NYC Seriously?

[thenammagazine]

As a school teacher our standards need to be higher, need to get rid of teacher tenure, need strong national standards, etc. I won't get on that soap box long. We need to emphasize proper fitness for our citizens. Especially kids so maybe they take decent care of themselves and won't become a stress for our already crappy healthcare system. No, it doesn't stop them but it's better than saying go right ahead. So laws like that are better than not having them IMO.

Only because you don't have it, Josh. ATM, tenure is the only thing keeping schools from firing teachers (as a way to skirt addressing the real issue) because inept parents complain that their deadbeat kids are failing despite not being bothered to even make their kids study and turn in assignments. Students are failing because they refuse to participate in class or do any of the homework assigned, and left and right administration is backing inept parents and blaming the teachers.

 

[The Josh]

Only because you don't have it, Josh. ATM, tenure is the only thing keeping schools from firing teachers (as a way to skirt addressing the real issue) because inept parents complain that their deadbeat kids are failing despite not being bothered to even make their kids study and turn in assignments. Students are failing because they refuse to participate in class or do any of the homework assigned, and left and right administration is backing inept parents and blaming the teachers.

I would feel this way if I had it or not. Yes, it protects good teacher but it protects the bad teachers as well. Schools have to keep inept teachers or teachers who have become lazy due to tenure. I agree with you on the parent issue. That is yet another of my many issues I have with the education system or people who just shouldn't have kids ever.

 

[thenammagazine]

I would feel this way if I had it or not. Yes, it protects good teacher but it protects the bad teachers as well. Schools have to keep inept teachers or teachers who have become lazy due to tenure. I agree with you on the parent issue. That is yet another of my many issues I have with the education system or people who just shouldn't have kids ever.

The main issue is getting the parents to encourage and support their children in learning. Tenure doesn't protect bad teachers, that's a myth. Schools already have the means to get rid of bad teachers through contract violations and programs like PAR, etc. Tenure is just tossed up as an excuse to take the blame for lazy administration afraid to deal with irresponsible parents and teacher unions.

 

[The Josh]

The main issue is getting the parents to encourage and support their children in learning. Tenure doesn't protect bad teachers, that's a myth. Schools already have the means to get rid of bad teachers through contract violations and programs like PAR, etc. Tenure is just tossed up as an excuse to take the blame for lazy administration afraid to deal with irresponsible parents and teacher unions.

I agree getting parents involved is huge. However, you're dead wrong on it being a myth. I'm a school teacher Nam and I've seen it up close that teachers who have become lazy, don't care, etc get to stay because they had tenure. Yes, if a teacher is bad enough they will go no matter what but once a teacher gets tenure it's very hard to get rid of them. Again, you're correct that lazy administrators are to blame as well.

 

[thenammagazine]

administrators are to blame

Period.

If you took away their ability to blindly pinkslip teachers who don't yet qualify for tenure and force them to give a valid reason for termination, they'd start taking the necessary steps to terminate the bad teachers who have it. It's not as hard as the administration makes it seem. They're just too ____ing lazy (or scared of the union) to act on it.

 

[The Josh]

I agree I blame as much on administrators or school board officials as I do bad teachers, parents, etc.

Having been a perfect example of your example I agree with that statement.

 

[thenammagazine]

I agree I blame as much on administrators or school board officials as I do bad teachers, parents, etc.

Having been a perfect example of your example I agree with that statement.

Imagine them removing tenure as an option. They'd be able to fire PhysEd teachers because the morbidly obese kids don't want to participate in PE and have low scores (if any) showing zero progress on the state fitness tests. Though they absolutely should, you know they're not going to tell the parents they should be investigated by Child Protective Services for essentially attempting to murder their children.

 

[Lejuan]

I agree getting parents involved is huge. However, you're dead wrong on it being a myth. I'm a school teacher Nam and I've seen it up close that teachers who have become lazy, don't care, etc get to stay because they had tenure. Yes, if a teacher is bad enough they will go no matter what but once a teacher gets tenure it's very hard to get rid of them. Again, you're correct that lazy administrators are to blame as well.

In my experience as a teacher I'm not sure that any laziness or lack of care exhibited by teachers can be directly attributed to their tenured status. Where I come from teachers get jaded from the lack of promotion prospects outside of the administrative framework - ie excellence in teaching is not rewarded, only the capacity to manage; a central administration that keeps shifting the curriculum goalposts according to the latest pedagogical trend; and their inability to report on their students in simple and honest language - ie everything has to be couched in positive terms, whether or not the student is utterly lazy, completely ill-disciplined or simply stupid.

Tenure wasn't the reason I was attracted to the profession, and it certainly wasn't enough to keep me there. When I was tendering my resignation my central admin supervisor was astonished when I told her that I can be better paid, better treated by my employer and better respected by my clients in just about anything else I decided to do. In throwing in the towel I had a newfound respect for the 80% of teachers who tolerate all the stuff I couldn't, and all because they genuinely care about the profession and their roles as educators of our young people.

 

[The Josh]

Imagine them removing tenure as an option. They'd be able to fire PhysEd teachers because the morbidly obese kids don't want to participate in PE and have low scores (if any) showing zero progress on the state fitness tests. Though they absolutely should, you know they're not going to tell the parents they should be investigated by Child Protective Services for essentially attempting to murder their children.

Maybe not remove it but it does need to be tweaked. That way good young teachers care about their kids, their education, and doing everything possible to be a better teacher are kept.

 

[The Josh]

In my experience as a teacher I'm not sure that any laziness or lack of care exhibited by teachers can be directly attributed to their tenured status. Where I come from teachers get jaded from the lack of promotion prospects outside of the administrative framework - ie excellence in teaching is not rewarded, only the capacity to manage; a central administration that keeps shifting the curriculum goalposts according to the latest pedagogical trend; and their inability to report on their students in simple and honest language - ie everything has to be couched in positive terms, whether or not the student is utterly lazy, completely ill-disciplined or simply stupid.

Tenure wasn't the reason I was attracted to the profession, and it certainly wasn't enough to keep me there. When I was tendering my resignation my central admin supervisor was astonished when I told her that I can be better paid, better treated by my employer and better respected by my clients in just about anything else I decided to do. In throwing in the towel I had a newfound respect for the 80% of teachers who tolerate all the stuff I couldn't, and all because they genuinely care about the profession and their roles as educators of our young people.

I agree it's not totally to blame but in its current form here is an issue. The rest of your post is very very well said.

 

[The Ween]

Only because you don't have it, Josh. ATM, tenure is the only thing keeping schools from firing teachers (as a way to skirt addressing the real issue) because inept parents complain that their deadbeat kids are failing despite not being bothered to even make their kids study and turn in assignments. Students are failing because they refuse to participate in class or do any of the homework assigned, and left and right administration is backing inept parents and blaming the teachers.

Preach on, Brotha Nam! Amen!

 

[The Ween]

The main issue is getting the parents to encourage and support their children in learning. Tenure doesn't protect bad teachers, that's a myth. Schools already have the means to get rid of bad teachers through contract violations and programs like PAR, etc. Tenure is just tossed up as an excuse to take the blame for lazy administration afraid to deal with irresponsible parents and teacher unions.

Yup! Our teachers have to be evaluated several times a year and if they aren't doing their job, they're out the door.

I got my evaluation in the mail last week. As always...I is good!

 

[devilof76]

Privatize it.

 

[Lejuan]

Privatize parenting.

 

[thenammagazine]

Maybe not remove it but it does need to be tweaked. That way good young teachers care about their kids, their education, and doing everything possible to be a better teacher are kept.

Because every old teacher with tenure is bad and don't care about their students?

 

[The Josh]

Not every but I've seen more than I'd like to see. Tenure can be a good thing but as it currently stands it needs to be tweaked.

 

[thenammagazine]

Not every but I've seen more than I'd like to see. Tenure can be a good thing but as it currently stands it needs to be tweaked.

As I said earlier, I disagree. Tenured teachers can be easily fired if administration does what they're supposed to do, it's no different than firing any other employee of any other profession, they just have to be ready and willing to document the issues and be ready to confront the union when the teacher is justly terminated. The easier route and what really needs to be fought is the current situation with pink slipping new teachers for bull____ reasons. You do that and force administration to provide reasons for handing out the pink slips, for fear of legal recourse, they'll start doing what they're supposed to be doing, the bad teachers currently employed will be let go and the new teachers worth a damn will be kept and eventually tenured. Order restored.

 

[The Josh]

I can tell you from my own experience in education it flat out doesn't work like that and tenure protects bad teachers. If fixed or the system is fixed then I would agree let's keep it.

 

[The Ween]

Well, one day, most kids will be getting their education online, then you'll see the dumb downing of America for sure.

 

[thenammagazine]

I can tell you from my own experience in education it flat out doesn't work like that and tenure protects bad teachers. If fixed or the system is fixed then I would agree let's keep it.

And I can tell you you're wrong. My wife's a PAR coach and I've seen the contracts and been there for union meetings on termination. Get tenured, see what it's like first hand, THEN we'll talk.