Presidential Debate McCain vs Obama Round 2

[Bannister]

I do find that Obama cover they showed pretty funny too.

 

[LChinoz]

Unless the cover reveals Palin is sporting a Tom Selleck mustache I see no problem with it.

 

[Bannister]

Honestly I see their point, I just think the way they are ^^^^^ing is hilarious.

 

[Mesa]

Why socialism will fail

https://www.fee.org/publications/the-freeman/article.asp?aid=4014

In a capitalist economy, incentives are of the utmost importance. Market prices, the profit-and-loss system of accounting, and private property rights provide an efficient, interrelated system of incentives to guide and direct economic behavior. Capitalism is based on the theory that incentives matter!

Under socialism, incentives either play a minimal role or are ignored totally. A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity. By failing to emphasize incentives, socialism is a theory inconsistent with human nature and is therefore doomed to fail. Socialism is based on the theory that incentives don't matter!

From our experience with price controls on gasoline and the long lines at the pump and general inconvenience, we get an insight into what happens under socialism where every price in the economy is controlled. The collapse of socialism is due in part to the chaos and inefficiency that result from artificial prices. The information content of a controlled price is always distorted. This in turn distorts the incentives mechanism of prices under socialism. Administered prices are always either too high or too low, which then creates constant shortages and surpluses. Market prices are the only way to transmit information that will create the incentives to ensure economic efficiency.

Profits and Losses

Socialism also collapsed because of its failure to operate under a competitive, profit-and-loss system of accounting. A profit system is an effective monitoring mechanism which continually evaluates the economic performance of every business enterprise. The firms that are the most efficient and most successful at serving the public interest are rewarded with profits. Firms that operate inefficiently and fail to serve the public interest are penalized with losses.

By rewarding success and penalizing failure, the profit system provides a strong disciplinary mechanism which continually redirects resources away from weak, failing, and inefficient firms toward those firms which are the most efficient and successful at serving the public. A competitive profit system ensures a constant reoptimization of resources and moves the economy toward greater levels of efficiency. Unsuccessful firms cannot escape the strong discipline of the marketplace under a profit/loss system. Competition forces companies to serve the public interest or suffer the consequences.

Under central planning, there is no profit-and-loss system of accounting to accurately measure the success or failure of various programs. Without profits, there is no way to discipline firms that fail to serve the public interest and no way to reward firms that do. There is no efficient way to determine which programs should be expanded and which ones should be contracted or terminated.

Without competition, centrally planned economies do not have an effective incentive structure to coordinate economic activity. Without incentives the results are a spiraling cycle of poverty and misery. Instead of continually reallocating resources towards greater efficiency, socialism falls into a vortex of inefficiency and failure.

 

[Mesa]

"Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth into a small section of society who control capital, and creates an unequal society."

Socialists belief*

Thus, the rich are running the country. And when they aren't hurting no one is, right?

Let me give you a very simplified example.

Lets say you are a very hard worker who never takes break and works your butt off. I'm a lazy piece of crap that shows up late, takes smoke breaks every 30 minutes, makes mistakes, and basically just cuase the other to work harder because of my presence.

You would expect to be paid more for your extra effort and good work. Under socialism, you would be paid exactly the same as me. The government/state determines what we should make. You aren't rewarded for you extra efforts.

So, after awhile, what do you do? You stop working as hard since you aren't being paid any extra for the extra effort. Everyone does. Performance goes down. No one is motivated to excel or exceed expectations. Work performance becomes stagnant because there is no incentive to work harder.

So yes, under socialism, everyone is treated equally and you won't have an upper, middle, lower class. Everyone will just be moved to the lower / lower-middle class.

 

[RoboDad]

I just find it a tad hypocritical that Obama was so criticized by the right for not wearing a pin. When McCain does the exact same thing (not wearing the pin, voting against a bill funding the troops, etc) they are completely silent. Now Obama starts to wear one and he's accused of pandering. Even if Obama, or McCain for that matter, does something "correct", the other side will almost never acknowledge it because they are stuck in the myopic hater "everything they do is wrong" mode.

Oh, I agree completely. I wasn't disagreeing with your point at all. My point was that the "flag pin" issue was tangential to the story in the article, which was the display of flags and images that are, IMO, far more than just "inappropriate", but grotesquely un-American. We aren't, or at least shouldn't be electing a dictator. We shouldn't glamorize the lives and policies of the "leaders" of those countries, especially within a campaign office of a presidential candidate.

That is, to me, unconscionable.

 

[Starkiller]

Let me give you a very simplified example.

Lets say you are a very hard worker who never takes break and works your butt off. I'm a lazy piece of crap that shows up late, takes smoke breaks every 30 minutes, makes mistakes, and basically just cuase the other to work harder because of my presence.

You would expect to be paid more for your extra effort and good work. Under socialism, you would be paid exactly the same as me. The government/state determines what we should make. You aren't rewarded for you extra efforts.

So, after awhile, what do you do? You stop working as hard since you aren't being paid any extra for the extra effort. Everyone does. Performance goes down. No one is motivated to excel or exceed expectations. Work performance becomes stagnant because there is no incentive to work harder.

So yes, under socialism, everyone is treated equally and you won't have an upper, middle, lower class. Everyone will just be moved to the lower / lower-middle class.

Dude that happens right now. I work my ass off at work, when others just stand around and they make the same amount as I do. I sweat, I work 8 hours days sometimes without breaks then the company put a lock on raises. I've been their 7 years and make about the same amount as someone who has been there 2 years or less.

So in term I stopped working harder because I am no rewarded for my extra efforts.

 

[Mesa]

Dude that happens right now. I work my ass off at work, when others just stand around and they make the same amount as I do. I sweat, I work 8 hours days sometimes without breaks then the company put a lock on raises. I've been their 7 years and make about the same amount as someone who has been there 2 years or less.

So in term I stopped working harder because I am no rewarded for my extra efforts.

In what field? That matters. When I was younger working fast food, there was little to no recognition for hard work. But in other fields, managers recognize hard work and should reward you for them. If not, quit and work somewhere else for more. But if the State/federal government begins to run business, (i.e. recent bailout plan), that state can just say, "Anyone who is a cook will make $8 an hour, anyone who is a garbage man will make $6, anyone who is a dentist will make $10," regardless of how good you are as an individual. Where's the incentive to try harder?

Obviously this is a very simplified example, but the idea is the same.

 

[tomandshell]

Let's keep this thing civil everyone

Why start now?

 

[RoboDad]

Why start now?

 

[nefarius1]

"Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth into a small section of society who control capital, and creates an unequal society."

Socialists belief*

Thus, the rich are running the country. And when they aren't hurting no one is, right?

You are aware that Nancy Pelosi and John Kerry are probably the two richest members in Congress and the Senate. Kerry's married to money and takes a paycheck as Senator even though he shows up to vote maybe half the time. Just sayin'. As far as socialism goes, it's good in theory, but looked what happened in the USSR, China and Cuba. There was an equal distribution of wealth except for the power elite who lived like kings. You can't honestly tell me that if liberals wanted to even the playing field so to speak, the likes of Gore, Pelosi, Kennedy or whomever would lose any of their personal wealth.
I believe they call them limosine liberals. I know because I come from Massachussetts, bluest of the blue states. Even though we're liberal, we've had 20+ years of Republican governors because the democrats taxed everyone to death and drove big business and jobs out of state. My point is that socialism, capitalism, ect. may be good ideas, but in the human hands they can abused and manipulated to benefit the few. Power corrupts and the right or left are not immune. Trust me my friend I have no love for Bush, but it turned my stomach when I saw Pelosi with that big grin of hers touting the bailout bill. $700 billion of our money plus all the pork tacked on. Signed by Republicans and Democrats. If people want to change things they need to clean house. Forget party loyalty and throw ALL the bums out. It's the only way to send them a message. I will be voting against my Senator, John Kerry this election. Sorry, I needed to rant

 

[The Ween]

In what field? That matters. When I was younger working fast food, there was little to no recognition for hard work. But in other fields, managers recognize hard work and should reward you for them. If not, quit and work somewhere else for more. But if the State/federal government begins to run business, (i.e. recent bailout plan), that state can just say, "Anyone who is a cook will make $8 an hour, anyone who is a garbage man will make $6, anyone who is a dentist will make $10," regardless of how good you are as an individual. Where's the incentive to try harder?

Obviously this is a very simplified example, but the idea is the same.

I work for a school system. That's what they do already!

 

[The Ween]

You are aware that Nancy Pelosi and John Kerry are probably the two richest members in Congress and the Senate. Kerry's married to money and takes a paycheck as Senator even though he shows up to vote maybe half the time. Just sayin'. As far as socialism goes, it's good in theory, but looked what happened in the USSR, China and Cuba. There was an equal distribution of wealth except for the power elite who lived like kings. You can't honestly tell me that if liberals wanted to even the playing field so to speak, the likes of Gore, Pelosi, Kennedy or whomever would lose any of their personal wealth.
I believe they call them limosine liberals. I know because I come from Massachussetts, bluest of the blue states. Even though we're liberal, we've had 20+ years of Republican governors because the democrats taxed everyone to death and drove big business and jobs out of state. My point is that socialism, capitalism, ect. may be good ideas, but in the human hands they can abused and manipulated to benefit the few. Power corrupts and the right or left are not immune. Trust me my friend I have no love for Bush, but it turned my stomach when I saw Pelosi with that big grin of hers touting the bailout bill. $700 billion of our money plus all the pork tacked on. Signed by Republicans and Democrats. If people want to change things they need to clean house. Forget party loyalty and throw ALL the bums out. It's the only way to send them a message. I will be voting against my Senator, John Kerry this election. Sorry, I needed to rant

Until some of those Congressmen get out of there, nothing is going to get done no matter who is in.

btw....ALOT of Congressmen don't show up to vote. I guess it must not be part of the job. I think I'll stay home from work most of the time and see if I still get paid.

 

[Starkiller]

Never said anything about Kerry!? LOL, that's cuz he married into Ketchup!

Mesa: I'm working at a grocery store in produce while I finish my last semester of college.

 

[nefarius1]

Never said anything about Kerry!? LOL, that's cuz he married into Ketchup!

Mesa: I'm working at a grocery store in produce while I finish my last semester of college.

Is your store unionized? I used to work for a supermarket and I was in a union. There's definately no incentive to work hard being in a union.

 

[gdb]

Well when it comes to socialism vs. capitalism, I think a balance is good. For instance, going to the library and paying less than half a buck to mail a letter and having socialized fire protection is working out pretty well for America. Now if only people could see thier doctor without going through the bureaucracy of the insurance industry and consulting an accountant -- or just being able to go without going bankrupt would be nice.

 

[gdb]

Well, this just in:

Palin Abused Power, Ethics Report Finds
"Troopergate" Probe Finds GOP Vice Presidential Candidate Unlawfully Abused Authority In Firing State Employee.

https://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/10/politics/main4514596.shtml

 

[LChinoz]

Well, this just in:

Palin Abused Power, Ethics Report Finds
"Troopergate" Probe Finds GOP Vice Presidential Candidate Unlawfully Abused Authority In Firing State Employee.

https://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/10/politics/main4514596.shtml

Saw that. She broke no laws but this will not go over well in the McCain camp.

 

[gdb]

Saw that. She broke no laws but this will not go over well in the McCain camp.

Maybe not, but it sure reveals that her idea of being Mavericky is acting like ^^^^ Cheney. No wonder she said in the debate that she wants to increase the power of the Vice President.

EDIT: I didn't know that typing the first name of our Vice President is forbidden.

 

[LChinoz]

Maybe not, but it sure reveals that her idea of being Mavericky is acting like ^^^^ Cheney. No wonder she said in the debate that she wants to increase the power of the Vice President.

I agree. This could be the nail in the coffin.

EDIT: NOW REPORTS SAY SHE DID BREAK THE LAW. WOW!

https://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/10/palin.investigation/index.html