Man of Steel (SPOILERS)

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It is actually set up in the original and is followed up with Superman II. Celtic is dead on.

Remember Jor-El's wisdom and telling Clark that "it is forbidden" during his teachings? Superman is at odds with his Earth father Pa Kent (whom he couldn't save) and Jor-El, his Kryptonian father from whom he gets his powers from. They most definitely set up the idea that Superman can save anyone from anything, except death (film 1) and if he does interfere, there will be consequences (film 2).

It did set it up with Pa Kent. That's why we hear the narratation with Pa Kent/Clark Kent's scene vs. Jor-El's wisdom when Superman flies up and starts freaking out. Superman is at a cross roads. "All those powers and I couldn't even save him" vs. "You have the ability to save them, but interfering with history is forbidden".

What happens when Superman disregards his father's advice, reverses time and gets rid of the nuclear war head to selfishly let Lois live? He frees Zod from the Phantom Zone in the process, who in turn wrecks havoc on the world.



I mean, what did you guys want? You wanted Lois to die and that's it? What audience would want something that bleak? Superman deserves to have that outcome, he disobeys his father's warning, and pays for it. He goes through an arc. What's the problem?

That's doesn't set up the notion that he can save everyone, at all, when he reverses time, there are no consequences, when he got rid of the nuke, it wasn't only to save Lois, and c'mon, really convenient that the phantom Zone mirror was just passing by.... another genius plot gimmick.

I didn't want Lois to die, but for godsake, find a decent way to make him actually save her and not go DBZ on her :lol might as well give him the dragon ballz, seriously, did you not have physics back then?
 
That's doesn't set up the possibility to save everyone, at all, when he reverses time, there are no consequences, when he got rid of the nuke, it wasn't only to save Lois, and c'mon, really convenient that the phantom Zone mirror was just passing by.... another genius plot gimmick.

Who cares if it's convenient? It's convenient that the Kent's family pet is trapped in a car during a tornado. It's convenient that the evil Kryptonian's arrive as soon as Superman emerges. It's convenient that Jack Napier is the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents. It's convenient that Bruce Wayne is trained by an evil terrorist organization. It's convenient that Peter Parker and Norman Osborn get their powers on the same night. It's convenient that Peter loses his powers right when Doc Ock shows up.

It's set up in the beginning of the film that Jor-El and Krypton has sentenced the three villains to a life of prison in the Phantom Zone. That's enough for me. Atleast the filmmakers and writers carefully set it up.

Jor-El warns Clark that there may be a day that he may have to face Zod. It's all set up perfectly and shows Superman's hubris and selfishness. If he hadn't focused all his efforts on one person (Lois) he wouldn't have,

- freed Zod and Co.
- lost his powers while Zod and Co. terrorize the planet

Superman comes out of that a stronger character, "sorry I've been away so long, I'll never let you down again". Hell, he even realizes his folly after he's beaten to a pulp by the trucker at the diner.


did you not have physics back then?


It's physically impossible (as far as we know) to turn back time by flying around the earth as fast as we possibly can.

But you know what? It's physically impossible for a humanoid with a mass like Superman to be able to fly. Or lift tons and tons over your own weight. Or shoot rays from his eyes. Or change clothes in the blink of an eye. Or have a magical crystal fortress full of weird, magical ****. Or have your dad's consciousness talk to you in full form, floating around in said fortress after being dead for years. Or have skin and clothes that are resistant to wounds or tears. It's impossible to kiss a chick and make her forget everything. It's impossible to literally split into two people. There are no physics to Superman.

Turning back time is just as natural as any of the crazy crap he does that doesn't physically make sense in comics or movies.
 
Who cares if it's convenient? It's convenient that the Kent's family pet is trapped in a car during a tornado. It's convenient that the evil Kryptonian's arrive as soon as Superman emerges. It's convenient that Jack Napier is the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents. It's convenient that Bruce Wayne is trained by an evil terrorist organization. It's convenient that Peter Parker and Norman Osborn get their powers on the same night. It's convenient that Peter loses his powers right when Doc Ock shows up.

It's set up in the beginning of the film that Jor-El and Krypton has sentenced the three villains to a life of prison in the Phantom Zone. That's enough for me. Atleast the filmmakers and writers carefully set it up.

Jor-El warns Clark that there may be a day that he may have to face Zod. It's all set up perfectly and shows Superman's hubris and selfishness. If he hadn't focused all his efforts on one person (Lois) he wouldn't have,

- freed Zod and Co.
- lost his powers while Zod and Co. terrorize the planet

Superman comes out of that a stronger character, "sorry I've been away so long, I'll never let you down again". Hell, he even realizes his folly after he's beaten to a pulp by the trucker at the diner.

What are the chances that a tornado shows up in Kansas?

Compared to the chances of a meandering mirror in space on god knows how far Krypton is from earth, but far enough that you need to bend space to get there, to arrive at the exact moment when the nuke is being thrown directly at it?

And every other case you mentioned is highly more likely that that.

And again, that doesn't set up that he can save everybody, in fact, he can't, that's why he had to reverse time.

Also, the fact that Zod arrived in MoS wasn't convenient, did you miss the part where Supes actually sends a signal by starting his ship?

It's physically impossible (as far as we know) to turn back time by flying around the earth as fast as we possibly can.

But you know what? It's physically impossible for a humanoid with a mass like Superman to be able to fly. Or lift tons and tons over your own weight. Or shoot rays from his eyes. Or change clothes in the blink of an eye. Or have a magical crystal fortress full of weird, magical ****. Or have your dad's consciousness talk to you in full form, floating around in said fortress after being dead for years. Or have skin and clothes that are resistant to wounds or tears. It's impossible to kiss a chick and make her forget everything. It's impossible to literally split into two people. There are no physics to Superman.

Turning back time is just as natural as any of the crazy crap he does that doesn't physically make sense in comics or movies.

It was only a matter of time before the excuse: "So what if he can reverse the time? he can also fliez! Iz both impozibles!!! :lol

Not only it's impossible to reverse time like that, Do you have any idea of how fast the Earth rotates? If you simply reduce the rotation speed a little, ALL of us, and all things not attached to earth would be victim of inertia, now imagine stopping... now imagine REVERSING, instantly, Every living thing would die, talk about saving everyone :lol

Now, regarding the flight, there are several theories: Controlling his own gravitational field is one of them, that's no impossible, there are several theories of anti gravity devices, a feat of strength, compressing the air so hard and so fast that it turns into a solid platform.

Almost indestructible clothing, why not? You know how resistant graphene is? Who's to say an Alien technology can't achieve more?

Impenetrable skin, that's perfectly explained.

Heat vision, could be a mutation.

None of Superman traits actually break any rules of science or science fiction, not at least in the distance STMP did.
 
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I don't. And I don't care too. But I know that Superman is a hero. And what I saw in Man of Steel was not a hero.
 
You know, The Punisher saves people too. Doesn't make him a hero.

A true and blue hero is someone who put's himself in front of others. A true blue hero would not, in any way, fight a crazy man, over saving the people around him.


But the fact is...why the **** would you write a scene where Superman has to travel to ****ing India to punch a laser? Why? Or at least why not ever show his ability to hear the screams, and pain of others, and have him react to something for once. Instead of acting like a badass, and fighting General Angry Face.
 
Uh. Yey? It's almost just like the ending of Watchmen the movie. If they killed Adrian. Yeah, the movie ends, and people move on...but the ending is ****ing dour, because millions of people died for so little. Except one man's twisted fantasies.

If by little you mean saving billions, then i agree.
 
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It's not that the plot is hard to follow because we're "stupid", its because the plot is stupidly complicated for no ****ing reason other then padding out the running time. The plot is meaningless compared to what the movie was attempting to say.

This was my main issue with the movie too. I felt like there were things they tried to explain too much and in the end didn't actually explain them that clearly at all (like the ancient ship on earth, atmosphere, terraforming, codex etc). They succeeded at making a movie that displays his powers really well, but the actual story is pretty bad.

To this day I still think the best interpretation of Superman was the New Adventures of Lois and Clark with Dean Cain. I know a lot of people write it off but it is worth a watch, especially the first 2 seasons.
 
So it's fine and dandy to have Superman alert the Kryptonians of his presence from a hidden beacon inside the fortress of solitude, but it's too crazy and convenient when Superman catches a nuke, throws it out in space, and it detonates causing it to damage the phantom zone and let the villains escape? Well okay then.

What about the Codex and DNA in Clark's blood? That's definitely a stupid plot device. How is that not convenient that the very thing Zod and Co. are looking for is located in . . . Superman's blood stream?

The hypocrisy, I'll tell ya.
 
There's a difference between hero and anti-hero, that's the punisher.

Superman is a hero, both in MoS and STMP.

He wouldn't have fought him if he had no intentions to stay where he was and his mission was not to hurt people.

Did you not see how the world engine works? Hence the scene in the pacific.

If he paid attention to the people around him struggling and ignored Zod, there would have been more casualties, many many more.
 
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So it's fine and dandy to have Superman alert the Kryptonians of his presence from a hidden beacon inside the fortress of solitude, but it's too crazy and convenient when Superman catches a nuke, throws it out in space, and it detonates causing it to damage the phantom zone and let the villains escape? Well okay then.

What about the Codex and DNA in Clark's blood? That's definitely a stupid plot device. How is that not convenient that the very thing Zod and Co. are looking for is located in . . . Superman's blood stream?

The hypocrisy, I'll tell ya.

You got that right, the hypocrisy.

Again, do you even have a notion of the chance that a mirror, meandering in space, hits a nuke, that's coming from the earth? Do you realize how big space is, how small of a movement can detour an object and change completely it's movement? I don't think you do if you're comparing it to everything you mention.

Add to that the fact that the vessel was designed as part of a recon mission to seek for habitable planets, does it really sound that far fetched? Honestly?

The Codex, being an object or Supes blood wouldn't have made a difference, by making it Supes blood it reinforces the fact that he's the bridge between 2 people that otherwise don't exist.

It may be convenient, but not in length of any plot device in the old movies, by a looooooooooooooooong shot.
 
Theres only so many ways you can explain that to someone before you realize that its beyond their scope or their just purposely being obtuse. :dunno

But that's not the point.

It's a movie. It's not real. You have to show me something to care about. I don't care about the citizens of a fake city. How can I? They aren't characters. They're just things in the background.

You can show me billions of people being wiped out, and it's like....so what?

The only way for me to care, is to have the main character care. And if the main character cares, I care, because HE cares. You see how that works?

If you show me, not imply, but show me, him ACTUALLY CARING. Not him punching a laser, but him saving people, personally, one at a time...i'll get it. But they never did. And that's one of the many reasons why the film is a total, utter failure.
How much more rewarding would it have been to see Superman SAVE those two boring, usless characters caught under the rubble? How much more rewarding would it have been to see Superman stand up for the little people, and protect them from the evil General Zod? Watching him punch things isn't rewarding. Watching him kill the bad guy wasn't rewarding either. It was dark, it was dour, it was depressing.

Also, you can't do a scene like that, with hauntingly realistic special effects, showing people dying in the favor serious, dark action, and then turn it all around and be happy at the end. You can't ****ing do that! That's disgusting. To actually have a scene were Lois and Superman kiss....in the crater where THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ONCE LIVED....is just....my god.

It affected me in a very unique way. I didn't feel bad for the fake people in the fake movie....but I felt so appalled by the filmmakers who chose to actually make a scene like that, and think it actually works on some kind of level. It's really telling, and shows how little modern filmmakers care about what their films are actually trying to do.

Joss Whedon made the decision to play that whole battle off as a fun big character moment. And it works. Superman's ending is just a big punchfest with zero character, or purpose....other then punching things.
 
Superman: Zod please, i want to save that person over their, can you stop punching for a minute and just hang on a sec?

Zod: Sure Kal, go be a hero, i'll occupy myself with Faoras underroos until you get back

That;s where things like...tension...and suspense come in. Wouldn't that be incredibly hard, and trying to do? Trying to save people General Zod is hurling at Superman, all while punching him? He'd lose a few, sure. But that would only fuel the character, and only make him stronger. But at least he tried.
 
The kiss scene I didn't like, they should have saved it for MoS 2, when Clark and Lois actually had a relationship.

But to say Superman didn't care in MoS is just, ugh, it's tiring to refute that argument over and over again.

Also, just by making it "fun" you can forget about the people who died, hmmm one quick "I don't see how that's a party" gag and it's all good.

*sigh
 
It is actually set up in the original and is followed up with Superman II. Celtic is dead on.

Remember Jor-El's wisdom and telling Clark that "it is forbidden" during his teachings? Superman is at odds with his Earth father Pa Kent (whom he couldn't save) and Jor-El, his Kryptonian father from whom he gets his powers from. They most definitely set up the idea that Superman can save anyone from anything, except death (film 1) and if he does interfere, there will be consequences (film 2).

It did set it up with Pa Kent. That's why we hear the narratation with Pa Kent/Clark Kent's scene vs. Jor-El's wisdom when Superman flies up and starts freaking out. Superman is at a cross roads. "All those powers and I couldn't even save him" vs. "You have the ability to save them, but interfering with history is forbidden".

What happens when Superman disregards his father's advice, reverses time and gets rid of the nuclear war head to selfishly let Lois live? He frees Zod from the Phantom Zone in the process, who in turn wrecks havoc on the world.



I mean, what did you guys want? You wanted Lois to die and that's it? What audience would want something that bleak? Superman deserves to have that outcome, he disobeys his father's warning, and pays for it. He goes through an arc. What's the problem?

I had an issue with what Celtic wrote....

The original film set up the idea he can save anyone from anything, except death. That was the point.

How did the original "set up" that idea? If that was the point of the film then why in the hell does Superman have the ability to reverse time? Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose? The answer is yes, because he CAN save people from death. He can reverse time for Christ sakes, there was only consequences because he just so happened to set Zod and his gang free. Jor-el should've said "interfering with history is forbidden, because you'll set Zod free."


That's one of the nicest things I've ever seen on these message boards. Snoop is a pretty good guy, thank him CP.

I'm hoping that's not a passaive aggressive comment. Hard to tell....:D

If its not, thanks man. I appreciate it. Writing is a pain in my ***. I loathe it. But sometimes it's fun.

I wasn't serious. If reading your "re-write" of the MOS ending was anything to go by, then you're awful. :lol
 
The kiss scene I didn't like, they should have saved it for MoS 2, when Clark and Lois actually had a relationship.

But to say Superman didn't care in MoS is just, ugh, it's tiring to refute that argument over and over again.

It's like talking to a brick wall. :lol
 
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