McCain Shocker!

[barbelith]

So you have been held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime...

You've never been censored. Do you agree we can take the First Amendment from you or would you like to keep it around?

 

[Fubeca]

If you can figure out how it applies, sure!

Well so far you have expressed the following Marxist principles:

1. a belief that people's consciousness of the conditions of their lives reflects the dominant ideology which is in turn shaped by material conditions and relations of production
2. an understanding of class in terms of differing relations of production, and as a particular position within such relations
an understanding of material conditions and social relations as historically malleable
3. a view of history according to which class struggle, the evolving conflict between classes with opposing interests, structures each historical period and drives historical change
4. a belief that this dialectical historical process will ultimately result in a replacement of the current class structure of society with a system that manages society for the good of all, resulting in the dissolution of the class structure and its support (more often than not including the nation state)

 

[tomandshell]

There were plenty of peacful protestors at the convention. However, there were others that slashed tires, started fires, threw bricks through windows and maced delegates. I certainly hope that those are not constitutionally protected behaviors, and if anybody ever tried them against me, I hope the government would be there to protect me.

 

[barbelith]

Well so far you have expressed the following Marxist principles

So? I've also expressed capitalist principles. And in fact virtually every Republican expresses Marxist principles. Funny that. Do you have a point or are you just throwing out a buzz word?

 

[devilof76]

There is nothing arbitrary about the premises from which individual rights derive. The 17th century natural rights philosophers were unable to articulate them, the 18th century Enlightenment intellectuals had similar problems, and the 19th century classical liberal did as well. But Objectivism does not, and the concepts are fully grounded now. If there were no real connection, then the philosophy would have been an abject failure. The history of this nation speaks volumes to the contrary.

I didn't call you a racist. I pointed out you share views espoused by the Klan. Which is true. I'm sure that's one of the "politics makes strange bedfellows" things arising out of your Objectivist leanings rather than anything racially motivated.

You pointed out? You took umbrage with the fact that you were having a conversation with someone who spouts Klan rhetoric, and declared that based on that, you refused to continue the discussion. See the difference?

If a Nazi walks around talking about how taxes need to be raised on the oil companies, and you agree, is it proper for me to call you out for Nazi sympathies?

 

[metaphorge]

Standard fare for as long as I can remember. It's nothing new, and is hardly a product of the political climate under the current administration.

As a matter of fact, all of my experience with incidents like this occurred during the Clinton administration.

What seems new is the systematic effort to keep the press from being able to cover the actions being taken against the potential protesters at all by revoking media credentials, confiscating equipment, etc. This isn't just from the "potential protesters" either, but journalists from pretty mainstream sources.

This stuff does generally go on all the time, and you're right, using questionable tactics to silence protesters is also a Democratic sin, though it seems to be happening more heavily for protests aimed at the Republicans as of late... probably has the most to do with who's running the executive branch now.

(Worth stating that I have MAJOR issues with the Dems as well, but they're by far the lesser of two evils, especially with how interventionist Republican foreign polic has gotten as of late.)

 

[Fubeca]

You've never been censored. Do you agree we can take the First Amendment from you or would you like to keep it around?

Can't say that I have, lets keep all of the amendments...

 

[hoodonit00]

Of course the article fails to state that undecover police had infiltrated this group and new of some of the things they were planning including kidnapping.
To treat anarchist like they are innocent American ciitizens is a joke. And thanks for not so thinly veiled accusation of being racist. Here's a link.

https://www.twincities.com/ci_10365754

Metaphorge, what's your answer to this. Your defending anarchist who are throwing urine, and feces and chemicals on people. Is this what you consider a peaceful protest. What do you say, you threw this out quick enough.

 

[metaphorge]

There were plenty of peacful protestors at the convention. However, there were others that slashed tires, started fires, threw bricks through windows and maced delegates. I certainly hope that those are not constitutionally protected behaviors, and if anybody ever tried them against me, I hope the government would be there to protect me.

You're missing the point. These people were arrested before they had actually done anything, at people's homes, and it's unlikely there was/is much proof that they planned to engage in vandalistic behavior as you describe. The raids were a scare actic, and they were onl partially successful.

 

[tomandshell]

You're missing the point. These people were arrested before they had actually done anything, at people's homes.

If somebody is planning to throw a brick through my window or spray chemicals in my face, I would be perfectly happy for the police to detain them if they know about it in advance.

 

[Fubeca]

So? I've also expressed capitalist principles. And in fact virtually every Republican expresses Marxist principles. Funny that. Do you have a point or are you just throwing out a buzz word?

I haven't picked up on any capitalistic priniples...Not sure how Republicans express Marxist principles...And my point is you said "If you can figure out how it applies, sure!" so I am mearly showing you how the word applies...

 

[hoodonit00]

You're missing the point. These people were arrested before they had actually done anything, at people's homes, and it's unlikely there was/is much proof that they planned to engage in vandalistic behavior as you describe. The raids were a scare actic, and they were onl partially successful.

Group members discussed the possibility of kidnapping delegates, blockading bridges, using liquid sprayers filled with urine or chemicals on police and throwing marbles to trip police and their horses.

At an "action camp" held from July 31 to Aug. 3 in Lake Geneva, Minn., one member talked of concealing inside giant puppets "materials" that could be used on the street. Others discussed the need for Molotov cocktails, paint, caltrops (devices used to puncture tires), bricks and lockboxes for protesters to lock themselves together.

 

[Fubeca]

If somebody is planning to throw a brick through my window or spray chemicals in my face, I would be perfectly happy for the police to detain them if they know about it in advance.

Kinda like "Two For Flintching"

 

[hoodonit00]

You're missing the point. These people were arrested before they had actually done anything, at people's homes, and it's unlikely there was/is much proof that they planned to engage in vandalistic behavior as you describe. The raids were a scare actic, and they were onl partially successful.

So if the police know a school shooting is going to take place, they are supposed to wait till it happens before they get involved. Gotcha.

 

[hoodonit00]

When I was in my late teens early twenties I smoked a little weed. It must not have been anywhere near the quality you younguns get now for you to post some of the stuff you do.

 

[metaphorge]

Metaphorge, what's your answer to this. Your defending anarchist who are throwing urine, and feces and chemicals on people. Is this what you consider a peaceful protest. What do you say, you threw this out quick enough.

Show me some actual evidence that any of the things the investigation "learned" is true. To quote from your own link:

The main sources for the information were "regular surveillance" of the group and three people who posed as members — two informants and an undercover investigator. The informants monitored e-mails and conversations.

Geneva Finn of the National Lawyers Guild, which represents many of those arrested, said it was hard for her to weigh the evidence in the affidavit because "it's all based on the testimony of people who are not identified, and that's a real problem."

Also:

Only one person, Vernon Alexander Rodrigues, 22, of Mt. Eden, Calif., was charged with a felony, obstruction of legal process, in Monday's protest activities.

Also:

Amy Goodman, host of the independent news program "Democracy Now!," questioned Harrington about why police arrested her and two of her producers. The producers had been reporting on Monday's arrests when they were swept up in the arrests themselves, she said.

She rushed from interviews with delegates at the Xcel Energy Center when she heard the producers had been arrested and were bloodied, Goodman said. She said she asked officers why the journalists were being detained, and they arrested her.

Goodman was cited for obstructing legal process; the producers were arrested on suspicion of felony riot.

"What is your policy with the press?" Goodman asked Harrington. "How is the press to operate in this kind of environment?"

Harrington said "if there's an unlawful assembly or we're in the midst of a riot," police announce loudly that people need to leave the area.

"If reporters fail to do that, if they are in the midst of the riot, we can't protect them," he said. "It would be very difficult for us in a moment of that kind of chaos to be able to make those kind of fine distinctions."

I am going to be very surprised if any evidence actually surfaces of any of these "findings". Of course it seems some folks are quite happy to start locking everyone up merely based on suspicion with little hard evidence.

When I was in my late teens early twenties I smoked a little weed. It must not have been anywhere near the quality you younguns get now for you to post some of the stuff you do.

Ad hominem attacks are lame. Do you really assume someone has to be intoxicated in order to disagree with you, or is this just another cheap shot? It doesn't seem like most of the other pro-Palin people in this thread have to drop to that, are you just an unskilled debater who has to rely on such tactics to bolster your point?

 

[metaphorge]

To treat anarchist like they are innocent American ciitizens is a joke.

Until evidence that a crime is being committed is produced, any American citizen is an innocent American citizen, regardless of their political belief. I personally find anarchism to be an incredibly naive political philosophy, but when we start singling out people for their beliefs instead of for their actions is when we have gone too far down the merry road to fascism.

You seem to be fine with persecuting people based on their beliefs with your comments about anarchists and Muslims. Who else should we preemptively lock up? Do you think John McCain would approve of such talk?

Wow, so how about that Sarah Palin?

 

[hoodonit00]

Show me some actual evidence that any of the things the investigation "learned" is true. To quote from your own link:



Also:


Also:


I am going to be very surprised if any evidence actually surfaces of any of these "findings". Of course it seems some folks are quite happy to start locking everyone up merely based on suspicion with little hard evidence.



Ad hominem attacks are lame. Do you really assume someone has to be intoxicated in order to disagree with you, or is this just another cheap shot? It doesn't seem like most of the other pro-Palin people in this thread have to drop to that, are you just an unskilled debater who has to rely on such tactics to bolster your point?

I provided a link. Your response is that the cops are lying and the charges won't stick because the undercover cops don't want to blow their cover. If you can't believe that the cops found something then I guess there is nothing to debate. The weed thing is in jest because of things I've read in this whole thread and from you who seems to be supporting the anarchist. The liberal, pacifist, anti-government feel of this thread just shocks me.

 

[metaphorge]

I provided a link. Your response is that the cops are lying and the charges won't stick because the undercover cops don't want to blow their cover. If you can't believe that the cops found something then I guess there is nothing to debate. The weed thing is in jest because of things I've read in this whole thread and from you who seems to be supporting the anarchist. The liberal, pacifist, anti-government feel of this thread just shocks me.

You asked me for a response, and I gave it to you.

It's my opinion the whole bit in Minneapolis was an attempt to scare people out of exercising their right to speak out by using scare tactics, and it was partially, but not completely, successful.

I don't see why the attitudes in this thread shock you; public opinion polls make it pretty clear that many Americans are fed up with George Bush and the needless quagmire he's gotten us into in Iraq, and are seeking the quickest way to get our people out without leaving a total disaster in our wake.

Slightly off-topic: so what the hell do you collect, anyway? Is "hoodonit00" an alias for some other Freak who wants to keep their political opinion separate from their collecting?

 

[hoodonit00]

Until evidence that a crime is being committed is produced, any American citizen is an innocent American citizen, regardless of their political belief. I personally find anarchism to be an incredibly naive political philosophy, but when we start singling out people for their beliefs instead of for their actions is when we have gone too far down the merry road to fascism.

You seem to be fine with persecuting people based on their beliefs with your comments about anarchists and Muslims. Who else should we preemptively lock up? Do you think John McCain would approve of such talk?

Wow, so how about that Sarah Palin?

So your saying that through wiretapping, the CIA picks up solid evidence that a Muslim Extremist is going to drive a car bomb through a marathon that they shouldn' try to detain him until he is in the process of doing it. And yes. I don't care if someone is black, white, asian, muslime, hindu, christian. If the police have a pretty good lead that they are up to something illegal then I think the police have grounds to stop it.