POTC: AWE Discussion - WITH SPOILERS

[piccolodaimaoh]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I never treat wikipedia as an all-encompassing, authoritative source on any topic, especially one that is clearly marked as "original research" and "contains unverified claims". It may be some nice speculation, but it is hardly definitive.

All that we know is that the first Brethren Court, following the instructions given by Davy Jones, bound Calypso, and that they did so before any of the current pirate lords were born. It could have been as "recent" as 70 years before AWE, but it could also have been as long as 200 years.

Point taken, but Wikipedia is not bad as Cliff Notes, plus they do list their sources on the bottom of the article.
If you check out the timeline it cites a lot of info based from parts in the Pirates movies so I am pretty sure it is realiable.

Just an ammendment to a previous post, I wrote Davy Jones is 210 years old but he is, according to the timeline, 240 years old.

Whether you trust Wikipedia or not I do suggest you checkout the timeline. Here is a link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Pirates_of_the_Caribbean_films

 

[scubasteve]

Here's a question -

After Norrington died (and freed Elizabeth), why didn't the Dutchman immediately go after the Empress??? The Dutchman was certainly fast enough to catch the Empress and certainly had the firepower to destroy it.

If I remember correctly, Mercer said the Black Pearl was the only ship "that could outrun the Dutchman."

They could have captured Elizabeth (who was a pirate lord) and held her for ransom, thus turning everything in East India Co.'s favor.

Anyone care to tackle this question?

 

[piccolodaimaoh]

Anyone care to tackle this question?

A possible reason is that without Norrington keeping eye over Jones there would be no need to follow orders.
In this movie much of Jones' motivation is the East India Trading company holding his heart hostage. Whatever orders he took from EIT he begrudgingly performed the task.
Plus, they really posed no threat to Davy Jones.

 

[The Mike]

Once Norrington was dead Jones was free to do what he pleased until someone in the East India Trading Company took notice, letting the Empress get away was an "F" you to Beckett because he could have easily smiled and said I wasn't ordered to. At that point Jones was tired of playing lapdog and certainly wouldn't have gone above and beyond. He would have loved to tell Beckett that he got them but one of his own let him go.

As for Barbossa, he didn't hate being immortal he hated being the Living Dead because of all those reasons. If he hated being immortal he wouldn't be chasing Immortality at the end. He wanted to be immortal in terms of living forever not undead forever.

 

[scubasteve]

Once Norrington was dead Jones was free to do what he pleased until someone in the East India Trading Company took notice, letting the Empress get away was an "F" you to Beckett because he could have easily smiled and said I wasn't ordered to. At that point Jones was tired of playing lapdog and certainly wouldn't have gone above and beyond. He would have loved to tell Beckett that he got them but one of his own let him go.

Yes, Jones was free to do what he wanted for about 10 seconds. If you remember correctly, the Dutchman crew scurried into the captain's cabin and found Mercer who said the Dutchman is under "my command."

So...back to my question, why didn't Mercer chase the Empress down, eh??

 

[The Mike]

Lol. 10 seconds of bliss. Mercer was Beckett's right hand man. Its probably a good assumption that Mercer wouldn't do anything unless ordered to by Beckett. Not to mention that if Norrington released the Pirates then he'd have a good notion that their plan of ambush at Shipwreck Cove was also leaked and he needed to get back to Beckett to form a "Plan B"...

 

[KitFisto]

Yes, Jones was free to do what he wanted for about 10 seconds. If you remember correctly, the Dutchman crew scurried into the captain's cabin and found Mercer who said the Dutchman is under "my command."

So...back to my question, why didn't Mercer chase the Empress down, eh??

I'd give it more than 10 seconds in real time. He went to get his heart fisrt before doing anything. Once the other guy ( forgot his name ) had his heart and stated he was in command then Jones was under control again, but the guy that now had command of the heart may not have realized all that was going on as far as the escape and Jones didn't volunteer the info.

Or, they decided it was ok to let all the Pirate lords go so they would gather together and wipe them all out at once.

 

[scubasteve]

I'd give it more than 10 seconds in real time. He went to get his heart fisrt before doing anything. Once the other guy ( forgot his name ) had his heart and stated he was in command then Jones was under control again, but the guy that now had command of the heart may not have realized all that was going on as far as the escape and Jones didn't volunteer the info.

Or, they decided it was ok to let all the Pirate lords go so they would gather together and wipe them all out at once.

Oh, ok. My bad. More than 10 seconds. But, I am almost 100% sure that Mercer knew of their escape.

Anyways, if he decided "it was ok" to let Elizabeth go, I think it was poor judgement on his/EIC's part. Although, she probably would have found a way out with or without Norrington's (or anyone else's) help.

 

[The Mike]

You also have to remember Elizabeth was worth more alive than dead. Beckett had a deal with Jack to go to Shipwreck Cove but after the destruction left in his escape his ship was well on its way with no following. While Will was leaving behind "bread crumbs", Elizabeth heading towards Shipwreck Cove with the Dutchman in tow just gave another lead to where the Pirates were having their final stand. Why kill one pirate when she can lead you to dozens?

 

[The Mike]

So Johnny Depp has unofficially agreed to do another but word is that the director has had enough Pirates. Should they continue if they can't get the same director intact?

 

[MaulFan]

It would depend on the director's approach, I know many felt X3 lost some with a new director, but I thought for the most part, it felt like it belonged in the series, as long as the writing team stays the same and the director recognizes Depp and any other returning cast have a good handle on their characters and leaves much to them, I think other films would be enjoyable. I also view this as, Gore Verbinski's trilogy is complete, the story is rounded off enough and it could be left as is without future installments and there's enough closure to feel ok, so since more films would almost be a new trilogy or series, a new director would make it unique which would be good, as long as overall, the films are true to what has been set as the POTC bar.

 

[oxbeard]

Back to POTC land for a minute

I've been mulling something over for the past few days and just can't get it out of my head.


Had the storyline been different and Tia Dalma not brought Barbossa back to the land of the living, would that in term mean Rigetti would have been a pirate lord since he was in possession of the piece of 8 and Barbossa had not had time to pass it on to another captain prior to his death?

And to take the point further what about the time span where Barbossa was dead. Could Rigetti have stepped up and claim the position of Pirate Lord? This of course assuming he could have maintained the nerve long enough without having the eye actually pop out and go rolling around the deck.

 

[The Mike]

No. Righetti would not have been Pirate Lord. The Piece of Eight must be given, that's why Sao Fang had to give it willingly to Elizabeth. Righetti was just in possession but never owner of the piece. If the piece could have been just taken they wouldn't have needed to bring Jack back to the land of the living but simply take his piece from him and leave him in the locker. Even if that were not the case Righetti doesn't seem to have enough nerve or enough foresight to simply take hold of the power available.

 

[oxbeard]

No. Righetti would not have been Pirate Lord. The Piece of Eight must be given, that's why Sao Fang had to give it willingly to Elizabeth. Righetti was just in possession but never owner of the piece. If the piece could have been just taken they wouldn't have needed to bring Jack back to the land of the living but simply take his piece from him and leave him in the locker. Even if that were not the case Righetti doesn't seem to have enough nerve or enough foresight to simply take hold of the power available.

That makes complete sense and I have thought from that angle as well. The part that is difficult for me is wondering why there wasn't a law from the Codex in place to handle such an occurance of the Pirate Lord dying and not passing the piece along.

If there were one in place all they would have had to do like you said is go to Davy Jones' Locker and get the piece of eight instead of bringing
Jack back.

Obviously that wouldn't work into the story line of AWE, but is that simply and inconsistency to help the plot move along?

 

[Agent0028]

Considering that the life of a pirate has alot of occupational hazards would you think there would be some sort of provision for death without passing it on. I think it was a wee bit of a plot hole as far as that part goes. I would say Rigetti would be a pirate lord being in possession of the piece of eight, possession being 9/10 of the law. Plus their pirates and its really more guidelines than actual rules anyways.

 

[darthviper107]

Well, Rigetti isn't really an evil character and was probably trying to keep it to himself. I don't think Pintel knew about it since in the first film he was talking about buying him a glass one instead of a wooden one (although technically that wouldn't make a difference since that line wasn't written with any sequels in mind).

But perhaps there's some sort of curse on the pieces of eight that the pirate lord has to actually give it to someone else for them to take their place instead of them just taking the piece of eight.

 

[scubasteve]

Don't remember this from the movie...perhaps a deleted scene?

 

[MaulFan]

Rigetti was written as a very foolish, bumbling character. Knowing the intelligence of Barbossa, it's likely he'd have never told Rigetti the significance of the eye and merely asked him to hold onto it with some means of threat to encourage Rigetti not to slip up. Had Barbossa remained dead, odds are it would have become a lost piece of eight unless Rigetti or someone knowing of him having the eye, came to know of it's siginificance.

 

[The Mike]

Exactly MaulFan. My wife pointed out the contradiction with the line of thought that the Piece of Eight has to be officially passed. In AWE, Barbossa clips Jack's Piece of Eight from him during the stand-off. It isn't obviously given just taken. Why they didn't just remove it from Jack in the Locker is still unanswered.

I have to agree with MF that Righetti didn't know what he had only that it was important to Barbossa and fit the purpose of an eye filler. He probably held it dear because it meant he didn't have to wear a patch. The whole idea of possession creating a Pirate Lord though is rubbish I think, sure you have the Piece of Eight but that doesn't equate to the whole deal or if you really think about it Jack the Monkey had the eyeball on several occassion during the Trilogy does that mean every time he held onto it he was a Pirate Lord?

Also remember one thing, when Sao Fang gave his piece to Elizabeth he made her officially the Captain of his ship. My guess is a Pirate Lord has two criteria, that they have the Piece of Eight and that they are a Captain. Righetti would obviously not been Pirate Lord because he never was Captain of his own ship.

 

[Agent0028]

Had Barbossa tried to leave Jack in the locker and only take his piece of eight I suspect Elizabeth, Will (possibly not since he really just wanted the Pearl) and Gibbs etc would have fought against him. Plus I don't think Barbossa knew what the piece of eight was. When everyone is handing over their piece of eight Jack reaches up and touches his but didn't put it in the bowl and brought up Sao Feng's absence as a distraction. But they cut to Barbossa right after Jack touches the medallion and the look on his face was something like, "So that's what it is." At least that's how it looked to me.

Needing to be a captain to be a pirate lord makes sense.