are right though. I shouldn't have invoked the name of Lucas and Cameron with regard to Nolan. At least Nolan still respects the artistry of actual celluloid and practical effects.

The only one who gets a pass in that regard is Peter Jackson. He does the digital thing but always in a way that I appreciate.

 

[jye4ever]

Yeah, i'm not ready to start ****ting on Nolan.

BB is amazing, TDK is a brilliant film, close to a genuine masterpiece.

Not his fault what happened to Ledger

TDKR would've been a different movie if not for that tragic event.

Ok, back to MOS.

 

[a-dev]

I think that's the issue other's have with Zimmer's soundtrack as well. People are just so used to hearing the Williams theme associated with Superman, that even Zimmer's soundtrack (which is very good) just sounds average to them. The Fact is Williams old theme being used for Man Of Steel would've been very odd and unfitting for this "new" Superman.

I'm just not sure about that. Used at the appropriate moments and not as buildings were collapsing and thousands of people were potentially dying the theme could maybe have worked....or maybe not.

However this is something I always worried about with a new Superman film. Was it right to take Superman in such a direction where an uplifting theme like Williams' one doesn't fit. You (and Nolan) would say yes. I would say no.

 

[snoop101]

I'm just not sure about that. Used at the appropriate moments and not as buildings were collapsing and thousands of people were potentially dying the theme could maybe have worked....or maybe not.

However this is something I always worried about with a new Superman film. Was it right to take Superman in such a direction where an uplifting theme like Williams' one doesn't fit. You would say yes. I would say no.

The problem with using older themes is that it reminds us of what was before. This is a whole new take on Superman, using Williams theme just wouldn't make much sense. Nolan didn't use Elfman's theme in his TDK trilogy. Why? Because it was used in the Burton movies. MOS acts as if No Superman movies were made before it, It's as simple as that.

Have you seen the fan-made Man Of Steel trailer that uses the Williams theme? All it did was re-assure me that it wouldn't work.

 

[a-dev]

The problem with using older themes is that it reminds us of what was before. This is a whole new take on Superman, using Williams theme just wouldn't make much sense. Nolan didn't use Elfman's theme in his TDK trilogy. Why? Because it was used in the Burton movies. MOS acts as if No Superman movies were made before it, It's as simple as that.

Have you seen the fan-made Man Of Steel trailer that uses the Williams theme? All it did was re-assure me that it wouldn't work.

It had the opposite effect on me.

With the Batman theme argument and Nolan not using the Elfman theme...I keep going back to Bond. The Bond theme is always Bond's theme and that despite different iterations of the character pretending they are the only Bond that's ever been. So you can do that and get away with it. And who would accept a Bond film where that wasn't the theme? For me that's how closely bonded (no pun intended) with Superman the Williams theme is. And I just don't think I can get away from it.

 

[IrishJedi]

A quick side note after talking about Zack working with music & imagery and cutting his own trailers... I can't believe it's already been 5 years since this initial, awesome WATCHMEN teaser:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc2EgLp_nyg[/ame]

 

[Rorywan]

A quick side note after talking about Zack working with music & imagery and cutting his own trailers... I can't believe it's already been 5 years since this initial, awesome WATCHMEN teaser:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc2EgLp_nyg

I always loved that Pumpkins track. The best thing to come out of Batman and Robin!!. To be honest though you could have cut together parts of the Kardashian's to it and it would still be cool.

I think Zach is great at working with songs/tracks in a music promo style (which he has done for years) and this worked brilliantly in Watchmen as a whole. But scoring movies is not his strong point IMO. There's a big difference between cutting to a pre-existing amazing track (opening of Dawn to Johnny Cash for example) and creating a score and sequence of imagery that is unique. None of his scores have been very good. The song selections yes, scores no.

 

[snoop101]

It had the opposite effect on me.

With the Batman theme argument and Nolan not using the Elfman theme...I keep going back to Bond. The Bond theme is always Bond's theme and that despite different iterations of the character pretending they are the only Bond that's ever been. So you can do that and get away with it. And who would accept a Bond film where that wasn't the theme? For me that's how closely bonded with Superman the Williams theme is. And I just don't think I can get away from it.

Sure it works for Bond, but I think that's where the exception ends. It just wouldn't work for Superman or Batman. When you're starting from scratch and creating your own take on a character, borrowing certain elements (such as music) from the films that came before, just doesn't seem very creative.

why wouldn't they just re-use the Superman Returns costume then? and Have Spacey return as Lex?

 

[IrishJedi]

I always loved that Pumpkins track. The best thing to come out of Batman and Robin!!. To be honest though you could have cut together parts of the Kardashian's to it and it would still be cool.

Agreed. Except maybe on the Kardashian bit. I mean, there are limits.

I think Zach is great at working with songs/tracks in a music promo style (which he has done for years) and this worked brilliantly in Watchmen as a whole. But scoring movies is not his strong point IMO. There's a big difference between cutting to a pre-existing amazing track (opening of Dawn to Johnny Cash for example) and creating a score and sequence of imagery that is unique. None of his scores have been very good. The song selections yes, scores no.

He doesn't write the scores, though. You seem to be forgetting this fact. That said, I like Tyler Bates' scores to 300 and WATCHMEN quite a bit.

But you're right... he is good at taking existing music and cutting it with his own shots. In fact, maybe he should be more like Lucas and just take the music a composer scores for his film and re-work it and cut it in as he sees fit, instead of respecting the composer's own cue and timing choices.

Heck, he's capable of doing that effectively with the stuff Zimmer wrote for MAN OF STEEL, as evidenced by the final two trailers, my favorite now being the "Fate of Your Planet" one:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlOF03DUoWc[/ame]

That is Zack having fun and unchained creative control with Zimmer's MOS score.

So, yeah, maybe he should have stepped on Zimmer's toes (and pissed off Nolan) and just refactor the score, where needed. But that wasn't going to happen.

 

[JAWS]

Yeah, he did. This was not ALIEN 3 in that regard. If he was handcuffed, it was only really the script (in which case only some polish drafts could be done... and were... because the only alternative was to stop production and start over) and the score.

It just seems to me a lot of what some people complain about are script-related things. It's easy for those who don't like Zack to say, "Well, he's the Director, so EVERYTHING is on him", but that's being obtuse. If you have a problem with the way the film was shot, the way it was staged and blocked, the action choreography, the actors, the overall editing... yeah, that's him. But the script and score? Go pound sand.

People blaming him for Zimmer's score in the movie particularly annoys me. Because if there is one thing Zack does better than just about anybody, it's marrying music with motion imagery. It's been his bread and butter his whole career. He didn't all of a sudden lose those skills on MAN OF STEEL. In fact, the temp score he cut in on earlier edits of the movie kicked all kinds of ***. And his initial idea was to actually ask Williams to come in and write a NEW Superman theme and score for a new generation, but that was immediately shot down by Nolan who had his boy Zimmer pegged, probably before even Zack was brought onboard.

I have no problem blaming the script... It all starts with the script.. If ZS did not have a character focused script to work with then I don't blame him.... I think it's why I give a pass to Brett Ratner. Everyone dumps on him for X-men 3 but it was the script.. Sure Ratner is nothing special but neither is Singer IMO... Not lately anyways. Had Ratner had a better script the X 3 would have been much better.

So as far as the Score and script go then No it's not ZS fault but as the director he should be a little more demanding. If he really don't give a **** what other people say then he should have put his foot down and demanded better material. While I know that the studio put things out of his control a bit he should have put up a bit of a fight.

Whoever is complaining about Zimmer's score needs to be b**** slapped.

You are welcome to try .

I think that's the issue other's have with Zimmer's soundtrack as well. People are just so used to hearing the Williams theme associated with Superman, that even Zimmer's soundtrack (which is very good) just sounds average to them. The Fact is Williams old theme being used for Man Of Steel would've been very odd and unfitting for this "new" Superman.

My issue with the score is that even after listening to the score on CD before seeing the film. The music just did not stand out. While TDK theme is very simple it stands out when Nolan and Zimmer want you to hear it. MoS really had no stand out theme. You could have put that score in any action film and it would have fit. That was my biggest issue with it.

 

[JAWS]

So, yeah, maybe he should have stepped on Zimmer's toes (and pissed off Nolan) and just refactor the score, where needed. But that wasn't going to happen.

While I agree that the score is better reflected in the trailer... I still find it underwhelming... But that's me.. I did not have to have the Williams Score again. But an actual theme fitting of Superman would have been nice.

 

[a-dev]

Sure it works for Bond, but I think that's where the exception ends. It just wouldn't work for Superman or Batman. When you're starting from scratch and creating your own take on a character, borrowing certain elements (such as music) from the films that came before, just doesn't seem very creative.

why wouldn't they just re-use the Superman Returns costume then? and Have Spacey return as Lex?

You cannot break through my stubbornness on this one, I should just tell you off the bat.

I am preprogrammed now to not like any Superman film as much as I otherwise could if the Williams theme were used. The same applies to any other Superman entertainment like that animated movie with Doomsday. Cool...but no Williams theme. I fear those words will be the best I can manage about any future Superman film. In a way, John Williams has ruined Superman. ***k you John Williams.

 

[IrishJedi]

While I agree that the score is better reflected in the trailer... I still find it underwhelming... But that's me.. I did not have to have the Williams Score again. But an actual theme fitting of Superman would have been nice.

I don't disagree. But that would be a handicap of the score itself. It is what it is.

 

[IrishJedi]

So as far as the Score and script go then No it's not ZS fault but as the director he should be a little more demanding. If he really don't give a **** what other people say then he should have put his foot down and demanded better material. While I know that the studio put things out of his control a bit he should have put up a bit of a fight.

This was a little different than any of his other films in that he didn't have quite as much creative control over certain things. He had more even on DAWN and 300 (his first 2 movies), whereas MAN OF STEEL was more like a work-for-hire gig. His job was essentially to come in and put the script Goyer and Nolan delivered onscreen. That said, there was still some stuff done when Zack and Debbie came onboard... including some re-working of the script. And he did make the movie his own. Some of the biggest elements (design, casting, etc) came together once Zack and Debbie were there. But I'm pretty sure they were never in a position to make wholesale changes on some things. WB was also a bit more hands-on than in the past. Perhaps that will be a different story with the sequel, since it looks like this film afforded them a bit more clout and credit with WB (and Nolan appears to be backing away a little now as well).

 

[JAWS]

Sure it works for Bond, but I think that's where the exception ends. It just wouldn't work for Superman or Batman. When you're starting from scratch and creating your own take on a character, borrowing certain elements (such as music) from the films that came before, just doesn't seem very creative.

While I think the Williams Score could have been used in some capacity (not full blow but in bits and pieces until the end like Casino Royale) I think the film without question could have been saved for me by a better score. Most of my all time fav. film have fantastic film scores. Sometimes a film can be lifted out of mediocrity by a fantastic score.

For example... While I love the original Conan the Barbarian, I am aware of the fact that the films score is responsible for a great deal of my enjoyment. Same goes for The Last of the Mohicans. A good film (even though it corny at times) made great by the films fantastic music.

Had MoS had some memorable, emotional, musical cues I think It would have greatly improved my feelings towards it.

It's not bad music.. I am not saying that.. Just sort of forgettable. If this score was in any other film other then MoS nobody would care about it IMO.

 

[JAWS]

This was a little different than any of his other films in that he didn't have quite as much creative control over certain things. He had more even on DAWN and 300 (his first 2 movies), whereas MAN OF STEEL was more like a work-for-hire gig. His job was essentially to come in and put the script Goyer and Nolan delivered onscreen. That said, there was still some stuff done when Zack and Debbie came onboard... including some re-working of the script. And he did make the movie his own. Some of the biggest elements (design, casting, etc) came together once Zack and Debbie were there. But I'm pretty sure they were never in a position to make wholesale changes on some things. WB was also a bit more hands-on than in the past. Perhaps that will be a different story with the sequel, since it looks like this film afforded them a bit more clout and credit with WB (and Nolan appears to be backing away a little now as well).

Interesting... I hope ZS is allowed more freedom.. I think he is a talent and have enjoyed some of films greatly. Of course the ones he probably had the most creative control SP and Watchmen are my least favs.. So I hope they don't let him go too crazy

 

[karamazov80]

While I agree that the score is better reflected in the trailer... I still find it underwhelming... But that's me.. I did not have to have the Williams Score again. But an actual theme fitting of Superman would have been nice.

For what it's worth, I didn't really notice the score in this film. . .so, it isn't like it sucked and ruined the film experience, but it didn't draw me to it like Williams' theme did either (or some of Zimmer's work in the Bat-films for that matter). For me, I guess this was another instance where I'm sure something was all done capably, but it didn't feel particularly special or memorable.

 

[snoop101]

Had MoS had some memorable, emotional, musical cues I think It would have greatly improved my feelings towards it.

I disagree, there were many emotional, memorable songs that played during the film. Things don't become "iconic" in a few days, It'll take a while for it to set in.