One of the worst news stories I have ever read.

[occulum]

so that explains all of my odd dreams. They're just elevator music while my soul checks out at night to attend meetings and close deals that pertain to my future...

 

[devilof76]

How many times did he have to respond to the same post?

No, Reverend. (I never get tired of writing that.) The fact that a soul begins it's existence with birth, and ends with death, does not imply that there is no such thing as a soul. You are arbitrarily imposing the condition that a soul must be eternal for it to be a soul. Again, what evidence do you have for a soul's existence before birth or after death? Because I have near limitless evidence of the existence of consciousness in living things.

I've never seen a dead thing see. I don't expect to. Ever. Consciousness is an attribute of life. Non-living things have no use for it. The purpose of consciousness is to guide action to the end of perpetuating the life process. It is a highly evolved survival tool, volitional consciousness being the apex.

 

[Blackthornone]

so that explains all of my odd dreams. They're just elevator music while my soul checks out at night to attend meetings and close deals that pertain to my future...

The soul leaves the body during sleep so that one's dreams are adventures on the Astral Plane.


People who are adept at lucid dreaming have agreed to meet in a certain place when they go to sleep to dream and during the dream they share specific pieces of information that is later confirmed to have happened in the waking world. It's true.

For example, people agree to meet in a yellow school bus and then once the group is there they tell each other things which they write down just upon waking up and then they talk to each other and confirm this.

 

[Blackthornone]

How many times did he have to respond to the same post?

No, Reverend. (I never get tired of writing that.) The fact that a soul begins it's existence with birth, and ends with death, does not imply that there is no such thing as a soul. You are arbitrarily imposing the condition that a soul must be eternal for it to be a soul. Again, what evidence do you have for a soul's existence before birth or after death? Because I have near limitless evidence of the existence of consciousness in living things.

I've never seen a dead thing see. I don't expect to. Ever. Consciousness is an attribute of life. Non-living things have no use for it. The purpose of consciousness is to guide action to the end of perpetuating the life process. It is a highly evolved survival tool, volitional consciousness being the apex.

Consciousness isn't necessarily a soul. Awareness isn't a soul, either.
The soul is of spiritual origin and exists before and after the death of the physical body. The soul is also regarded as immortal. If you are using the word soul as it applies to consciousness in any other way, you aren't using it correctly.
If you think you are using it correctly, we are not talking about the same thing when we both say soul.

There is no need for the word soul if it does not define the essence of oneself that is of nonphysical origin.

You seem to be referring to the SELF.
The self is a much broader term that does not necessarily refer to a spirit. Individuality is another term that could fit.

 

[BadMuthaDude]

You have to agree to be murdered as a baby otherwise there is no free will. Got it.

 

[devilof76]

The only difference between your imaginary eternal soul and consciousness is your stipulation that it be eternal, and above that (I suspect) that it be divine in origin.

Consciousness is an observable, self-validating fact. I don't even need to prove it exists and that I have it. It is self-evident and axiomatic. All of my experience, knowledge, values, emotions, habits and will are attributes of the fact that I am conscious. The unity of those attributes is my soul.

What thing are you talking about?

 

[Blackthornone]

You have to agree to be murdered as a baby otherwise there is no free will. Got it.

That wasn't what I said. I said that this wasn't a woman who could be reasonably trusted as a mother regardless of of what agreement was made.

I don't know what the agreement was, but it is likely the woman said she'd be a halfway decent one and reneged. I don't know.

I said without a soul and without the ability to choose one's parents there is no free will.

People make and break agreements very frequently.

This soul made a bad decision picking this woman.

This woman looks less trustworthy than a used car salesman to me. I would never trust anything she said.

 

[BadMuthaDude]

Hey, as long as you don't invalidate your beliefs, right? Better to tell everyone that a recently raped and murdered infant deserved it.

 

[Blackthornone]

The only difference between your imaginary eternal soul and consciousness is your stipulation that it be eternal, and above that (I suspect) that it be divine in origin.

Consciousness is an observable, self-validating fact. I don't even need to prove it exists and that I have it. It is self-evident and axiomatic. All of my experience, knowledge, values, emotions, habits and will are attributes of the fact that I am conscious. The unity of those attributes is my soul.

What thing are you talking about?

That isn't a soul. It is consciousness.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/soul

soul (sl)
n.

"1. The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.
3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human."


"Consciousness
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/consciousness

con·scious·ness (knshs-ns)
n.
1. The state or condition of being conscious.
2. A sense of one's personal or collective identity, including the attitudes, beliefs, and sensitivities held by or considered characteristic of an individual or group: Love of freedom runs deep in the national consciousness."

"con•scious•ness (ˈkɒn ʃəs nɪs)

n.
1. the state of being conscious; awareness.
2. the thoughts and feelings, collectively, of an individual or of an aggregate of people.
3. full activity of the mind and senses, as in waking life: to regain consciousness.
4. awareness of something for what it is; internal knowledge: consciousness of wrongdoing.
5. concern, interest, or awareness: class consciousness.
6. the mental activity of which a person is aware, contrasted with unconscious thought.
7. Philos. the mind or the mental faculties, characterized by thought, feelings, and volition. "



If you don't believe that something exists, fine, but don't use a word that refers to something you don't believe exists and apply it to something else.
That makes no sense.

The word soul has always referred to an eternal spiritual form of consciousness, and NOT just consciousness

 

[Blackthornone]

Hey, as long as you don't invalidate your beliefs, right? Better to tell everyone that a recently raped and murdered infant deserved it.

I never said deserved. I said from the very beginning that what the woman and her boyfriend did was evil. I'll have to read up for my exact quote.
Here is what I said:

The baby didn't rape and kill itself, so it wasn't her fault. The mother and her boyfriend did it. They are at fault. She did however make a very unwise choice of mother. Evil is still evil regardless of compliance or agreement or providing the opportunity.

 

[devilof76]

Uh...#1 entry is exactly what I said. I'll add that yes, the soul (i.e. consciousness) is immaterial.

If you're going to prove me wrong, you may want to start by not proving me right.

 

[Blackthornone]

Uh...#1 entry is exactly what I said. I'll add that yes, the soul (i.e. consciousness) is immaterial.

If you're going to prove me wrong, you may want to start by not proving me right.

The thing that makes the word soul distinct from other definitions of consciousness is that it refers to an immortal spiritual self. Without that, there is no need for the word.

It would seem that you want to hijack the word out of spite for it's overwhelmingly accepted meaning for the past few centuries.

This brings us back from this tangent about the meaning of the word to reveal that you believe in free will in an interpretation of reality that could never possibly provide free will.

 

[devilof76]

Soul is the primitive concept. Concepts are not static. They expand as knowledge regarding their referent expands. The concept of consciousness is the fully realized concept of soul.

I told you last time why your nonsense about free will being impossible in a fundamentally material universe was nonsense. If you'd like to finally answer that argument, feel free. But don't try to assert what I dismantled as if I never tore it to shreds. Free will exists in this universe and this universe is fundamentally material.

Prove otherwise.

 

[BadMuthaDude]

Since we're talking about the soul and realms beyond our senses, the possibilities are infinite. So, I'm going believe that the souls think they are exercising free will when they come to their agreements with each other, but in fact they are only acting out what has been predetermined by the creator of souls. Therefore your beliefs prove that there is no free will.

 

[devilof76]

Be serious.

Also, if I'm hijacking the word, the dictionary that the Reverend referenced was too. #1 entry.

 

[BadMuthaDude]

It stopped getting serious the minute beliefs got thrown into the mix, but I'm completely serious when I say that the possibilities become infinite when we bring up the unknown. You can't come and say, "here's my beliefs, either they are true or there is no free will." You don't get to whittle beliefs down to two choices. It's just as fair and sensible that I throw a "belief" on top of it to invalidate yours.

 

[a-dev]

Personally I blame the midichlorians. Yeah, I said it.

 

[Blackthornone]

Soul is the primitive concept. Concepts are not static. They expand as knowledge regarding their referent expands. The concept of consciousness is the fully realized concept of soul.

I told you last time why your nonsense about free will being impossible in a fundamentally material universe was nonsense. If you'd like to finally answer that argument, feel free. But don't try to assert what I dismantled as if I never tore it to shreds. Free will exists in this universe and this universe is fundamentally material.

Prove otherwise.

I don't recall you ever tearing it to shreds. There is only one possible future in a totally physically based system. Randomness cannot exist in it. Any "random" number generator" has a design. That design determines what the outcome will be. It might be more complicated than someone could consciously understand well enough to know it isn't really random, but it still isn't random.
A totally physical universe would be like one massive computer program. There is only one possible outcome at any given moment, unless acted upon by an outside force. The player is that outside force. You could also insert a generator inside of it that starts its sequence based upon the time, or if more advanced, the temperature, the humidity, the atmospheric pressure, ect. Perhaps you could design each circuit to be a little different, to make certain connections happen more often, or make outcomes happen based upon electricity spikes in your power.
You cannot have free will in a fully contained system from which all things in it originated as a result of everything that happened in that system with all of the materials and therefore the limitations in it.

The idea of a totally physical reality and free will are mutually exclusive.
You cannot logically have both.
Everything in a system is interconnected and affects everything else.
Nothing in a totally physical universe can be totally independent from anything else. Everything affects it and determines it's ultimate outcome.

Souls are intelligences that exist independently from the system and thus can resist many influences in the environment. In a totally physical universe, nothing is independent.


You can only have an independent consciousness in a system if your consciousness was created independently from it.

 

[devilof76]

Whatever you say, bub.

 

[BadMuthaDude]

Free Willy.

Why waste your time on free will anyway? You wake up in the morning and choose cereal or toast or something else. Whether that's free will or the illusion of free will, who cares? It really has no relevance on your life unless you're sitting there thinking, "Golly gee, am I really choosing cornflakes or is it predestined?" You're not going to prove one way or another.