RATE or REVIEW The Last Movie You Watched.

[Victοr]

Not at all. An alternate timeline is always an alternate reality, not all the alternate realities have comicbook follow ups but theyre always considered alternate realities.

And thats not fictional, thats legit science brah

Plus they hinted at the new gods, which are "omniversal"

Plus CW Flash

That's why I said we should wait until each fictional Us' parameters and laws are detailed. Fictional universes don't have to comply to our rules and laws, since they're fictional. Case in point: When Doom uses his time machine, he doesn't create divergent timelines or alternate universes. He influences the one he's in, without creating branches.

Say, the course of events in U0 is: A -> B -> C. When Doom uses his machine, he doesn't do this:

A -> B -> C ...
|_> D -> E ...

He does this:

A -> B' -> C -> ...

By the same logic, we should wait until we see how the DCEU works. Again, it may contradict everything we know so far due to our studies, but it's fictional. The Universal Rules of the Care Bears Universe are as valid as the ones from Red Dead Redemption. The fact that one is bat**** crazy doesn't amount to much, since they're both fake.

Anyway, CW Flash has introduced a more fleshed out Multiverse which has its basis in reality, but that's seperate from the films. It wasn't explored in DS anyway, it was just a nod/tease.

 

[pturtle]

X-Men Apocalypse: 5.5/10

Yeah, it was disappointing. I LOVE all the X-Men movies (not counting the Wolvie solo movies) except 3, and I like pretty much everything by Singer, even Superman and Jack the Giant Slayer(!). But this one was just beyond his abilities. I blame the script, really. Way too much to have to tackle in one movie. It tried to do an origin story to way too many characters and it just felt so disjointed in the beginning jumping from one plot to the other. The Striker thing seemed to come out of nowhere and was ultimately a pretty useless subplot. And it was oddly a very straightforward plot just bogged down by too many characters. Once they got to Cairo and fought Apoc, it was pretty good.

I didn’t even like the Quicksilver scene which was the highlight of the previous one. I didn’t like how they handled Scott, making him a “rebel” cool kid who wanted to get out of the mansion and go hang out in the mall! And I didn’t like

Spoiler

Jean using her “Phoenix” powers, since the Phoenix powers are very specific to that entity taking over her, and her rising from the ashes like a phoenix! They could have had Jean defeat Apoc, but just not hint at that Phoenix power by showing the flaming bird.

Still miles better than #3.

I agree with everything, the movie just seemed rushed. The script was a major problem, but I also think the direction wasn't great either, and you can tell by the 3rd act there was some budget issues. I'd like Singer to stay on as a producer but a new director with a fresh take on these characters needs to take over.

 

[ZaCHw117]

They did? So that means actual alternate versions of characters and stuff?

Because otherwise DC did the Flash time-travel (which is essentially an alternate reality) before.

agreed, they beat marvel to the punch on that one.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

They did? So that means actual alternate versions of characters and stuff?

Because otherwise DC did the Flash time-travel (which is essentially an alternate reality) before.

Does time travel count as a multiverse? If that's the case, X Men did that in DOFP. I guess, to me a multiverse means different worlds and universes, not just time traveling within a single timeline or world.

The Flash tv show has the time travel which can create alternate time lines and change things in Barry's world, but they also have a multiverse that involves other worlds/versions of earth that has nothing to do with Barry time traveling.

I haven't seen DS, so I don't know what kind of multiverse they're showing. I know he has the time infinity stone, so maybe he's just time traveling like Flash...which to me is not a real multiverse.

 

[Victοr]

Does time travel count as a multiverse? If that's the case, X Men did that in DOFP. I guess, to me a multiverse means different worlds and universes, not just time traveling within a single timeline or world.

The Flash tv show has the time travel which can create alternate time lines and change things in Barry's world, but they also have a multiverse that involves other worlds/versions of earth that has nothing to do with Barry time traveling.

I haven't seen DS, so I don't know what kind of multiverse they're showing. I know he has the time infinity stone, so maybe he's just time traveling like Flash...which to me is not a real multiverse.

See, that's what I'm talking about. We still don't know how time works in either the MCU or the DCEU, so I'd say we wait a bit before we classify time travel as the introduction to the Multiverse.

Spoiler

In the film, using the Stone Strange manipulates time like we would do with a video, going back and forth in a fixed set of events. This goes against the typical version of "time-travel/manipulation", as it's essentially a localised time bubble.

As it stands, in the flick the Ancient One talks about the Multiverse, as Universes on top of Universes and so on and so forth. It doesn't mention how they came into being or go into detail about the implications of time travel, but it sets up a clear Multiverse of many different Universes co-existing at the same time.

 

[mah45]

The Jungle Book- 9.5/10 Fantastic movie

 

[Darkseed]

Dr Strange - typical introduction film that was entertaining.....7/10

 

[GasparZizou]

That's why I said we should wait until each fictional Us' parameters and laws are detailed. Fictional universes don't have to comply to our rules and laws, since they're fictional.

They have to comply as much as they comply with the rest of physics. Plus in comics it has been the same deal for decades. Multiverse.

In fact, when it became multiverse, the things that weren't multiverse didn't conflict at all so there wasn't even any retcon.

Case in point: When Doom uses his time machine, he doesn't create divergent timelines or alternate universes. He influences the one he's in, without creating branches.

Say, the course of events in U0 is: A -> B -> C. When Doom uses his machine, he doesn't do this:

A -> B -> C ...
|_> D -> E ...

He does this:

A -> B' -> C -> ...

It actually could be either or, from your perspective you are creating a new timeline, but from the universe's perspective all timelines already exist at all times, so you're either "creating" one or jumping from timeline to timeline.

It's still the same thing, Multiverse.

By the same logic, we should wait until we see how the DCEU works. Again, it may contradict everything we know so far due to our studies, but it's fictional. The Universal Rules of the Care Bears Universe are as valid as the ones from Red Dead Redemption. The fact that one is bat**** crazy doesn't amount to much, since they're both fake.

Nope. And again, since they hinted at the New Gods that pretty much settles it. If there was any doubt to begin with.

Anyway, CW Flash has introduced a more fleshed out Multiverse which has its basis in reality, but that's seperate from the films. It wasn't explored in DS anyway, it was just a nod/tease.

They've said movies, tv and comics are part of the DC multiverse actually, even movies before the DCEU.

And IIRC the MCU also became part of the alternate earths in the MU recently.

 

[GasparZizou]

Does time travel count as a multiverse? If that's the case, X Men did that in DOFP. I guess, to me a multiverse means different worlds and universes, not just time traveling within a single timeline or world.

The Flash tv show has the time travel which can create alternate time lines and change things in Barry's world, but they also have a multiverse that involves other worlds/versions of earth that has nothing to do with Barry time traveling.

I haven't seen DS, so I don't know what kind of multiverse they're showing. I know he has the time infinity stone, so maybe he's just time traveling like Flash...which to me is not a real multiverse.

Yes. A multiverse implies changes can be infinite yet so small that you could have alternate realities where you can't tell the difference, and other that are so different they defy comprehension.

You usually have stories about time travel or alternate realities that are substantially different, but they're part of the same topic.

See, that's what I'm talking about. We still don't know how time works in either the MCU or the DCEU, so I'd say we wait a bit before we classify time travel as the introduction to the Multiverse.

But we do.

Spoiler

In the film, using the Stone Strange manipulates time like we would do with a video, going back and forth in a fixed set of events. This goes against the typical version of "time-travel/manipulation", as it's essentially a localised time bubble.

But that's the usual stuff, since time can be viewed as a dimension with 2 directions you "could" move back and forth like DS does, it's only when you make a change in a given point in that time dimension that you "create" a new timeline, but it's still the same thing.

As it stands, in the flick the Ancient One talks about the Multiverse, as Universes on top of Universes and so on and so forth. It doesn't mention how they came into being or go into detail about the implications of time travel, but it sets up a clear Multiverse of many different Universes co-existing at the same time.

Still the same thing.

When you said "we have to wait to see the rules" and stuff I thought you meant the alternatives to Multiverse like the cosmic patches theory... As it is you're just referring to different parts of the same thing as if time travel was foreign to the multiverse, when in reality is either part of or one and the same thing.

 

[Victοr]

They have to comply as much as they comply with the rest of physics. Plus in comics it has been the same deal for decades. Multiverse.

In fact, when it became multiverse, the things that weren't multiverse didn't conflict at all so there wasn't even any retcon.

Eh, they're fictional Universes. They can just say that blending water, cranberries, coca-cola and lemon together opens a portal to another Earth, and it'd still be valid. They don't necessarily have to follow our rules of reality. I mean, look at Toon--Force.

It actually could be either or, from your perspective you are creating a new timeline, but from the universe's perspective all timelines already exist at all times, so you're either "creating" one or jumping from timeline to timeline.

It's still the same thing, Multiverse.

Thing is though... it's not like that. In the Marvel Universe, when people use Time-Travel, things go down like you said. Divergent realities and all that. But, when Doom uses his Time-Machine, due to the Doomlocks, he doesn't "create" a new timeline. He modifies the past one and events change. No two realities exist at the same time, the old one and the modified one. Only the latter. So when he time travels to an earlier point of the 616 and changes something, the 616 itself changes. Same goes for Kang.

And that's just the way it is. It might go against what we know about the Multiverse and what Time-Travel usually does, but that's the way it is. it's Comics, so they have fictional rules. It's why Doom is the only person who can traverse the timeline without breaking things.

Nope. And again, since they hinted at the New Gods that pretty much settles it. If there was any doubt to begin with.

Eh, I guess that's fair. But GotG introduced the Celestials* as well, so there's that.

*There are many origins, but the most widely accepted one is that they were created by the Fulcrum/God, so they're Multiversal.

They've said movies, tv and comics are part of the DC multiverse actually, even movies before the DCEU.

Was that ever confirmed though? I'd read interviews and such, but only about the CW shows and the DCEU. It hasn't been shown on film though, that's what I'm saying.

And IIRC the MCU also became part of the alternate earths in the MU recently.

I don't think so, outherwise it'd have to be dragged into Secret Wars. The MCU is not connected to the comics. The Rami and Webb Spider-Films had a cameo in Spider-Verse though.

But we do.

I'd say not completely. Look at Doctor Who. There there are fixed points which can never be changed, all the while the Doctor can't move between Dimensions. In the Marvel U though, there are no fixed points. So, I'd say that there are still thingd we have to know about the inner workings of each Universe.

But that's the usual stuff, since time can be viewed as a dimension with 2 directions you "could" move back and forth like DS does, it's only when you make a change in a given point in that time dimension that you "create" a new timeline, but it's still the same thing.

Yeah, I know, I was just pointing out the extent of Strange's time manipulation in the flick. He still hasn't displayed anything like the books.

Still the same thing.

I know, I'm just saying what the Multiverse nod in the flick was. There's not much more than that, hence, a nod.

When you said "we have to wait to see the rules" and stuff I thought you meant the alternatives to Multiverse like the cosmic patches theory... As it is you're just referring to different parts of the same thing as if time travel was foreign to the multiverse, when in reality is either part of or one and the same thing.

Eh, just because something is proven through mathematical formulas in our universe doesn't mean that the same holds for fictional ones. I'm not saying you're wrong as far as RL theorems and CB "science", but I'd rather wait a bit until they properly explore the concept.

 

[GasparZizou]

Eh, they're fictional Universes. They can just say that blending water, cranberries, coca-cola and lemon together opens a portal to another Earth, and it'd still be valid. They don't necessarily have to follow our rules of reality. I mean, look at Toon--Force.

Nope.

We have Mr. Mxyzptlk too, and his stuff is just a rationalization of 5D antics. It looks like cartoon logic to us.

Thing is though... it's not like that. In the Marvel Universe, when people use Time-Travel, things go down like you said. Divergent realities and all that. But, when Doom uses his Time-Machine, due to the Doomlocks, he doesn't "create" a new timeline. He modifies the past one and events change. No two realities exist at the same time, the old one and the modified one. Only the latter. So when he time travels to an earlier point of the 616 and changes something, the 616 itself changes. Same goes for Kang.

And that's just the way it is. It might go against what we know about the Multiverse and what Time-Travel usually does, but that's the way it is. it's Comics, so they have fictional rules. It's why Doom is the only person who can traverse the timeline without breaking things.

Then I don't know what kind of ******* wrote that because that's not how it works and I guarantee you the MU itself contradicts that in countless occasions, some come to mind right now, mainly with the X-men and Thor.

Either that or Doom is dumb enough to not know he can't not "create" alternate realities. You just can't, it's axiomatically dumb

So I'd blame that one on the writer, whoever it is.

Eh, I guess that's fair. But GotG introduced the Celestials* as well, so there's that.

*There are many origins, but the most widely accepted one is that they were created by the Fulcrum/God, so they're Multiversal.

Yeah but they're not omniversal, it's not the same thing, there exist Celestials across the multiverse whereas the New Gods are above the multiverse and have no "alternates". Meaning a celestial could very well exist within a universe without a multiverse.

Although tbh, for anything CBM related, or anything at all really, the idea of any sort of Multiverse is a given for me, it's a really popular current in physics right now, with solid reasoning behind it, it's hard to think it may not be true. The alternatives are like I said, the Cosmic patches theory and such, and those are lame, although for the purposes of this discussion they don't change the discussion much, really.

If anything, the Multiverse is easy stuff, Time travel is way harder to think about and could even be physically impossible.

Was that ever confirmed though? I'd read interviews and such, but only about the CW shows and the DCEU. It hasn't been shown on film though, that's what I'm saying.

The multiversity between TV and Movies hasn't been shown obviously only hinted at, although I think I remember seeing something around the time before Rebirth but don't quote me on that.

But within the DCEU it has, in BvS.

I don't think so, outherwise it'd have to be dragged into Secret Wars. The MCU is not connected to the comics. The Rami and Webb Spider-Films had a cameo in Spider-Verse though.

I think I saw once that the MCU was earth-whateverwhatever number, along the Ultimates and such.

I'd say not completely. Look at Doctor Who. There there are fixed points which can never be changed, all the while the Doctor can't move between Dimensions. In the Marvel U though, there are no fixed points. So, I'd say that there are still thingd we have to know about the inner workings of each Universe.

I don't know about Dr. Who, but the fact that he "can't move between Dimensions" doesn't mean they don't exist, I'm guessing that's just a limitation set up for the tech in-show, not an intrinsic characteristic of the multiverse, don't they have alternate realities? Plus saying they can't travel between dimensions in time-travel is like saying you can't movie within our 3 dimensions as time passes, you can't exclude it.

Eh, just because something is proven through mathematical formulas in our universe doesn't mean that the same holds for fictional ones. I'm not saying you're wrong as far as RL theorems and CB "science", but I'd rather wait a bit until they properly explore the concept.

But it does, if they have regular "fake" physics rules then that extends to the multiverse.

If they have gravity and they have a multiverse, it's safe to assume they work similarly.

 

[Victοr]

Nope.

We have Mr. Mxyzptlk too, and his stuff is just a rationalization of 5D antics. It looks like cartoon logic to us.

I know, but, my whole point is that you should throw away everything you know, because every fictional universe is free to have its own set of rules.

Then I don't know what kind of ******* wrote that because that's not how it works and I guarantee you the MU itself contradicts that in countless occasions, some come to mind right now, mainly with the X-men and Thor.

Either that or Doom is dumb enough to not know he can't not "create" alternate realities. You just can't, it's axiomatically dumb

So I'd blame that one on the writer, whoever it is.

Nah, it makes sense, for two reasons:

1) Doom.

2) Magic. Doomlocks are a mix of science and magic (dark magic, white magic, all of it), so Doom can do whatever the **** he wants. Remember, magic is the cheat codes of reality. With Magic, Lucifer Morningstar created a Universe out of a magically enhanced piece of paper. It's not like Doom goes around abusing the time-stream anyway, he just uses it for gaining information, studying under legendary teachers, that stuff. Oh, and stealing Blackbeard's treasure...

Apart from Doom, every other instance of Time-Travel in the MU goes down as expected, but Vic is... special. Either way, I wouldn't think too much of it. It's fiction, and it's got magic in it, so I'd leave it at that. No need to overthink it.

Oh, and here's a fun fact: Moon Knight is a singular entity. Back in Marc Spector: MK, there was the Moon Knight version of Spider-Verse, where Marc killed every other doppelganger of him across the Multiverse. And yeah, I know that it doesn't make much sense, but... magic... So, yeah, Spector is now unique.

Yeah but they're not omniversal, it's not the same thing, there exist Celestials across the multiverse whereas the New Gods are above the multiverse and have no "alternates". Meaning a celestial could very well exist within a universe without a multiverse.

Nah, they are Omniversal according to this Origin. The Celestials are singular across the Multiverse, same thing as the Living Tribunal, TOAA, Eternity, etc, etc. Back then they were Universal, but after the Fulcrum Ret-Con they're on par with the other singular cosmic beings.

Although tbh, for anything CBM related, or anything at all really, the idea of any sort of Multiverse is a given for me, it's a really popular current in physics right now, with solid reasoning behind it, it's hard to think it may not be true. The alternatives are like I said, the Cosmic patches theory and such, and those are lame, although for the purposes of this discussion they don't change the discussion much, really.

If anything, the Multiverse is easy stuff, Time travel is way harder to think about and could even be physically impossible.

Eh, I'd rather wait and see how they handle it. DC has a fixed Multiverse (52 Earths), whereas Marvel's is ever expanding, so there's one major difference.

The multiversity between TV and Movies hasn't been shown obviously only hinted at, although I think I remember seeing something around the time before Rebirth but don't quote me on that.

But within the DCEU it has, in BvS.

Dunno, with the DCMulti having only 52 Earths, I'd consider it a waste to give two or three to the movies and shows.

I think I saw once that the MCU was earth-whateverwhatever number, along the Ultimates and such.

It's got a number since there are tie-in comics, but it's not been confirmed, kinda like "our" Universe.

I don't know about Dr. Who, but the fact that he "can't move between Dimensions" doesn't mean they don't exist, I'm guessing that's just a limitation set up for the tech in-show, not an intrinsic characteristic of the multiverse, don't they have alternate realities? Plus saying they can't travel between dimensions in time-travel is like saying you can't movie within our 3 dimensions as time passes, you can't exclude it.

According to Who-Verse, each timeline creates a new Universe, but the Doctor can't visit them. So he travels through time, messes with things, but he always resides in his native universe, even though he creates branches with each alteration.

But it does, if they have regular "fake" physics rules then that extends to the multiverse.

If they have gravity and they have a multiverse, it's safe to assume they work similarly.

Fair enough. But I'd just rather wait for some more concrete info.

 

[GasparZizou]

I know, but, my whole point is that you should throw away everything you know, because every fictional universe is free to have its own set of rules.

Nope.

Both DC and Marvel, hell, even Dragon Ball, have the exact same structure for multiverse, so does most pop-culture, which is virtually the same if not based on the actual IRL one.

There's no reason to think it should be any different.

Nah, it makes sense, for two reasons:

1) Doom.

2) Magic. Doomlocks are a mix of science and magic (dark magic, white magic, all of it), so Doom can do whatever the **** he wants. Remember, magic is the cheat codes of reality. With Magic, Lucifer Morningstar created a Universe out of a magically enhanced piece of paper. It's not like Doom goes around abusing the time-stream anyway, he just uses it for gaining information, studying under legendary teachers, that stuff. Oh, and stealing Blackbeard's treasure...

Apart from Doom, every other instance of Time-Travel in the MU goes down as expected, but Vic is... special. Either way, I wouldn't think too much of it. It's fiction, and it's got magic in it, so I'd leave it at that. No need to overthink it.

Oh, and here's a fun fact: Moon Knight is a singular entity. Back in Marc Spector: MK, there was the Moon Knight version of Spider-Verse, where Marc killed every other doppelganger of him across the Multiverse. And yeah, I know that it doesn't make much sense, but... magic... So, yeah, Spector is now unique.

It still doesn't make sense and it's still stupid, wtf, I'm mad now, who wrote this crap? Who the **** does he think he is, Brahma? Why does TOAA or the Living Tribunal let him do this? It's not overthinking it, it's just dumb. I hate when everyone thinks they're Grant Morrison lmao look I'm trippy too Like I was reading MK today and reached the part of the "othervoid" and rolled my eyes sooooo hard...

Magic is not the wild-card you think it is. It's still axiomatically stupid.

Nah, they are Omniversal according to this Origin. The Celestials are singular across the Multiverse.

No they're not, there are versions of them depending on which universe you're in.

Eh, I'd rather wait and see how they handle it. DC has a fixed Multiverse (52 Earths), whereas Marvel's is ever expanding, so there's one major difference.

No, that's not true, they have 52 earths of stuff they publish but they have more. They're both the same.

Dunno, with the DCMulti having only 52 Earths.

Again, no, that wasn't true with the New 52, it wasn't true with Convergence and it isn't true with Rebirth.

According to Who-Verse, each timeline creates a new Universe, but the Doctor can't visit them. So he travels through time, messes with things, but he always resides in his native universe, even though he creates branches with each alteration.

So there you go, I got it right. It's a made up limitation for the show, not a characteristic of their multiverse. I'm telling you, it's the same thing all over.

Fair enough. But I'd just rather wait for some more concrete info.

Like what would you think they'd change? Except put in some fake limitations like with Dr. Who but the nature of their multiverse won't change, it's like expecting gravity to go upside down because "comics are fake and can do anything".

 

[Victοr]

Nope.

Both DC and Marvel, hell, even Dragon Ball, have the exact same structure for multiverse, so does most pop-culture, which is virtually the same if not based on the actual IRL one.

There's no reason to think it should be any different.

Fair enough, I guess. But since they're fictional, I can accept anything as long as there are underlying rules. Orange + Apple = 5 is fine by me as long as Orange + Banana = 3. You get me?

It still doesn't make sense and it's still stupid, wtf, I'm mad now, who wrote this crap? Who the **** does he think he is, Brahma? Why does TOAA or the Living Tribunal let him do this? It's not overthinking it, it's just dumb. I hate when everyone thinks they're Grant Morrison lmao look I'm trippy too Like I was reading MK today and reached the part of the "othervoid" and rolled my eyes sooooo hard...

It's been there since the first few issues back in the 60s.

Magic is not the wild-card you think it is. It's still axiomatically stupid.

If I can accept that a guy "evolved" himself far enough to be able to tangle with Galactus, or that the Devil created a whole universe out of nothing, while God makes people fiery skeletons to punish sinners, then I can accept a made-up loophole for a made-up invention in a made-up universe.

No they're not, there are versions of them depending on which universe you're in.

And I'm telling you that's not exactly the case. It's never been made clear whether the Celestials in stories such as Earth X are AUs or the same thing. Their origins are many, but most put them as a tad bellow Living Tribunal, Master Order/Chaos and the like, making them Omniversal, and not simply Universal.

No, that's not true, they have 52 earths of stuff they publish but they have more. They're both the same.

So what's the point of the whole "52 Earths" thing then? Some are unnamed and most haven't even been explored. If they still have a Multiverse, why use the 52 Earths "limitation"?

So there you go, I got it right. It's a made up limitation for the show, not a characteristic of their multiverse. I'm telling you, it's the same thing all over.

Made-Up "rules" in a made-up "world" are just as valid in my book. I ain't saying that makes it different, but it's an example of another approach.

Like what would you think they'd change? Except put in some fake limitations like with Dr. Who but the nature of their multiverse won't change, it's like expecting gravity to go upside down because "comics are fake and can do anything".

But comics are fake and can do anything. So, yeah, until I get some concrete info, I'm gonna go by what I see.

 

[GasparZizou]

It's been there since the first few issues back in the 60s.

Oh ok, I thought it was a recent thing.

It's still wrong though, and dumb, it's outdated at best, to be kind, but it's somewhat forgivable from earlier comics shenanigans.

If I can accept that a guy "evolved" himself far enough to be able to tangle with Galactus, or that the Devil created a whole universe out of nothing, while God makes people fiery skeletons to punish sinners, then I can accept a made-up loophole for a made-up invention in a made-up universe.

It's not a loophole, it's dumb excuse of writing product of whimsical times.

Plus, there are allegories to represent magic or processes that were not supposed to understand (Like Lucifer and his paper), and then there's that Doom ********

And I'm telling you that's not exactly the case. It's never been made clear whether the Celestials in stories such as Earth X are AUs or the same thing. Their origins are many, but most put them as a tad bellow Living Tribunal, Master Order/Chaos and the like, making them Omniversal, and not simply Universal.

No, the Living Tribunal IS Omniversal, the celestial aren't, they're like any other character with different versions in different universes.

So what's the point of the whole "52 Earths" thing then? Some are unnamed and most haven't even been explored. If they still have a Multiverse, why use the 52 Earths "limitation"?

A tagline I guess, a culmination of Morrison's whole 52 thing.

It's not a limitation, it was just for marketing purposes and to make the "map of multiverse" easy to draw you can't draw infinite earths.

Made-Up "rules" in a made-up "world" are just as valid in my book. I ain't saying that makes it different, but it's an example of another approach.

No no, you're confusing things, a made up rule that prohibits your characters to do stuff for plot purposes does not describe the nature of your uni/multiverse.

And it's not another approach, it's the same approach I've been describing all along, because when you say multiverse, it's always the same thing.

But comics are fake and can do anything. So, yeah, until I get some concrete info, I'm gonna go by what I see.

There's already concrete enough info. But if you're waiting for gravity to be reverse just because, alright.

Still, BvS did show the whole thing.

 

[Victοr]

Oh ok, I thought it was a recent thing.

It's still wrong though, and dumb, it's outdated at best, to be kind, but it's somewhat forgivable from earlier comics shenanigans.

Eh, I don't see the problem with it. It's a made-up thing in a made-up world.

It's not a loophole, it's dumb excuse of writing product of whimsical times.

Plus, there are allegories to represent magic or processes that were not supposed to understand (Like Lucifer and his paper), and then there's that Doom ********

I'd say that Doom becoming God with a Capital G is much more unrealistic, but again, they're made up. Besides, Doom created his own set of physics and magic laws when he created his own universe using two Infinity Gauntlets back in FF.

No, the Living Tribunal IS Omniversal, the celestial aren't, they're like any other character with different versions in different universes.

By the same logic I can throw at you the Ret-Con that the Tribunal isn't Omniversal, because in Starlin's Thanos OGN Trilogy he dies and Adam Warlock becomes the new LT, even though the Beyonders killed every fragment of the Tribunal in Secret Wars. Inconsistencies exist, due to the countless retcons. As it stands, from 2007 or so and afterwards, the Celestials are considered Multiversal.

A tagline I guess, a culmination of Morrison's whole 52 thing.

It's not a limitation, it was just for marketing purposes and to make the "map of multiverse" easy to draw you can't draw infinite earths.

Eh, it's still stupid.

No no, you're confusing things, a made up rule that prohibits your characters to do stuff for plot purposes does not describe the nature of your uni/multiverse.

And it's not another approach, it's the same approach I've been describing all along, because when you say multiverse, it's always the same thing.

There's a bit more to it in the Who-Verse. There was a Universe where things, including laws of physics and everything, were manipulated to act opposite of how they should (don't quote me on that cause I'm not sure though).

There's already concrete enough info. But if you're waiting for gravity to be reverse just because, alright.

Still, BvS did show the whole thing.

Eh, honestly? I don't know and I don't really care. It's not like I can hop into my time-machine, take a trip inside a black hole and visit my alien friends in Alt-U 4546868, and the inconsistency of comic book science contradicts the real world "facts". They're made up things, in made up worlds, loosely based on theories that are based on mathematical formulas and with the minimum amount of physical evidence. Infinity War could say that TOAA is a sentient jelly bean, and JL could say that Highfather is Jesus' half-brother, and it'd be just as valid for me.

 

[GasparZizou]

Eh, I don't see the problem with it. It's a made-up thing in a made-up world.

That's a nice cop-put but its still dumb.

I'd say that Doom becoming God with a Capital G is much more unrealistic, but again, they're made up. Besides, Doom created his own set of physics and magic laws when he created his own universe using two Infinity Gauntlets back in FF.

We're not talking about realism here we're talking about axiomatically illogical things to the most primordial level

By the same logic I can throw at you the Ret-Con that the Tribunal isn't Omniversal, because in Starlin's Thanos OGN Trilogy he dies and Adam Warlock becomes the new LT, even though the Beyonders killed every fragment of the Tribunal in Secret Wars. Inconsistencies exist, due to the countless retcons. As it stands, from 2007 or so and afterwards, the Celestials are considered Multiversal.

Nope, the Tribunal is still omniversal, he still watches over multiverse doesn't he? Unless that has changed he is still omniversal.

Nope, the Celestials aren't omniversal, if there are versions per universe and are bound to a universe. Sorry.

Eh, it's still stupid.

Was it ever said that DC had only 52 earths, the tagline was that they had 52 new tittles.

There's a bit more to it in the Who-Verse. There was a Universe where things, including laws of physics and everything, were manipulated to act opposite of how they should (don't quote me on that cause I'm not sure though).

That's part of the multiverse.

Really, there's no way around it, it's all the same thing.

Even the Cosmic patches theory and other Multiverse alternatives consider patches of "universe" that may have ****ed up laws of physics and mathematics.

You're gonna keep throwing stuff and I'm gonna keep telling you that it's the same thing.

Eh, honestly? I don't know and I don't really care. It's not like I can hop into my time-machine, take a trip inside a black hole and visit my alien friends in Alt-U 4546868, and the inconsistency of comic book science contradicts the real world "facts". They're made up things, in made up worlds, loosely based on theories that are based on mathematical formulas and with the minimum amount of physical evidence. Infinity War could say that TOAA is a sentient jelly bean, and JL could say that Highfather is Jesus' half-brother, and it'd be just as valid for me.

You're just throwing tumblr-funny rants now

None of that really concerns this debate, doesn't change the fact that there's enough concrete info.

 

[Victοr]

That's a nice cop-put but its still dumb.

We're not talking about realism here we're talking about axiomatically illogical things to the most primordial level

One's highly unrealistic, while the other is just comic book "science". I don't see the difference between the two, but each to his own.

Nope, the Tribunal is still omniversal, he still watches over multiverse doesn't he? Unless that has changed he is still omniversal.

Secret Wars:

Starlin OGN:

Nope, the Celestials aren't omniversal, if there are versions per universe and are bound to a universe. Sorry.

So, the Fulcrum = TOAA = The King, created the Celestials. After the Knauf/Acuna Eternals volume, the Celestials are considered Multiversal beings, akin to the Watchers.

Was it ever said that DC had only 52 earths, the tagline was that they had 52 new tittles.

Dunno, it seems to me this is confirmation that there are only 52 Universes in the DC Multiverse:

That's part of the multiverse.

Really, there's no way around it, it's all the same thing.

Even the Cosmic patches theory and other Multiverse alternatives consider patches of "universe" that may have ****ed up laws of physics and mathematics.

You're gonna keep throwing stuff and I'm gonna keep telling you that it's the same thing.

I'm not saying it's not the same thing, all I'm saying is, just like there are Universes where tons of crazy **** are happening, maybe there's a fictional Multiverse where its creation had a difference proccess. Again, it's fictional, it can have whatever rules it wants, universal, multiversal or omniversal.

You're just throwing tumblr-funny rants now

None of that really concerns this debate, doesn't change the fact that there's enough concrete info.

Eh, it's the truth though. They're made-up rules concerning made-up worlds. I don't really care what or how they write them, as long as the stories are enjoyable. There are tons of inconsistencies in comics, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying a well written story. And I really don't give a damn about the whether the made-up rules follow the very few things we know about the way our universe works on a grand scale. It's just how it is, for me anyway.

 

[GasparZizou]

One's highly unrealistic, while the other is just comic book "science". I don't see the difference between the two, but each to his own.

Again, it's not about realism, it's about stupid, I have no problem with Doom becoming a god, or creating his own branch of physics or magic, but thinking he can alter a timeline without creating a new timeline is beyond stupid and it should bother anyone who has a basic grasp of multiverse/time travel/fantasy.

Yeah you don't see it, but it's there.

Secret Wars:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/2/28028/4415433-tribunal+dies003.jpg

Starlin OGN:

https://i.imgur.com/DOdmHoo.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...inale-%282016%29-%28digital-empire%29-098.jpg

So, he still watches over the multiverse huh? Wait, I just realized TLT being omniversal or not is completely inconsequential

You don't have to post all those images, you can tell me and I'll believe you, does he still watch over the multiverse or not?

So, the Fulcrum = TOAA = The King, created the Celestials. After the Knauf/Acuna Eternals volume, the Celestials are considered Multiversal beings, akin to the Watchers.

Yes, they are multiversal, as multiversal as any regular character with different versions in other universes.

The watchers aren't omniversal either, they're actually just aliens.

Dunno, it seems to me this is confirmation that there are only 52 Universes in the DC Multiverse:
https://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/Multiversity_Map_2400_53ee6b4c22d9a9.11031355.jpg

Dude, again, second time, when I start repeating myself because people don't read I start to get tired.

There are more than 52 earths, I don't think they have published stuff from all those 52 earths and they have published stuff that's OUTSIDE the 52 earths, as well as pocket universes. I don't think that map even accounts for all the stuff that went canon after Convergence and in Rebirth. Which is basically everything.

Again, drawing 52 earths is easier than drawing infinite earths, that map you posted there, is exactly what I was talking about.

There is one thing you can see clearly there, the new gods are above the multiverse, making them omniversal, unlike the celestials.

I'm not saying it's not the same thing, all I'm saying is, just like there are Universes where tons of crazy **** are happening, maybe there's a fictional Multiverse where its creation had a difference proccess. Again, it's fictional, it can have whatever rules it wants, universal, multiversal or omniversal.

Eh, it's the truth though. They're made-up rules concerning made-up worlds. I don't really care what or how they write them, as long as the stories are enjoyable. There are tons of inconsistencies in comics, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying a well written story. And I really don't give a damn about the whether the made-up rules follow the very few things we know about the way our universe works on a grand scale. It's just how it is, for me anyway.

You're just throwing all the words I've been using at random like they're interchangeable

Yeah that's all fine, it doesn't make that Doom stuff not stupid and doesn't change the fact that BvS brought the whole thing, nor that the multiverse is exactly what I've been talking about that you treated like a separate thing because you wanted to wait for more info nor that there's any reason to expect it to be different in the cinematic universes, etc etc.

 

[Victοr]

I clearly posted scans that show that the Celestials took the "universe" and turned into the "Multiverse". I also posted scans that show that they are second only to the Fulcrum/TOAA and the usual suspects like TLT, just like the Watchers. They are singular entities across the Multiverse, meaning that there are no duplicates. There's no 616 Arishem and 6565875657 Arishem. There's just... Arishem. Same as The New Gods. The Presensce is still above them.

As for the DC Multiverse, that's the official map. As far as I know, each Multiverse contains 52 Universes, but they're all collected in the Omniverse:

And besides all that, they're just fictional characters. I don't see the point in getting all worked up and treating them as reality. The writers can do whatever the **** they want with them, because they're... not real. And neither do we have all the answers concerning alternate Earths/Universes, Time-Travel or the various dimensions. We have formulas and mathematically "proven" theorems, but little to no physical evidence. So, personally speaking, I'd stop worrying whether comic books have "scientific" explainations.