Media Metal Gear Solid Discussion Thread (NO FIGURES /CUSTOMS JUST GAMES) SPOILERS

[RIDDICK]

What about The Sorrow's ghost in MGS 3?

Cool concept, but absolutely unfittin' for the franchise. Seriously, I can bend my suspension of disbelief when it comes to somewhat grounded superhuman abilities, but... they had a guy who could bring dead to his aid? Really??? Pfffff!

Even Raven in MGS 1 had some supernatural abilities, like his control over crows

Well, I could see that as just another kind of telepathy (same with The Pain). But...

or how he spoke to Snake shortly after his death.

... that bit, along with the body disappearance, made it clear some supernatural BS took place.

 

[pturtle]

Riddick is kicking knowledge!

 

[ronri]

I like the supernatural stuff, I'm glad they kept that with Mantis and Volgin in TPP but the whole Liquid arm thing just screamed like lazy writing to me.

I know people didn't like Volgin in TPP much but the arm thing is practically on the same level of ridiculous if not more so because come on... it's an ARM.

If things stayed the way it did from MGS2, an arm would have literally been running the show as the main villain for MGS4. I'd take the experimented comatose demon Volgin (who already possessed electric powers and unnatural strength/durability to begin with) living on through his sheer desire for vengeance towards Big Boss any day than Snake's arch-nemesis come back to life through an arm because "supernatural, yeah!"

I'm sorry to anyone who liked the idea, but it was just that dumb.

 

[Solidus]

I think Ocelot was too overused. Regardless of his role in MGS 2, he was delegated to a minor character, which was no different to how he was in MGS 1. It would've been better if died in a firefight with the RAY he stole, instead of having him become the series' main player, pulling the strings as a double-agent, triple-agent, quadruple-agent - whose motivations are never fully explained, except that he had a huge man-crush on Big Boss for no reason at all.

Resurrecting Volgin was pretty absurd, if you ask me. He didn't even fight Big Boss, just his doppelganger. I mean, even the Peace Walker AI recognized that Venom Snake wasn't the real deal. But, Volgin, who came back from the dead, and had all of these superpowers couldn't?

 

[GasparZizou]

That's because he was being used by Mantis, once Mantis found a better vessel, he dumped Volgin, he wasn't really in charge of himself.

Many characters were misused for sure, but I'd say for having been used "on the run" in an "unplanned" franchise, they could've turned out way worse.

I wonder how the series would've turned out if Kojima had planned the franchise in advance since MGS1.

Btw, does anyone have a screenshot of the timeline shown in MGS4? I read somewhere that supposedly there are two ? marks where PW and MGSV take place in the timeline, and I didn't even remember there was a timeline shown in MGS4

 

[ronri]

I think Ocelot was too overused. Regardless of his role in MGS 2, he was delegated to a minor character, which was no different to how he was in MGS 1. It would've been better if died in a firefight with the RAY he stole, instead of having him become the series' main player, pulling the strings as a double-agent, triple-agent, quadruple-agent - whose motivations are never fully explained, except that he had a huge man-crush on Big Boss for no reason at all.

Ehh, I'd rather Kojima used him the way he did than turning him into a one-note character. Also his man-crush for Big Boss actually was pretty well characterized in MGS3 considering how he got schooled by Big Boss yet was still respected enough by him to let him live and teach him how to improve himself. It was a gradual development that progressed as MGS3 unfolded, so I'd hardly call that as being "no reason at all".

Resurrecting Volgin was pretty absurd, if you ask me. He didn't even fight Big Boss, just his doppelganger. I mean, even the Peace Walker AI recognized that Venom Snake wasn't the real deal, but Volgin, who had all of these superpowers couldn't?

Just like the arm, except the arm can talk through Ocelot because it's "supernatural", oh and it has Cam Clarke's voice because of nostalgia, I think.

Volgin couldn't even talk, he was comatose, experimented on by Soviet scientists, though he still clinged to life and was just driven by nothing but instinctual drive. He was hardly functional and just went on a mindless rampage, so comparing it to the Peace Walker AI's ability to recognize between the two BBs is hardly something to make fun about. You're seriously comparing the cognitive abilities of the comatose Volgin over Strangelove's super AI of The Boss which was based on BB's very own "beloved"?

Also Volgin did end up recognizing that it wasn't BB in the end after Mantis left him, and his role being relegated to being a minor one suited the "TV series" style of TPP's eclectic narrative (however flawed it was).

 

[Solidus]

That's because he was being used by Mantis, once Mantis found a better vessel, he dumped Volgin, he wasn't really in charge of himself.

Many characters were misused for sure, but I'd say for having been used "on the run" in an "unplanned" franchise, they could've turned out way worse.

I wonder how the series would've turned out if Kojima had planned the franchise in advance since MGS1.

Btw, does anyone have a screenshot of the timeline shown in MGS4? I read somewhere that supposedly there are two ? marks where PW and MGSV take place in the timeline, and I didn't even remember there was a timeline shown in MGS4

Mantis wasn't using Volgin in MGS V, it was the other way around. Listen back to the tapes. Everyone was leeching off of Mantis' powers, from Big Boss, to Skull Face, to Eli. Depending on who took advantage of Mantis, there'd be subtle changes to his appearance. Like with Big Boss, a horn would appear on Mantis' head. And if it were Eli, Mantis' shirt would have an identical red shoulder patch.

If you think about it, MGS 1 is actually a self-contained story. Even the revelation that the President helped to orchestrate the Shadow Moses incident, falls in line the theme that everyone's being used by some other ass hole with a higher rank than them. For Snake, it was Campbell, and for Campbell it was the President.

Ehh, I'd rather Kojima used him the way he did than turning him into a one-note character. Also his man-crush for Big Boss actually was pretty well characterized in MGS3 considering how he got schooled by Big Boss yet was still respected enough by him to let him live and teach him how to improve himself. It was a gradual development that progressed as MGS3 unfolded, so I'd hardly call that as being "no reason at all".



Just like the arm, except the arm can talk through Ocelot because it's "supernatural", oh and it has Cam Clarke's voice because of nostalgia, I think.

Volgin couldn't even talk, he was comatose, experimented on by Soviet scientists, though he still clinged to life and was just driven by nothing but instinctual drive. He was hardly functional and just went on a mindless rampage. so comparing it to the Peace Walker AI's ability to recognize between the two BBs is hardly something to make fun about. You're seriously comparing the cognitive abilities of the comatose Volgin over Strangelove's super AI of The Boss which was based on BB's very own "beloved"?

Also Volgin did end up recognizing that it wasn't BB in the end after Mantis left him, and his role being relegated to being a minor one suited the "TV series" style of TPP's eclectic narrative (however flawed it was).

Call it mindless if you want, but Volgin was just like every other character in MGS who was going after revenge. I don't think there's any reason to assume that there wasn't some form of advanced cognition behind his actions, and just because he went on a rampage isn't enough evidence that proves otherwise. Remember when Venom Snake was escaping from the hospital with Ocelot on the horse? Volgin used Mantis to animate an identical horse on fire to chase them down. Also, Volgin was pretty unhinged and crazy in MGS 3, so why wouldn't he be like that again in MGS V?

The Peace Walker AI, on the other hand, was just a re-creation of The Boss... but it was able to sense and recognize Venom Snake as a doppleganger. Volgin, who was technically still alive, couldn't even do that.

 

[GasparZizou]

Mantis wasn't using Volgin in MGS V, it was the other way around. Listen back to the tapes. Everyone was leeching off of Mantis' powers, from Big Boss, to Skull Face, to Eli. Depending on who took advantage of Mantis, there'd be subtle changes to his appearance. Like with Big Boss, a horn would appear on Mantis' head. And if it were Eli, Mantis' shirt would have an identical red shoulder patch.

If you think about it, MGS 1 is actually a self-contained story. Even the revelation that the President helped to orchestrate the Shadow Moses incident, falls in line the theme that everyone's being used by some other ass hole with a higher rank than them. For Snake, it was Campbell, and for Campbell it was the President.

It was the other way around Mantis was feeding off the negative emotions of said characters, and Mantis was in control, hence why Eli was acting "strange", but it was a bilateral relationship, they even said he was "parasitizing" their feelings of revenge.

Well, the series was going to be like this from the beginning, almost every game had a character twist at some point, starting from MG1, so I suppose, with that in mind you could say MGS1 is pretty self contained.

 

[ronri]

Call if mindless if you want, but Volgin was just like every other character in MGS who was going after revenge. I don't think there's any reason to assume that there wasn't some form of advanced cognition behind his actions, and just because he went on a rampage isn't enough evidence that proves otherwise. Volgin was pretty unhinged and crazy in MGS 3, so why wouldn't he be like that again in MGS V? The Peace Walker AI, on the other hand, was just a re-creation of The Boss... but it was able to sense and recognize Venom Snake as a doppleganger. Volgin, who was technically still alive, couldn't even do that.

Volgin couldn't even recognize Big Boss in his own boss fight when you put on Raikov's mask and you think he'd be able to tell between Venom and BB in that state?

 

[Dylan]

Btw, does anyone have a screenshot of the timeline shown in MGS4? I read somewhere that supposedly there are two ? marks where PW and MGSV take place in the timeline, and I didn't even remember there was a timeline shown in MGS4

It's when talking to Big Boss or Eva I can't remember exactly. It was for Peace Walker and Rising when that was still a Konami made game. It really makes no sense tho because they both appear after MGS4

 

[GasparZizou]

It's at the end when talking to Big Boss. It was for Peace Walker and Rising when that was still a Konami made game. It really makes no sense tho because they both appear after MGS4

Oh, so it isn't a timeline.

 

[Solidus]

It was the other way around Mantis was feeding off the negative emotions of said characters, and Mantis was in control, hence why Eli was acting "strange", but it was a bilateral relationship, they even said he was "parasitizing" their feelings of revenge.

Well, the series was going to be like this from the beginning, almost every game had a character twist at some point, starting from MG1, so I suppose, with that in mind you could say MGS1 is pretty self contained.

Mantis didn't have a motive for his actions in MGS V. He wasn't controlling the Man on Fire to kill Venom Snake, and he didn't help Venom Snake by animating a whale in the sky to swallow the XOF chopper. Why would he act so contrary? From the way I understood it, Mantis formed a bond with Eli because they were both kids. Mantis chose to help him out in the end where he removed Eli's vocal chord parsites, and fly him off of the Island.

It's practically explained in MGS 1 that he wears his gas mask to prevent people's thoughts from entering his mind. It didn't really seem to do any good in MGS V, though...

Volgin couldn't even recognize Big Boss in his own boss fight when you put on Raikov's mask and you think he'd be able to tell between Venom and BB in that state?

And in turn, I'll reference the scene where Volgin knew something wasn't right and grabbed Naked Snake's crotch .

 

[ronri]

And in turn, I'll reference the scene where Volgin knew something wasn't right and grabbed Naked Snake's crotch .

He can still get fooled the 2nd time during the boss fight though. Also unlike Raikov, he didn't have the advantage of being able to distinguish Venom through his crotch.

Anyway the point is, Volgin was never the brightest person in MGS3, so comparing him to Strangelove's AI re-creation of The Boss (which is no easy feat!) is something that I can't really fault him for. This isn't to say that I feel that he was used pretty effectively. He was cool as a rampaging monster but sadly underutilized, which in turn, was the result of Skull Face lacking characterization as the bad guy who later uses him overall. That said, the idea and general plot of his "return" as a nigh-unstoppable monster is still something I can tolerate more than Liquid's arm becoming the Big Bad of MGS4.

 

[pturtle]

Yup Mantis was using Volgin, which is why he eventually lets him get squashed after he finds out Liquid has more lust for revenge

 

[ronri]

Yup Mantis was using Volgin, which is why he eventually lets him get squashed after he finds out Liquid has more list for revenge

 

[pturtle]

 

[RIDDICK]

WhoooooooooOOOOooooOOOOoooOOOOoooo???!?!?!?!?

 

[ronri]

I liked Skull Face, just wish he stayed long enough for me to actually feel Kojima's intended effect of a "phantom pain" instead of just thinking that he was kinda just there.

Also he desperately needed Venom to actually interact with him.

 

[pturtle]

Totally agree, he was set up perfectly in Ground Zeroes. I think venom saids only one sentence to him the entire game.

 

[Solidus]