Nolan Dark Knight Trilogy (BB/TDK/TDKR)

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So allowing one of the world's best upcoming (at the time, and now firmly established) film makers to do his take on possibly the most popular comic book character of all time was short sighted?

Given that the result was one of the most critically and commercially successful movie trilogies of all time, I think not. :lol

I would agree, that sounds like the Nolan backlash being applied retroactively. I don't think anyone post-Batman&Robin would have or did argue against Nolan's approach. It was the most logical thing to do at that point. Having said that I think the logical thing now is to reintroduce a bit more of the fantastical again.

Yeah, Nolan was a great palette cleanser and restored balance to the Force. :lol Now they can have fun with the fantasy again as long as they don't go back to the Dark Side....

All good points. In terms of artistic and cinematic value, the Nolan films did their job. If the public was fed up with the outrageous zaniness that Batman had become, and something had to be done to "restore balance to the Force." (nice metaphor, btw :clap ) We've gone to both deep ends now, essentially. Now we need a balanced version of Batman.

At the end of the day, what it all comes down to is that people love to *****. They ***** that Batman & Robin is terrible, and them they go on to ***** about how overrated The TDK Trilogy is. Make up your minds, people; or do you just love being perpetually unhappy with the results of anything?

Yes, Batman and Robin was a bunch of silly crap. Yes, Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy was overbearing, pretentious, and deviated too far from the essence of the character. There is middle ground. That's what we need now. We need a Batman who we can take seriously, but we also need him to exist in a world in which fantastic **** happens. Nolan did a great job in making people take Batman seriously again, I'll give him that. But he also spawned a generation of kids who don't know any better, who now think that Batman is a compulsive quitter and talks in a harsh, guttural, indistinguishable growl that sounds more like a wounded animal than a man. Some even think he doesn't live in the same world as Superman, and believe it would be unthinkable to bring the two together. They never experienced Batman in his full, bad-*** comic book glory, and I'm hoping that Snyder can at least partially restore that. TDK trilogy was a nice detour, but by no means should it be considered the final destination.
 
Pretentious and overbearing? That's what we're going with, now? They're genuinely good films. I don't see anything pretentious about using comic book characters in a pseudo-realistic manner when you have good stories to tell. Is it because The Avengers somehow provided a better "balance" or some bull****? This hate wagon reminds me of when The Joker was first announced; " WTF DO YOU MEAN HE'Z NAWT PERMAWHITE!?!?!?"

They have depth, and they have a serious tone, but, again, I hardly see anything pretentious about that.
 
I'm pretty sure the kids who've grown up with Nolan's films don't view him as a compulsive quitter.

There is no final destination as far as Batman is concerned. The character is so universal you can do a million different takes of it. I don't think Nolan deviated much from the essence of the character at all, in fact I believe he took the essence and grounded it in a quasi realistic setting. It just deviated from the character that SOME people consider definitive Batman in their mind's eye.

As for pretentious and overbearing? To you maybe.
To many, epic and profound.

With that being said, I'm ready to see a more fantastical version of Batman on the big screen now.
 
Pretentious and overbearing? That's what we're going with, now? They're genuinely good films. I don't see anything pretentious about using comic book characters in a pseudo-realistic manner when you have good stories to tell. Is it because The Avengers somehow provided a better "balance" or some bull****? This hate wagon reminds me of when The Joker was first announced; " WTF DO YOU MEAN HE'Z NAWT PERMAWHITE!?!?!?"

They have depth, and they have a serious tone, but, again, I hardly see anything pretentious about that.

Let me rephrase that. I found them, ever so slightly, overbearing and pretentious. It's not that they weren't good films in themselves, but when you take subject matter that is beloved to many, like Batman (apparently more beloved to many than it was to Nolan), and alter it in such a way that many find extremely disappointing, and the rest of the world runs around saying it's the greatest thing ever, and that's how things should be going forward, it touches a nerve. So, yes, I probably judge Nolan, and his Batman trilogy a bit harshly. But it doesn't take away my original point - if you're going to represent a beloved comic character in film, and it's going to be the primary representation of that character for much of the world, it's bad form to change the foundation of that character too drastically. Maybe Batman Begins and the rest of the trilogy arose from a different time, in which no one ever dreamed that a shared superhero movie universe would work. Maybe WB was so desperate to re-monetize the character that they would make big changes to the fundamental design of one of their flagship franchises. But for the fans, who knew a shared universe would work all along, and were waiting for fat cat studio execs to get their heads out of their collective asses and realize it also, it's an insult. The entire ending of TDKR was an insult to any true fan, who realized the potential of these characters all along. Not that it's bad as a standalone story, but when you take the massive amount of collective consciousness that's invested in the Batman franchise, not to mention the years and money and manpower that it took to make that trilogy, all to lead to a dead end road that actually necessitates a reboot, I wouldn't call that a good artistic or business decision. Sure, maybe I have the luxury of hindsight. But for myself, and many other fans, the DCCU would have worked all along. Maybe the public needed TDK trilogy to flock to superhero movies again, but I didn't. Maybe the public had never seen the DCAU and were never wondering when we were going to see something like that in movie form, but I had, and I was. Somehow, Marvel figured it out and was able to capitalize on it. Why didn't WB? Why didn't DC? Would you characterize that as anything less than incompetence? What about the Green Lantern movie? I suppose that was a masterpiece as well? All I can say, is that I am glad that Marvel has lit a fire under DC's ***. God knows that they wouldn't have taken the initiative themselves. Now, we can only hope that they can orchestrate the same long-term, massive scale planning that it will take to bring us something as sustainable, and on the scale of the MCCU.
 
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I would agree, that sounds like the Nolan backlash being applied retroactively.

"They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out. Like a leper."

The Joker was right! :horror
 
"They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out. Like a leper."

The Joker was right! :horror

Yep, it amazes me how quickly people tear something apart when there's something new on the horizon. I just think it's hilarious because folks don't even know if what is on the horizon is better. There are just too many Batman hipsters.:lecture
 
Yep, it amazes me how quickly people tear something apart when there's something new on the horizon. I just think it's hilarious because folks don't even know if what is on the horizon is better. There are just too many Batman hipsters.:lecture

It's not about something new, or about being a hipster. It's about something fundamentally obvious. DC and/or WB didn't have the foresight to realize that a shared superhero universe would work, so they greenlit Nolan to bring us an uber-"realistic" Batman, which would appeal to the public's thirst for "dark and gritty." Nolan was committed to making a story with an ending, set in its own little world, one that is of absolutely no use to a shared DC universe.

Oh, and he gave Batman that ridiculous voice.

Unforgivable.
 
Bull****. That doesn't make it any less valid. Who really cares if it was a shared universe or not? It was a creative decision that fit his vision, and, before that, everyone seemed to have one thing on their minds: bringing Batman back to his darker roots. Nolan does that, and then people crucify him for it bcuz Avengrz had Zany LOLZ.

You're right, it isn't of any use to a shared universe, but it was never meant to be. As for the "ridiculous" voice, I didn't find it all that ridiculous; a guy who's in the spotlight an awful lot might not want to risk being found out by speaking the same way as he would in a public interview. One could also say that whitewashing Khan with Cumberbund was unforgivable, as well.
 
One could also say that whitewashing Khan with Cumberbund was unforgivable, as well.

And I in fact would say that. Not that I have anything against Cumberbatch...but he wasn't Khan. The writers didn't even attempt to write him like Khan and as such rendered the whole thing pointless. He might aswell have just been, I dunno, a guy called John Harrison.
 
Yep, it amazes me how quickly people tear something apart when there's something new on the horizon. I just think it's hilarious because folks don't even know if what is on the horizon is better. There are just too many Batman hipsters.:lecture

Welcome to my world. Now you know why I have such distain for the new Spider-Mans.
 
They never did. Spider-Man 3 was the hated one, and it was justified. But the new one got the fanboys all riled up, and with fanboys THERE CAN ONLY BE ONEEE!!!
 
Bull****. That doesn't make it any less valid. Who really cares if it was a shared universe or not? It was a creative decision that fit his vision, and, before that, everyone seemed to have one thing on their minds: bringing Batman back to his darker roots. Nolan does that, and then people crucify him for it bcuz Avengrz had Zany LOLZ.

Nobody's crucifying him because the Avengers had a lighthearted tone. You can have a dark tone, and still be completely unrealistic, a la Sin City, 300, and Watchmen. In fact, I don't blame Nolan at all. It wasn't his fault that WB/DC didn't have the foresight to realize that instead of making Batman Begins, they could have been making a Batman that would tie into a Justice League film.

You're right, it isn't of any use to a shared universe, but it was never meant to be. As for the "ridiculous" voice, I didn't find it all that ridiculous; a guy who's in the spotlight an awful lot might not want to risk being found out by speaking the same way as he would in a public interview.

If you want to bring logic into it, he could have covered his whole face and used a voice-changer, which would have been a lot more bad-***, in my opinion.

But wait. This is a story about a guy who runs around in a very specific costume, and fights crime in a very specific way. It's almost like, it's something that just wouldn't work in the real world.


One could also say that whitewashing Khan with Cumberbund was unforgivable, as well.

And I in fact would say that. Not that I have anything against Cumberbatch...but he wasn't Khan. The writers didn't even attempt to write him like Khan and as such rendered the whole thing pointless. He might aswell have just been, I dunno, a guy called John Harrison.

:exactly:

I actually agree with you both 100%. Just because I like Cumberbatch as an actor, and I liked his performance in Star Trek, doesn't mean I supported any of the creative choices they made in that movie. For one, even using Khan as a villain was asininely obvious, and horribly uncreative. The fact that they made him a white guy on top of all that was just downright insulting. I'd go in more depth about other stupid decisions they made in that movie, but I don't want to spoil it any further for anyone who hasn't seen it.
 
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I still don't understand the whole "foresight" thing, though. Iron Man didn't even exist when BB came out. I'm glad we got what we got, and I wouldn't change it for the world. They were good films, with good interpretations, and solid stories behind them. Batman, on film, was left in shambles when B&R came out. He needed a reinvention, and the Nolan trilogy did a great job of providing that.
 
I still don't understand the whole "foresight" thing, though. Iron Man didn't even exist when BB came out. I'm glad we got what we got, and I wouldn't change it for the world. They were good films, with good interpretations, and solid stories behind them. Batman, on film, was left in shambles when B&R came out. He needed a reinvention, and the Nolan trilogy did a great job of providing that.

Granted, Nolan did reinvent, and reinvigorate public interest in Batman. I still don't agree that making the franchise totally "realistic" was ever a good decision, though. Also, why would Iron Man have to have been released yet? Are you saying that WB/DC couldn't have come up with the idea that a shared universe would work in film, independently of Marvel doing it first? Especially when DC had what was, arguably, the most successful shared superhero universe on screen to date in the DCAU? Unless Iron Man's success somehow was made possible by the success of Batman Begins, (which may be the case), the closing off of the Batman universe to any crossovers is still not justified. Basically, I think it all boils down to the DC movie rights being in the hands of people who didn't realize the value, or potential, of what they had. Batman is an easy success, because he's always been popular since Burton's movies, despite the failure of Batman and Robin, which was merely a hiccup in a largely successful legacy. Maybe, DC, with its aging, dusty, roster of superheroes, wasn't attracting the same visionary talent that Marvel was. Maybe Stan Lee was their ace in the hole. Maybe the fact that Lee, having created many of Marvel's characters himself, not to mention that they all belonged in a shared universe from their very conception, contributed in a large way to the overall, unified, creative vision of Marvel Studios. The fact that DC's characters were in fact, not originally created as members of the same universe, obviously inspired Nolan's assertion that they indeed wouldn't exist in the same universe in his movies. Now, only time will tell if this will set DC back in the shared cinematic universe game. With the right talent on board, and a clear vision for the future, there's no reason that DC can't equal, or even surpass what Marvel has done. The real question is, do they have that framework in place? Do they have an architect to ensure that all the pieces fit into the larger picture? Only time will tell, and I can only hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Related: How Marvel Unified Its Movie Universe (And Why That Won’t Be Easy for DC)
 
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The problem with all those "isolated/realistic batman was a shortsighted move" comments, is that those who make them apparently don't realise that for many people Batman - unlike Spiderman, X-Men or the Avengers - is a character that long ago trancended the comic books mythos and doesn't need a shared universe to work. Justice League is not the "be all, end all" setting for Batman.

In case of Marvel characters they exist within a whole bible of comic mythos and many years of storylines and telenovela worth of different characters. But Batman? He is a monolithic figure. Its a story about a guy whose parents were killed and who pummels criminals with his elbows, while dressed as a black beast. Its a wonderful concept that works great on its own, without any shared universe or "bat-family" and justice league friends. Its something that can be tackled in many ways, like the Burton's fairy tale gothic, or Nolan's gritty, contemporary pseudo-noir. I know that the current comic book canon sees Batman interact with a multitude of supernatural beings and characters, but I would bet money that for most people in the world Batman is still that monolithic, self-contained character. I would argue that Batman as a "lone, dark, avenger imprisoned within a city that created him" is a concept that is much more strongly rooted in popculture than the "Batman hangs out with Bat-girl, Robin, Supes, Aquaman and his super friends from their super justice league". It all boils down to that single image of a man crouched like a gargoyle atop a building while wearing something black. Everything else is just chaff.

Take Burton's films for example. They are placed within a totally fantastical, supernatural world that could easily make place for the likes of Superman or the rest of the Justice Leage, but I would bet heavy money that Burton would never in a million years be interested in introducing any of that stuff. Becouse for him it was all about the story of that one crazy, schizofrenic antihero. All about making a poetic fairy tale about a one man's delusion and the crazy city he lived in. Not a re-union of tights-wearing A-team. He wanted to create a bitter-sweet, gothic myth, similar to the tale of Frankestein or Dracula. Introducing all the shared universe stuff would competely cheapen it. He didn't give a **** about any of that noise. And I would argue that so do many geeks in the world. Geeks for whom "Batman with friends" idea can work, but will always be just an alternative to the essential story of a lone crusader. People who know that the idea of Justice Leage is cool, but its far from being the one definetive, quintessential setting for a Batman story.

I don't want to make the cynical mystake of ridiculing or pretentiously underestimating the fully over-the-top, comic-booky mythos of Batman. I know that the apparent sillynes of the "bat-family and friends" concept is just a premise, and once You accept the premise, then it offers a potential for fantastic storylines and interactions between those freaky characters. And I believe there is a great potential is the dynamic between Supes and Batman in the upcoming movie.

But whether or not those interactions and shared universe are better than an isolated, symbolic Batman, is up for debate and personal taste. But I would never, ever say that the colorfull "God-like Batman dukes it out with aliens and gods, while accompanied by teens in tights", is in any way more canon or more important than the "lone, crazy vigilante, stalking the streets of the city that killed his parents" - basically a Year One type story. Which is exactly what Nolan, Goyer and DC were going for with "Begins".

Some say that "realistic/contemporary" approach doesnt fit such an outlandish hero as batman, but thats bull****. In fact if there is one mainstrem tights-wearer who deserves the "crime movie/action/thriller" treatmen its Batman. It just fits the character, like a glove. Besides a "realistic" Batman was hardly anything new. "Batman: Year One" looks nothing like the comic booky crossovers, that form the current comic storyline. So its not like Nolan did something outrageous at the time, in fact he went for the obvious - "this would make a perfect Batman movie" pitch. Saying that he or DC were shortsighted at the time, is a bit silly. You can argue whether or not it payed out for them in the end, or whether it was worth it, but at time they greenlighted Begins, both DC and Nolan simply grabbed the obvious gold strike that was just there within their reach, and at that point they would be silly not to.
 
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When I mention Iron Man, I'm saying that the idea of a shared universe; a continuity, if you will; didn't even enter the public consciousness until well after the first Iron Man came out. A Justice League movie was something people wanted to see, but no one ever said that they wanted a web of interrelated solo films to build up to it. The fact that Batman was a solo franchise should have no bearing on the idea of it not being part of a "shared universe." Remember that WB and DC were also trying to get Justice League: Mortal off the ground, as well.
 
I don't remember BB ever being advertised as "the realistic batman." It was sold as an "origin story." Then made into series inside the universe it created. The only shortsightedness was Nolan making Batman old and throwing in that awful ending but then again it is pretty obvious that Nolan wasn't interested in continuing his universe so it wasn't really shortsighted at all.

They could of tied Nolan's batman into a justice league movie if they wanted to but Nolan didn't want to. Let's not forget there wasn't a single bat or batarang in TDK. They didn't get to the end and realize "Oh snap, we coulda had something here." They did what they intended
 
Those last few posts nailed it. Burtonverse, Nolanverse, it was all good and valid. Schumacherverse was even alright if you can enjoy the camp such as it is.

But now it is time for a shared DC-verse simply because that hasn't really been done at the cinema before. Mind you I'm still not sure MOS2 is the right place to start.
 
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