NFL Thread

[DinoDB1975]

The Randy Moss thing has been over-reported to hell, and I'm guilty of posting stuff about it on this thread, but I still think Childress f'ed the pooch. Reports are that Childress didn't even inform upper management about the release of Moss.

"Childress was asked how he would compensate for Moss' departure on the field.

"We've got Hank Baskett," Childress said, referring to a player with six catches with three teams over the past three seasons. "We'll elevate his turns and get him in the mix."

Really...Hank Baskett will easily fill Moss's shoes.

 

[Grenouille]

I'm sure Percy Harvin win be happy to have Hank opening things up for him the way Moss did.

 

[sprig0701]

I'm pretty sure Chilly has solitified his getting ____-canned after this season ... if he even makes it that long.

 

[OSCORP]

I hope so!

 

[sprig0701]

I don't claim to be a Vikings fan, but from what I've seen of that franchise in the past couple of years I liked Tice a hell of a lot better than Chilly. Unfortunately for Tice, the love boat incident occurred under his watch.

 

[DinoDB1975]

Yup, and the Superbowl ticket scalping fiasco as well.

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

I'm pretty sure Chilly has solitified his getting ____-canned after this season ... if he even makes it that long.

I'm sure the vikes will clean house at the end of the year

 

[cokebabies]

I'm sure the vikes will clean house at the end of the year

Favre will be back.

 

[OSCORP]

I dunno if they will clean house. I hope chilly is gone. Who knows, if chilly is gone Favre may come back AGAIN.

 

[karamazov80]

I saw the NFL network chose Jerry Rice as the greatest NFL player ever. I can't disagree with that one, honestly. But I can disagree with making Peyton Manning number 8. Gimme a freakin' break. Just barely below Joe Montana, and well above John Elway.

 

[wofford29]

Peyton Manning is better than Elway.

 

[cokebabies]

Yup.

Honestly, when he retires, Manning will go down as the greatest QB in NFL history.

 

[Grenouille]

Yup.

Honestly, when he retires, Manning will go down as the greatest QB in NFL history.

Not named Tom Brady or Joe Montana.

The overall Top 100 was okay, but had some real head scratchers. Anothony Munoz at #12? Great OT, but the 12th best player in NFL history?

Rice at #1 has a strong case though, he holds some pretty untouchable records.

 

[cokebabies]

Not named Tom Brady or Joe Montana.

Montana you'd have a harder time arguing against, but I still think better than both, especially Brady.

Manning's career stats are better than Brady's, and that's not even counting the teams themselves. Brady started with a team that was already ready to win, and very well coached. Manning came to an absolutely terrible team.

Manning's football intellect is just otherworldly. I think what might hurt Manning's reputation is that he is just SO smart when it comes to the game that he makes things look so easy, and less dramatic... therefore not as "impressive". The only thing I could conceive of people arguing against Manning is "only" having one ring. But the ring argument, in any sport, is futile because while a great player can elevate a team, he can't do everything.

If both players' paces continue, Manning and Brady will no doubt be the best two QBs of their generation, but Manning will prove to be better.


And as far as those rankings go, I don't have too many problems. I'm surprised at the omission of Jim Kelly, though.

 

[Grenouille]

Montana you'd have a harder time arguing against, but I still think better than both, especially Brady.

Manning's career stats are better than Brady's, and that's not even counting the teams themselves. Brady started with a team that was already ready to win, and very well coached. Manning came to an absolutely terrible team.

Manning's football intellect is just otherworldly. I think what might hurt Manning's reputation is that he is just SO smart when it comes to the game that he makes things look so easy, and less dramatic... therefore not as "impressive". The only thing I could conceive of people arguing against Manning is "only" having one ring. But the ring argument, in any sport, is futile because while a great player can elevate a team, he can't do everything.

If both players' paces continue, Manning and Brady will no doubt be the best two QBs of their generation, but Manning will prove to be better.


And as far as those rankings go, I don't have too many problems. I'm surprised at the omission of Jim Kelly, though.

Of course he has better stats, Manning has 4 full years on Brady including the injury lost '08 season. When 2001 began the Patriots were anything but "ready to win". Lots of luck and an arcane rule helped start the ball rolling.

Fair or not rings will be a part of the discussion, and Manning save for one year has not been his best when it counts the most. This isn't to say that he isn't one of the greatest QBs of all time though. Sometimes it just seems that the media is too effusive in their praise of him.

I agree on Kelly, but again fair or not, the ring count is 0.

 

[karamazov80]

Peyton Manning is better than Elway.

Yup.

Honestly, when he retires, Manning will go down as the greatest QB in NFL history.

I agree, if after the end of your posts you add ". . .in the regular season."

Personally, I think Superbowl wins are a significant factor, and Manning has shown, as great and consistent as he is during the regular season, that he hasn't been able to really turn it on when it counts most. He's got 1 SB ring of course, and football is a team sport. But when you are playing the most important position on the team and are in that discussion of "great all time" players, Superbowl wins have to matter.

Now you've got to account for the teams who win despite their QBs, of course. Guys shouldn't get too much credit for that stat alone. But Manning has had the supporting personnel to do more than he has over the last decade IMO, and when put up against another team with a QB that seemed to want it more, couldn't pull out the win (Brady, Brees, even Rivers). Put Brady or Elway on those Colts teams, and I bet you would see more rings on Colts' fingers.

 

[Grenouille]

Let's also not forget that Bill Polian, Mr.head of the competition committee has had the rules changed over the years to favor the Colts schemes and overall game plans.

 

[karamazov80]

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but certainly the league has changed to favor scoring--i.e. protecting, arguably excessively protecting the QB at all costs, and now, moving to do the same for wide receivers because of the concussion issue. As such, it would have been much more difficult for a Peyton Manning to succeed in Johnny Unitas's day than it is now.

 

[user 1190]

Let's also not forget that Bill Polian, Mr.head of the competition committee has had the rules changed over the years to favor the Colts schemes and overall game plans.

Really, I am pretty sure the Colts hate the new UMP position.

 

[cokebabies]

Bringing the 'different eras and/or systems' into it makes the discussion that much more difficult. It's like asking "Is Sawchuck a better goalie than Roy, since Sawchuck didn't have the luxury of a mask and proper protection?" Physically, most QBs would have a tough time in Unitas' day, but I also think Unitas would have a tough time in the modern NFL's system.

As for Brady having less years than Manning, I'm not referring to simple number stats that accumulate per season, but stats that don't necessarily take number of years into account... Completion percentage, YPA, TD/INT ratio, QB rating, etc.

And I agree that at the beginning of the 01 season, no one was picking the Pats. I didn't mean "ready to win a SB", just ready to be above .500. Compared to the Colts, who, well... there's a reason Manning was the #1. The Colts were terrible.

But right now, you could make an argument for either QB as best current QB. I'm going with Manning, but if someone was to go with Brady, there's only so much you can argue with his success.

And the "Manning in the playoffs" argument is a theory that's just not there, statistically. I'll give you that there might be some sort of intangible next-level thing a QB can do in the playoffs that doesn't show up on the scoresheet, but there's only so far that argument will take you.

Manning in the playoffs: 435/692 (63%) for 5164yds, 29TD's, 18INT (1.6 TD/INT ratio), 7.5ypa, 88 passer rating for his career in the playoffs.

Manning regular season career: 64.5% passer, 2:1 TD:INT ratio, 7.8ypa, 95.5 rating. Considering that the playoffs he is playing elite teams, as opposed to the regular season where he gets very weak defenses to pad stats (like every QB does), that the weather is often colder in the playoffs, his stats aren't really that different. He's 1% less accurate, throws basically the same # of YPA, and the difference i passer rating is negligible, as it comes from the TD/INT ratio.

For a good, quick Manning vs. Brady in the playoffs:
https://www.faniq.com/blog/Peyton-Manning-is-slightly-superior-playoff-QB-than-Tom-Brady-Blog-36420

And for potential "higher than Manning due to playoff heroics":

John Elway playoff - 355/651 (54.5%) for 4964yds, 27TD, 21INT, 7.6 YPA, 79.7 rating
Dan Marino -385/687 (56.0%), 4510yds, 32TD, 24INT, 6.5 YPA, 77,1 rating
Joe Montana - 460/734 (62.7%) for 5772yds, 45TD 21INT, 7.9 YPA, 95.6 rating
Steve Young -292/471 (62.0%) for 3326yds, 20TD, 13INT, 7.0 YPA, 85.8 rating

The only one who stands above is Montana, and I will never argue that Montana wasn't ridiculous in the playoffs. But having the number one ranked player ever to pass to is a luxury that none of the other candidates came close to having.

edit: jeez, that's a long post. I normally don't like to get into x vs. x or stat nonsense, I guess I had it bottled up.