NFL Thread

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

Was Barry Sanders overrated? He never won a thing at the end of the season, heck I don't think he never played a playoff game.

As for the Pats having all-time great teams, what evidence do you have? Cassel playing well that one year?

18-0 is pretty good evidence if you ask me. Oh and the fact that Cassel, who hadn't started a football game since HIGH SCHOOL took that team for a ride is another.

 

[karamazov80]

Who was QB when they went 18-0? And what does it matter when Cassel played before? He was ready to play and played well. Kurt Warner was bagging groceries before getting to the NFL.

Running backs can't impact a game like a QB, and that's why they usually aren't in the running to be considered the best of the best. The greatest NFL player ever, if we are to treat all positions the same, is probably some O-lineman or Ray Guy, but just like point guards have less of an impact in NBA, RBs have less in the NFL, and it takes a true freak like Jerry Rice to overcome the trappings of his position to deserve a number 1 all time ranking.

 

[jstep13]

I'm not gonna spend all night compiling a list, but you can find plenty of names on that one of guys who succeeded more when it mattered. In terms of QBs, Brady and Montana are easily ahead of him, and he's probably on par with Fran Tarkenten (a great player who never won a championship), Marino, and John Elway, to name a few. Hell, I might even put Kurt Warner up there with him. Warner played in more Superbowls, and played well enough to win all of them (the rest of his team just didn't step up).

What it all comes down to is how important you figure the regular season is. We've actually had this discussion, oh, about 7,000 pages back. Michael Jordan isn't the greatest player in NBA history because of his regular season stats.

LMAO "I'm not gonna spend all night compiling a list..." = no argument

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

LMAO "I'm not gonna spend all night compiling a list..." = no argument

I laughed too but let it slide

 

[karamazov80]

Well, you're sure making some constructive, useful contributions here jstep

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

Running backs can't impact a game like a QB, and that's why they usually aren't in the running to be considered the best of the best.

Guess you missed this play

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BIP0FS1EV8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BIP0FS1EV8[/ame]

 

[karamazov80]

So, running backs have the same impact on the game as QBs? That's your argument?

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

I guess what I'm struggling to understand is how you call a player who has set these records:


Regular season

Highest passer rating, season: 121.1 (2004)[216]
Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards: 11 (1999–2004, 2006–2010)[217]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards: 6 (1999–2004)[3]
Most pass completions in a season: 450 (2010)[218]
Most games with 40+ pass attempts in a season: 10 (2010)[219]
Most games with 30+ pass completions in a season: 6 (2010; tied with Kurt Warner and Rich Gannon)[220]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 20 touchdown passes: 13 (1998–2010; current) [44]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes: 13 (1998–2010; current)[217]
Most games with a perfect passer rating, career: 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[95]
Most consecutive games started to open a career: 208 [221][44]
Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[222]
Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes: 5 (games 7–11, 2004)[216]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes, season: 6 (2004; tied with 1984 Marino)[216]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes, career: 24 (includes 2 playoff games; tied with Brett Favre)[223]
Most games with at least 5 touchdown passes, career: 7 (includes 1 playoff game)[224]
Most games with at least 5 touchdown passes and no interceptions, career: 4 (tied with Tom Brady)
One of only seven QBs with at least 6 touchdown passes in two games (tied with Sammy Baugh, Y.A. Tittle, Daryle Lamonica, Tom Brady, Charley Johnson and George Blanda)[225]
One of only two QBs with at least 6 touchdown passes and no interceptions in two games (tied with Tom Brady)
Most regular games with at least 300 passing yards: 63 (tied with Dan Marino)
Most regular and postseason games with at least 300 passing yards: 71
Most games with at least 400 yards passing and no interceptions: 4
Most career touchdown passes in Thursday games: 25[226]
Most touchdown passes on a Thursday game: 6 (tied with Bob Griese)
Largest career TD-INT differential: 201
Highest career passing TDs/game average (min. 150 TD passes): 1.91 TDs/game[44]
Highest career passing yards/game average: 263.6[227]
Second-Highest career completions/game average (min. 100 games played): 22.5[228]
Most consecutive games with a passer rating over 100: 9 (games 5–13 of 2004 season; record tied by Carson Palmer, 2004–05 and Tom Brady, 2006–07)[229]
Highest completion percentage by a QB in one month in NFL history (min. 75 attempts): 81.8% (December 2008) [44]
Most career games with a completion percentage of 70% or higher (min. 10 attempts): 66[230]
Most consecutive regular season wins as a starter: 23 (2008–2009)
Most seasons with 10+ wins as a starter (regular season only): 11 (1999–2000, 2002–2010)
Most seasons with 12+ wins as a starter (regular season only): 8 (1999, 2003–2009)
Only QB with at least 12 wins as a starter in 7 consecutive seasons (2003–2009)[231]
Only QB with nine straight seasons of 10+ wins as a starter (2002–2010)[44]
Only QB to lead five consecutive 4th quarter comeback wins (games 7–11, 2009)[232]
Most fourth quarter comeback wins in one season: 7 (2009)[233]
First QB to defeat the other 31 teams in the regular season (Tom Brady did this later the same day, and Brett Favre did it the following week)[234]
Most wins as a starting QB in a decade, regular season only: 115 (2000s)[162]
Most wins as a starting QB in a decade, regular & postseason: 124 (2000s)
Most AP NFL MVP Awards: 4 (2003, 2004, 2008, 2009)[1]
Most Touchdown Passes in a decade: 314 (2000–2009)
Most Passing Yards in a decade: 42,254 (2000–2009)
Most Completions in a decade: 3,575 (2000–2009)

Playoff records

Most 300+ yard passing games: 8 [235]
Most 400+ yard passing games: 2 (tied with Dan Marino)[236]
Most yards passing, 1st half of game: 360 vs. Denver Broncos, 1/9/05[237]
Led the biggest comeback in conference championship game history (18 pts), 1/21/07 vs. New England[238]
One of only four QBs to post a perfect 158.3 passer rating in a game (Don Meredith, Terry Bradshaw, Dave Krieg)[239]
Most games with 20+ completions: 14[240]
Most games with 30+ completions: 4[241]
Most games with 30+ attempts: 17[242]
Most games with 40+ attempts: 8[243]
Most completions and attempts in a single postseason: 97/153 (2006)[244]
One of only 2 quarterbacks to complete 80% of his passes in two playoff games (tied with Kurt Warner)[245]
Most consecutive postseasons with at least one start: 9 (2002–2010)

Rookie records

Most passing attempts: 575[246] (surpassed by Sam Bradford in 2010)
Most completions: 326 (surpassed by Sam Bradford in 2010)[216]
Most passing yards: 3,739[216]
Most touchdown passes: 26[216]
Most consecutive games with a touchdown pass (games 4–16): 13[246]
Most games with at least one touchdown pass: 15 [44]
Most games with 300+ yards passing: 4 [44]
Most passing yards in week 1 debut: 302 vs. Miami Dolphins on 9/6/1998 (surpassed by Cam Newton in 2011)[247]

With Marvin Harrison

Manning and former Colts wide receiver Marvin Harrison hold a number of QB-WR tandem records:

Most completions/receptions (career): 953[248]
Most passing/receiving yards (career): 12,756[248]
Most passing/receiving touchdowns (career): 112[44][248]
Most completions/receptions in a season, QB-to-WR duo: 143 (2002)
Most passing/receiving yards in a season, QB-to-WR duo: 1,722 (2002)

Pro Bowl records

Most Pro Bowl selections for a QB: 11 (tied with Brett Favre)[249]
Most consecutive Pro Bowl selections for a QB: 9 (following the 2002-2010 seasons)
Most passing attempts (career): 150[106]
Most passing attempts (game): 41 (2004)[250]
Most completions (career): 92[106]
Most completions (game): 22 (2004)[250]
Most passing yards (career): 1,278[106]
Most passing yards (game): 342 (2004)[250]
Most passing touchdowns (career): 13[106]

Colts franchise records

Most passing attempts (career): 7,210[43]
Most passing attempts (season): 679 (2010)[43]
Most passing attempts (rookie season): 575 (1998)[43]
Most 40+ passing attempt games (career): 56[43]
Most completions (career): 4,682[43]
Most completions (season): 450 (2010)[43]
Most completions (rookie season): 326 (1998)[43]
Most completions (game): 40 (09/12/10 at Houston)[43]
Most completions (rookie game): 30 (11/01/98 vs. New England)[43]
Most consecutive completions: 23 (12/14/08-12/18/08 vs. Detroit/Jacksonville)[44]
Most games with 20+ completions (career): 140[43]
Most consecutive games with 20+ completions: 14 (games 1–14, 2010)[43]
Most games with 30+ completions (career): 23[251]
Highest completion percentage (career): 64.9%[43]
Highest completion percentage (season): 68.8% (2009)[43]
Highest completion percentage (rookie season): 56.7%[43]
Highest completion percentage (game): 87.5% (14/16 for 95 yards, 12/30/07 vs. Tennessee)[44]
Most passing yards (career): 54,828[252]
Most passing yards (season): 4,700 (2010)[43]
Most passing yards (rookie season): 3,739[43]
Most passing yards (game): 472 (10/31/04 vs. Kansas City)[43]
Most 300+ passing yard games (career): 63[43]
Most 300+ passing yard games (season): 9 (2009)[43]
Most 300+ passing yard games (rookie season): 4[43]
Most consecutive passing 300+ yard games: 5 (games 1–5 in 2009)[43]
Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards : 11 (1999–2004, 2006–2010)[217]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004): 6[3]
Most touchdown passes (career): 399[5]
Most touchdown passes (season): 49 (2004)[43]
Most touchdown passes (rookie season): 26[43]

Most touchdown passes (game): 6 (09/28/03 vs. New Orleans and 11/25/04 vs. Detroit)[43]
Most touchdown passes (rookie game): 3 (4 times; tied with Johnny Unitas and Jeff George)[43]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (career): 22[253]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (season, 2004): 6[216]
Most games with at least 3 touchdown passes (career): 64[43]
Most games with at least 1 touchdown pass (season): 15 (5 times)[43]
Most games with at least 1 touchdown pass (rookie season): 15 (1998)[43]
Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes (games 7–11, 2004): 5 (2004)[216]
Most consecutive games with at least 3 touchdown passes : 8 (games 5–12, 2004)[254]
Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[43]
Most consecutive games with at least 1 touchdown pass (rookie season): 13 (games 4–16)[43]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes : 13 (1998–2010, current)[217]
Highest touchdown percentage (career): 5.66%[43]
Highest touchdown percentage (season): 9.86% (2004)[43]
Highest touchdown percentage (game): 24.00% (09/28/03 vs. New Orleans)[43]
Most interceptions thrown (game): 6 (11/11/07 vs. San Diego)[43]
Most interceptions thrown (season): 28 (1998)[43]
Highest passer rating (career): 94.9[43]
Highest passer rating (season): 121.1 (2004)[43]
Most games with a perfect passer rating (career): 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[95]
Most consecutive games started to open a career by a quarterback: 208 (current)[255]
Most games played, franchise history: 208
Most consecutive games started, franchise history: 208 (current)[255]
Most comeback wins in the 4th quarter (career): 35 (includes one playoff game) [43]
Most comeback wins in the 4th quarter (season): 7 (2009) [43]
Most game-winning drives in the 4th quarter/overtime (career): 46 (includes one playoff game) [43]
Most game-winning drives in the 4th quarter/overtime (season): 7 (1999, 2008, 2009)[43]

..'overrated'?

Peyton is also Super Bowl Champion, though you seem to only be focusing on the times he's fallen short.

So, running backs have the same impact on the game as QBs? That's your argument?

No, my argument is that any player on the field can dramatically impact the game on any given Sunday.

 

[NosferatuBill36]

Well, I've seen every playoff game Manning's lost, and he's played significantly less well than he has in the regular season. That's not what "top 10 all-time great players" do. Oscar Robertson was one of the most insanely talented NBA players ever, but he only won one title, so he isn't considered near the top of the all-time greats list.

But he is.

 

[BadMoon]

Wow! Glad I stayed up a bit.

 

[NosferatuBill36]

I guess what I'm struggling to understand is how you call a player who has set these records:


Regular season

Highest passer rating, season: 121.1 (2004)[216]
Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards: 11 (1999–2004, 2006–2010)[217]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards: 6 (1999–2004)[3]
Most pass completions in a season: 450 (2010)[218]
Most games with 40+ pass attempts in a season: 10 (2010)[219]
Most games with 30+ pass completions in a season: 6 (2010; tied with Kurt Warner and Rich Gannon)[220]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 20 touchdown passes: 13 (1998–2010; current) [44]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes: 13 (1998–2010; current)[217]
Most games with a perfect passer rating, career: 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[95]
Most consecutive games started to open a career: 208 [221][44]
Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[222]
Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes: 5 (games 7–11, 2004)[216]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes, season: 6 (2004; tied with 1984 Marino)[216]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes, career: 24 (includes 2 playoff games; tied with Brett Favre)[223]
Most games with at least 5 touchdown passes, career: 7 (includes 1 playoff game)[224]
Most games with at least 5 touchdown passes and no interceptions, career: 4 (tied with Tom Brady)
One of only seven QBs with at least 6 touchdown passes in two games (tied with Sammy Baugh, Y.A. Tittle, Daryle Lamonica, Tom Brady, Charley Johnson and George Blanda)[225]
One of only two QBs with at least 6 touchdown passes and no interceptions in two games (tied with Tom Brady)
Most regular games with at least 300 passing yards: 63 (tied with Dan Marino)
Most regular and postseason games with at least 300 passing yards: 71
Most games with at least 400 yards passing and no interceptions: 4
Most career touchdown passes in Thursday games: 25[226]
Most touchdown passes on a Thursday game: 6 (tied with Bob Griese)
Largest career TD-INT differential: 201
Highest career passing TDs/game average (min. 150 TD passes): 1.91 TDs/game[44]
Highest career passing yards/game average: 263.6[227]
Second-Highest career completions/game average (min. 100 games played): 22.5[228]
Most consecutive games with a passer rating over 100: 9 (games 5–13 of 2004 season; record tied by Carson Palmer, 2004–05 and Tom Brady, 2006–07)[229]
Highest completion percentage by a QB in one month in NFL history (min. 75 attempts): 81.8% (December 2008) [44]
Most career games with a completion percentage of 70% or higher (min. 10 attempts): 66[230]
Most consecutive regular season wins as a starter: 23 (2008–2009)
Most seasons with 10+ wins as a starter (regular season only): 11 (1999–2000, 2002–2010)
Most seasons with 12+ wins as a starter (regular season only): 8 (1999, 2003–2009)
Only QB with at least 12 wins as a starter in 7 consecutive seasons (2003–2009)[231]
Only QB with nine straight seasons of 10+ wins as a starter (2002–2010)[44]
Only QB to lead five consecutive 4th quarter comeback wins (games 7–11, 2009)[232]
Most fourth quarter comeback wins in one season: 7 (2009)[233]
First QB to defeat the other 31 teams in the regular season (Tom Brady did this later the same day, and Brett Favre did it the following week)[234]
Most wins as a starting QB in a decade, regular season only: 115 (2000s)[162]
Most wins as a starting QB in a decade, regular & postseason: 124 (2000s)
Most AP NFL MVP Awards: 4 (2003, 2004, 2008, 2009)[1]
Most Touchdown Passes in a decade: 314 (2000–2009)
Most Passing Yards in a decade: 42,254 (2000–2009)
Most Completions in a decade: 3,575 (2000–2009)

Playoff records

Most 300+ yard passing games: 8 [235]
Most 400+ yard passing games: 2 (tied with Dan Marino)[236]
Most yards passing, 1st half of game: 360 vs. Denver Broncos, 1/9/05[237]
Led the biggest comeback in conference championship game history (18 pts), 1/21/07 vs. New England[238]
One of only four QBs to post a perfect 158.3 passer rating in a game (Don Meredith, Terry Bradshaw, Dave Krieg)[239]
Most games with 20+ completions: 14[240]
Most games with 30+ completions: 4[241]
Most games with 30+ attempts: 17[242]
Most games with 40+ attempts: 8[243]
Most completions and attempts in a single postseason: 97/153 (2006)[244]
One of only 2 quarterbacks to complete 80% of his passes in two playoff games (tied with Kurt Warner)[245]
Most consecutive postseasons with at least one start: 9 (2002–2010)

Rookie records

Most passing attempts: 575[246] (surpassed by Sam Bradford in 2010)
Most completions: 326 (surpassed by Sam Bradford in 2010)[216]
Most passing yards: 3,739[216]
Most touchdown passes: 26[216]
Most consecutive games with a touchdown pass (games 4–16): 13[246]
Most games with at least one touchdown pass: 15 [44]
Most games with 300+ yards passing: 4 [44]
Most passing yards in week 1 debut: 302 vs. Miami Dolphins on 9/6/1998 (surpassed by Cam Newton in 2011)[247]

With Marvin Harrison

Manning and former Colts wide receiver Marvin Harrison hold a number of QB-WR tandem records:

Most completions/receptions (career): 953[248]
Most passing/receiving yards (career): 12,756[248]
Most passing/receiving touchdowns (career): 112[44][248]
Most completions/receptions in a season, QB-to-WR duo: 143 (2002)
Most passing/receiving yards in a season, QB-to-WR duo: 1,722 (2002)

Pro Bowl records

Most Pro Bowl selections for a QB: 11 (tied with Brett Favre)[249]
Most consecutive Pro Bowl selections for a QB: 9 (following the 2002-2010 seasons)
Most passing attempts (career): 150[106]
Most passing attempts (game): 41 (2004)[250]
Most completions (career): 92[106]
Most completions (game): 22 (2004)[250]
Most passing yards (career): 1,278[106]
Most passing yards (game): 342 (2004)[250]
Most passing touchdowns (career): 13[106]

Colts franchise records

Most passing attempts (career): 7,210[43]
Most passing attempts (season): 679 (2010)[43]
Most passing attempts (rookie season): 575 (1998)[43]
Most 40+ passing attempt games (career): 56[43]
Most completions (career): 4,682[43]
Most completions (season): 450 (2010)[43]
Most completions (rookie season): 326 (1998)[43]
Most completions (game): 40 (09/12/10 at Houston)[43]
Most completions (rookie game): 30 (11/01/98 vs. New England)[43]
Most consecutive completions: 23 (12/14/08-12/18/08 vs. Detroit/Jacksonville)[44]
Most games with 20+ completions (career): 140[43]
Most consecutive games with 20+ completions: 14 (games 1–14, 2010)[43]
Most games with 30+ completions (career): 23[251]
Highest completion percentage (career): 64.9%[43]
Highest completion percentage (season): 68.8% (2009)[43]
Highest completion percentage (rookie season): 56.7%[43]
Highest completion percentage (game): 87.5% (14/16 for 95 yards, 12/30/07 vs. Tennessee)[44]
Most passing yards (career): 54,828[252]
Most passing yards (season): 4,700 (2010)[43]
Most passing yards (rookie season): 3,739[43]
Most passing yards (game): 472 (10/31/04 vs. Kansas City)[43]
Most 300+ passing yard games (career): 63[43]
Most 300+ passing yard games (season): 9 (2009)[43]
Most 300+ passing yard games (rookie season): 4[43]
Most consecutive passing 300+ yard games: 5 (games 1–5 in 2009)[43]
Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards : 11 (1999–2004, 2006–2010)[217]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004): 6[3]
Most touchdown passes (career): 399[5]
Most touchdown passes (season): 49 (2004)[43]
Most touchdown passes (rookie season): 26[43]

Most touchdown passes (game): 6 (09/28/03 vs. New Orleans and 11/25/04 vs. Detroit)[43]
Most touchdown passes (rookie game): 3 (4 times; tied with Johnny Unitas and Jeff George)[43]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (career): 22[253]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (season, 2004): 6[216]
Most games with at least 3 touchdown passes (career): 64[43]
Most games with at least 1 touchdown pass (season): 15 (5 times)[43]
Most games with at least 1 touchdown pass (rookie season): 15 (1998)[43]
Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes (games 7–11, 2004): 5 (2004)[216]
Most consecutive games with at least 3 touchdown passes : 8 (games 5–12, 2004)[254]
Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[43]
Most consecutive games with at least 1 touchdown pass (rookie season): 13 (games 4–16)[43]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes : 13 (1998–2010, current)[217]
Highest touchdown percentage (career): 5.66%[43]
Highest touchdown percentage (season): 9.86% (2004)[43]
Highest touchdown percentage (game): 24.00% (09/28/03 vs. New Orleans)[43]
Most interceptions thrown (game): 6 (11/11/07 vs. San Diego)[43]
Most interceptions thrown (season): 28 (1998)[43]
Highest passer rating (career): 94.9[43]
Highest passer rating (season): 121.1 (2004)[43]
Most games with a perfect passer rating (career): 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[95]
Most consecutive games started to open a career by a quarterback: 208 (current)[255]
Most games played, franchise history: 208
Most consecutive games started, franchise history: 208 (current)[255]
Most comeback wins in the 4th quarter (career): 35 (includes one playoff game) [43]
Most comeback wins in the 4th quarter (season): 7 (2009) [43]
Most game-winning drives in the 4th quarter/overtime (career): 46 (includes one playoff game) [43]
Most game-winning drives in the 4th quarter/overtime (season): 7 (1999, 2008, 2009)[43]

..'overrated'?

Peyton is also Super Bowl Champion, though you seem to only be focusing on the times he's fallen short.



No, my argument is that any player on the field can dramatically impact the game on any given Sunday.

End conversation.

 

[NosferatuBill36]

Jano!!!!!! 63 yards!!!!

 

[BadMoon]

Seriously 63 yard field goal? Never knew that was done before. Amazing!

 

[karamazov80]

..'overrated'? :huh

Peyton is also Super Bowl Champion, though you seem to only be focusing on the times he's fallen short.



No, my argument is that any player on the field can dramatically impact the game on any given Sunday.

For the reasons I've said. He is great, no one is gonna dispute that. Greatest regular season QB ever. But I cannot accept that he's better on the whole than Brady, when Brady has done much more of what athletes and coaches claim is the most important thing in their profession--winning when it counts. That's their standard, so it's also mine.

QBs are held accountable to that because of their impact on the game. Of course, any player can take over a game on any night. Kickers do it from time to time. But they aren't as important as QBs and you know it.

But he is.

He's not in the same conversation where folks bring up Jordan, Russell, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant, etc. Manning is up there in the NFL-equivalent conversations.

 

[316what]

Wow! Glad I stayed up a bit.

Seabass goes BOOM. He did say in the preseason that he was going to break the record this year. He still needs 1 more yard.

Seriously 63 yard field goal? Never knew that was done before. Amazing!

The last two have been in Mile High Stadium. Elam's was in 1998.

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

For the reasons I've said. He is great, no one is gonna dispute that. Greatest regular season QB ever. But I cannot accept that he's better on the whole than Brady, when Brady has done much more of what athletes and coaches claim is the most important thing in their profession--winning when it counts. That's their standard, so it's also mine.

Apparently that isn't the standard if Peyton ranks top 10 All Time on most lists.

He's played in 2 SB's, and won 1. The fact he actually brought 2 teams to play in Super Bowls can be considered a modern miracle considering the lack of talent his teams have had.

That FG was a BOMB!

 

[Grenouille]

He's played in 2 SB's, and won 1. The fact he actually brought 2 teams to play in Super Bowls can be considered a modern miracle considering the lack of talent his teams have had.

Colts have not lacked talent. Especially in the 2003-2009 time period.

 

[karamazov80]

Well like I suggested earlier--fairly or unfairly, players aren't judged by potential and in spite of the teams they have around them. They're judged by how well they play and what they've achieved (stats, wins, and championships all factor in to some degree). And your criteria (and obviously, that of others on this forum and elsewhere) are different than mine. That's your prerogative, but it doesn't change the fact that Manning's playoff record is roughly .500, despite his excellence in the regular season (I can't find the winning percentage in a quick google search, but I'm sure it's gaudy).

How do you explain that simple fact? Even if his teams weren't very good, they won a lot of freakin' regular season games, but couldn't maintain that excellence in the playoffs. Was it all his team's fault? When does the responsibility fall on the all-time great QB to will his teams to win?

Colts have not lacked talent. Especially in the 2003-2009 time period.

That's always thrown out there because the Colts had lame defenses many years. But their defense wasn't always horrible. Usually, it was average, but nothing special. And like I said before, the O-line around Manning was unbelievably good, and he always had receivers who could run routes and catch the ball. Yes, Manning's teams would not have been great without Manning, but it wasn't like they were the Browns or anything.

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

Colts have not lacked talent. Especially in the 2003-2009 time period.

Compared to the teams of Montana, Young, Brady I will disagree.

Well like I suggested earlier--fairly or unfairly, players aren't judged by potential and in spite of the teams they have around them. They're judged by how well they play and what they've achieved (stats, wins, and championships all factor in to some degree). And your criteria (and obviously, that of others on this forum and elsewhere) are different than mine.

Agreed.

Was it all his team's fault?

No, the QB takes heat as well, but you've pinned all the playoff failures of the Colts on Manning directly while giving others a pass. Can't have it both ways.

When does the responsibility fall on the all-time great QB to will his teams to win?

'Will his team to win'....I don't know how to measure will to begin with. Either the QB makes plays or he doesn't. Same can be said for every other player on the team.

 

[SixMillionDollarMan Guy]

I guess what I'm struggling to understand is how you call a player who has set these records:


Regular season

Highest passer rating, season: 121.1 (2004)[216]
Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards: 11 (1999–2004, 2006–2010)[217]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards: 6 (1999–2004)[3]
Most pass completions in a season: 450 (2010)[218]
Most games with 40+ pass attempts in a season: 10 (2010)[219]
Most games with 30+ pass completions in a season: 6 (2010; tied with Kurt Warner and Rich Gannon)[220]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 20 touchdown passes: 13 (1998–2010; current) [44]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes: 13 (1998–2010; current)[217]
Most games with a perfect passer rating, career: 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[95]
Most consecutive games started to open a career: 208 [221][44]
Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[222]
Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes: 5 (games 7–11, 2004)[216]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes, season: 6 (2004; tied with 1984 Marino)[216]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes, career: 24 (includes 2 playoff games; tied with Brett Favre)[223]
Most games with at least 5 touchdown passes, career: 7 (includes 1 playoff game)[224]
Most games with at least 5 touchdown passes and no interceptions, career: 4 (tied with Tom Brady)
One of only seven QBs with at least 6 touchdown passes in two games (tied with Sammy Baugh, Y.A. Tittle, Daryle Lamonica, Tom Brady, Charley Johnson and George Blanda)[225]
One of only two QBs with at least 6 touchdown passes and no interceptions in two games (tied with Tom Brady)
Most regular games with at least 300 passing yards: 63 (tied with Dan Marino)
Most regular and postseason games with at least 300 passing yards: 71
Most games with at least 400 yards passing and no interceptions: 4
Most career touchdown passes in Thursday games: 25[226]
Most touchdown passes on a Thursday game: 6 (tied with Bob Griese)
Largest career TD-INT differential: 201
Highest career passing TDs/game average (min. 150 TD passes): 1.91 TDs/game[44]
Highest career passing yards/game average: 263.6[227]
Second-Highest career completions/game average (min. 100 games played): 22.5[228]
Most consecutive games with a passer rating over 100: 9 (games 5–13 of 2004 season; record tied by Carson Palmer, 2004–05 and Tom Brady, 2006–07)[229]
Highest completion percentage by a QB in one month in NFL history (min. 75 attempts): 81.8% (December 2008) [44]
Most career games with a completion percentage of 70% or higher (min. 10 attempts): 66[230]
Most consecutive regular season wins as a starter: 23 (2008–2009)
Most seasons with 10+ wins as a starter (regular season only): 11 (1999–2000, 2002–2010)
Most seasons with 12+ wins as a starter (regular season only): 8 (1999, 2003–2009)
Only QB with at least 12 wins as a starter in 7 consecutive seasons (2003–2009)[231]
Only QB with nine straight seasons of 10+ wins as a starter (2002–2010)[44]
Only QB to lead five consecutive 4th quarter comeback wins (games 7–11, 2009)[232]
Most fourth quarter comeback wins in one season: 7 (2009)[233]
First QB to defeat the other 31 teams in the regular season (Tom Brady did this later the same day, and Brett Favre did it the following week)[234]
Most wins as a starting QB in a decade, regular season only: 115 (2000s)[162]
Most wins as a starting QB in a decade, regular & postseason: 124 (2000s)
Most AP NFL MVP Awards: 4 (2003, 2004, 2008, 2009)[1]
Most Touchdown Passes in a decade: 314 (2000–2009)
Most Passing Yards in a decade: 42,254 (2000–2009)
Most Completions in a decade: 3,575 (2000–2009)

Playoff records

Most 300+ yard passing games: 8 [235]
Most 400+ yard passing games: 2 (tied with Dan Marino)[236]
Most yards passing, 1st half of game: 360 vs. Denver Broncos, 1/9/05[237]
Led the biggest comeback in conference championship game history (18 pts), 1/21/07 vs. New England[238]
One of only four QBs to post a perfect 158.3 passer rating in a game (Don Meredith, Terry Bradshaw, Dave Krieg)[239]
Most games with 20+ completions: 14[240]
Most games with 30+ completions: 4[241]
Most games with 30+ attempts: 17[242]
Most games with 40+ attempts: 8[243]
Most completions and attempts in a single postseason: 97/153 (2006)[244]
One of only 2 quarterbacks to complete 80% of his passes in two playoff games (tied with Kurt Warner)[245]
Most consecutive postseasons with at least one start: 9 (2002–2010)

Rookie records

Most passing attempts: 575[246] (surpassed by Sam Bradford in 2010)
Most completions: 326 (surpassed by Sam Bradford in 2010)[216]
Most passing yards: 3,739[216]
Most touchdown passes: 26[216]
Most consecutive games with a touchdown pass (games 4–16): 13[246]
Most games with at least one touchdown pass: 15 [44]
Most games with 300+ yards passing: 4 [44]
Most passing yards in week 1 debut: 302 vs. Miami Dolphins on 9/6/1998 (surpassed by Cam Newton in 2011)[247]

With Marvin Harrison

Manning and former Colts wide receiver Marvin Harrison hold a number of QB-WR tandem records:

Most completions/receptions (career): 953[248]
Most passing/receiving yards (career): 12,756[248]
Most passing/receiving touchdowns (career): 112[44][248]
Most completions/receptions in a season, QB-to-WR duo: 143 (2002)
Most passing/receiving yards in a season, QB-to-WR duo: 1,722 (2002)

Pro Bowl records

Most Pro Bowl selections for a QB: 11 (tied with Brett Favre)[249]
Most consecutive Pro Bowl selections for a QB: 9 (following the 2002-2010 seasons)
Most passing attempts (career): 150[106]
Most passing attempts (game): 41 (2004)[250]
Most completions (career): 92[106]
Most completions (game): 22 (2004)[250]
Most passing yards (career): 1,278[106]
Most passing yards (game): 342 (2004)[250]
Most passing touchdowns (career): 13[106]

Colts franchise records

Most passing attempts (career): 7,210[43]
Most passing attempts (season): 679 (2010)[43]
Most passing attempts (rookie season): 575 (1998)[43]
Most 40+ passing attempt games (career): 56[43]
Most completions (career): 4,682[43]
Most completions (season): 450 (2010)[43]
Most completions (rookie season): 326 (1998)[43]
Most completions (game): 40 (09/12/10 at Houston)[43]
Most completions (rookie game): 30 (11/01/98 vs. New England)[43]
Most consecutive completions: 23 (12/14/08-12/18/08 vs. Detroit/Jacksonville)[44]
Most games with 20+ completions (career): 140[43]
Most consecutive games with 20+ completions: 14 (games 1–14, 2010)[43]
Most games with 30+ completions (career): 23[251]
Highest completion percentage (career): 64.9%[43]
Highest completion percentage (season): 68.8% (2009)[43]
Highest completion percentage (rookie season): 56.7%[43]
Highest completion percentage (game): 87.5% (14/16 for 95 yards, 12/30/07 vs. Tennessee)[44]
Most passing yards (career): 54,828[252]
Most passing yards (season): 4,700 (2010)[43]
Most passing yards (rookie season): 3,739[43]
Most passing yards (game): 472 (10/31/04 vs. Kansas City)[43]
Most 300+ passing yard games (career): 63[43]
Most 300+ passing yard games (season): 9 (2009)[43]
Most 300+ passing yard games (rookie season): 4[43]
Most consecutive passing 300+ yard games: 5 (games 1–5 in 2009)[43]
Most seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards : 11 (1999–2004, 2006–2010)[217]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 4,000 passing yards (1999–2004): 6[3]
Most touchdown passes (career): 399[5]
Most touchdown passes (season): 49 (2004)[43]
Most touchdown passes (rookie season): 26[43]

Most touchdown passes (game): 6 (09/28/03 vs. New Orleans and 11/25/04 vs. Detroit)[43]
Most touchdown passes (rookie game): 3 (4 times; tied with Johnny Unitas and Jeff George)[43]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (career): 22[253]
Most games with at least 4 touchdown passes (season, 2004): 6[216]
Most games with at least 3 touchdown passes (career): 64[43]
Most games with at least 1 touchdown pass (season): 15 (5 times)[43]
Most games with at least 1 touchdown pass (rookie season): 15 (1998)[43]
Most consecutive games with at least 4 touchdown passes (games 7–11, 2004): 5 (2004)[216]
Most consecutive games with at least 3 touchdown passes : 8 (games 5–12, 2004)[254]
Most consecutive games with at least 2 touchdown passes: 13 (games 1–13, 2004)[43]
Most consecutive games with at least 1 touchdown pass (rookie season): 13 (games 4–16)[43]
Most consecutive seasons with at least 25 touchdown passes : 13 (1998–2010, current)[217]
Highest touchdown percentage (career): 5.66%[43]
Highest touchdown percentage (season): 9.86% (2004)[43]
Highest touchdown percentage (game): 24.00% (09/28/03 vs. New Orleans)[43]
Most interceptions thrown (game): 6 (11/11/07 vs. San Diego)[43]
Most interceptions thrown (season): 28 (1998)[43]
Highest passer rating (career): 94.9[43]
Highest passer rating (season): 121.1 (2004)[43]
Most games with a perfect passer rating (career): 4 (includes 1 playoff game)[95]
Most consecutive games started to open a career by a quarterback: 208 (current)[255]
Most games played, franchise history: 208
Most consecutive games started, franchise history: 208 (current)[255]
Most comeback wins in the 4th quarter (career): 35 (includes one playoff game) [43]
Most comeback wins in the 4th quarter (season): 7 (2009) [43]
Most game-winning drives in the 4th quarter/overtime (career): 46 (includes one playoff game) [43]
Most game-winning drives in the 4th quarter/overtime (season): 7 (1999, 2008, 2009)[43]

..'overrated'?

Peyton is also Super Bowl Champion, though you seem to only be focusing on the times he's fallen short.



No, my argument is that any player on the field can dramatically impact the game on any given Sunday.

*OWNED*

For the reasons I've said. He is great, no one is gonna dispute that. Greatest regular season QB ever. But I cannot accept that he's better on the whole than Brady, when Brady has done much more of what athletes and coaches claim is the most important thing in their profession--winning when it counts. That's their standard, so it's also mine.

Who said Manning was better than Brady? I never argued that point. I disagreed with you on the following comment,

"Peyton Manning is so over hyped"

That's an irrational comment. I called you on it and you were busted by others as well.