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We actually don't know if Trunks was conceived after Vegeta achieved SSJ. That could be the case and would make sense, but who knows?
 
I wonder, anyone think Trunks and Goten being able to go Super Saiyan would have worked if they could only do it as Gotenks? Would have still had the special feeling, and probably show off strong Gotenks is; they'd probably be able to go Super Saiyan normally afterward.

Ehh, in some ways it is, in some it isn't in my opinion. Goku dying and never returning, Vegeta swearing off fighting and not having a proper way to end his rivalry with Goku, and Gohan not getting the true peace he wanted (since his father was dead) makes it a little tragic; the Buu saga ended things on a pretty peaceful note in my opinion since Gohan finally became the scholar he wanted and started his own family, Vegeta and Goku were friendly rivals, Vegeta was able to make amends with his family and Goku as well. In a sense, Kid Trunks was also able to live his life the way his alternate future counterpart would have wanted. The Buu Saga is still very flawed for DBZ but I like it for the ending, since it's on a happy note fitting for DBZ and there's no looose ends. The Cell Saga was great but the ending is sort of a downer

I think if they were only getting it so early because of fusion would have been good, and then, like you said, it would make sense if they could do it on their own from there on. It would be nice to show a struggle trying to sense what they did while in the Gotenks form.

I still think the Cell Game was the perfect conclusion to the story, but I just wanted closure on Vegeta, being a fan of him. By the end of the Cell Saga, I wouldn't call Vegeta "good," just "not bad." I really liked seeing Vegeta become a hero.
 
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almost here baby
 
I'd mostly buy normal goku as fast as possible because he;s guaranteed skyrocketing in a few months if not earlier. Some places still have him at lowest price, toyarena among others.

Thanks for the heads up, just put an Amazon order for Goku now. :rock
 
I've always been a fan of transformations in animes. Especially Bleach. I'll admit in DBZ the SSJ3 doesn't really do much for me. I'd rather see more of a change in the ascended saiyan level. SSJ4 tho I'm a big fan of. The added fur and hair growth works for me. I mean these
Guys have monkey tails and can transform into giant apes so I think the embodiment of the Ozzaru-like form while still retaining their general human size and shape was a nice touch.
 
I think Goku had every reason not to go SS3 against Vegeta:
-Vegeta was deliberately allowing himself to be controlled by the enemy JUST so that he could selfishly ruin Goku's one day on earth by 'settling their rivalry', why would Goku want to just oblige him and spend all his energy and time (remember going ss3 shortens his time on earth due to energy consumption) fighting him?
-If Goku used too much power, Majin Buu would be released (he got released anyway but it would happen that much sooner).
-Goku was not experienced with using SS3, he says so when he finishes transforming in front of Buu.

I think Vegeta 100% did not deserve a true fight with Goku, since he let himself be turned evil, slaughtered the fans watching the tournament, and ACTIVELY HELPED BUU GET REVIVED (seriously, what a ******!). Goku was fighting lower than he could of, for the sake of the Earth.
 
vegeta always was a ******, i dont know if he was softened in the english dub, but the guy:

1)Killed civilians just because.
2)killed nappa who had been his servant for years when he lost a fight
3)Betrayed frieza even before he knew what had happened.
4)tortured and murdered nameks.
5)allowed his son and his wife/partner whatever to almost die in a plane crash.
6)Let cell get powered up to get entertained.
7)Beat up a 4 year old kid several times.

and thats without counting all the insults and humilliations to everyone, or the fact that he was basically a hooligan who leeched of his wife's family, his constant childish tantrums or everything he did during the buu saga, so not only did he not deserve a fair fight, but he deserved to be left for dead in Namek.
 
On Vegeta at SSJ2 being stronger than SSJ3 Goku in BoG, I'm not sure if it's about form honestly. Mystic Gohan might be stronger than SSJ3 Goku after all and he never had to go Super Saiyan.

SSJ2 Vegeta might be outmatched by SSJ3 Goku but keep in mind that Vegeta was barely able to do anything to Kid Buu (both dead and alive) and yet, he kept getting back up, while SSJ 3 Goku was also struggling. So Vegeta might have a chance.

The Buu Saga might have been intended to be a lot sillier than previous sagas honestly, due to Kid Trunks and Goten. I mean, look at Majin Buu people, come on. It still had some serious moments - namely when there was nothing to do with Kid Trunks and Goten - but still.
Mystic Gohan stronger than SSJ3? I doubt it.

Regarding SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Goku, it might just be an intense rage outburst since it only lasted a moment. I believe Goku might be able to land a few hits in a similar fashion if he too was enraged by something like Vegeta.

Fat Buu, with his eyes slightly open, looks more evil and scarier than anything I've ever seen in the DB universe.

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If you want to discuss this more, please PM me, This discussion is inappropriate here in this thread.
Umm...yeah. Wise move!

Hold on, SSJ3 isn't only obtainable in death. Gotenks achieved it, though it might be likely it's only obtainable on a different plane since he went SSJ3 in the hyperbolic time chamber and Goku in Other World. It's possible instead it's hard to maintain in a regular plane (Earth and Kai Planet) and we do know that Goku had more limitations with it when he was alive again, as he had no problems with it when he was dead and fighting Fat Buu.

I think you're still right that SSJ3 only gives power though, but Gotenks did seem faster with it. Who knows? It likely did increase durability, since that goes with power. Technique wise we saw nothing. It did drain and nearly cripple Goku and Gotenks though, like an amplified Kaio Ken did to Goku against Vegeta and Freiza. SSJ 1 and 2 didn't seem to ruin any of the Saiyans ever.
I think the SSJ3 form, while initially attainable only in a different dimension/plane, can later be reached anytime, in any realm. It just takes practice and training to be able to properly sustain it which is why Goku seemed to have difficulties when he was alive again; he didn't get the time to hone it. This fact can be slightly alluded by the events in BoG where Goku is able to reach SSJ3 without much struggle (read screaming, charging etc.)

I also think SSJ3 brought in more speed along with power although the increase may not be as drastic as it was after he transformed to SSJ2. But yeah technique-wise, it was just 'all show, no go'.

I still don't know why they call it Super Saiyan GOD. What was so "Godly" about it? It's just a temporary power boost. It just gave him the ability to attain "Godly Ki" so he can keep up with Beerus, and that's it. There's no new mystical abilities you would think would come with the term GOD, such as immortality, prophetic vision, altering your size or anything like that. You would think that once Goku became a "God," he would be able to sense that Whis had a higher power level than Beerus immediately even if he was suppressing it, and that the dimension in which DBZ takes place was just one out of 12 total universes/dimensions with beings that make every single character in DBZ look like ants, but NOPE. None of that at all. Which is why I call it "SSj God AKA not-Kaioken." It's just Goku at Kaioken x1000 or whatever. Goku was already God-like without it, he could freakin' teleport anywhere in the universe in an instant, whereas it takes Whis/Beerus several hours to travel to King Kai's planet. But Toriyama's word is canon, so I can't argue with it :dunno
Maybe it was his first attempt at using the form and so he wasn't able to tap into the form's full abilities. Plus, his mind was somewhat corrupted, or should I say, distracted by
his desire to defeat Beerus and the guilt that he wasn't able to achieve the God form on his own. This is further emphasized when he doesn't lose much power after he reverts to a normal SSJ and also when he transforms to SSG sans any help(triggered by his will to save the ones dearer to him) and absorbs Beerus's attack
hinting that there's more to the God form than what we see in the movie.

Regarding teleportation, what is the farthest that Goku has travelled using the technique?
 
going to kai world since its another dimension altogether, then namek i believe.
 
It was never said that the transformation was only attainable whilst training in another dimension, only that Goku was able to push his limits far beyond that of the physical plain where there are "physical" constraints that greatly hinder ability to train without boundaries. In other-world, beings deemed worthy heroes are allowed to keep their mortal bodies as recognition of their greatness in life. However they do not "need" sustenance, nor do their bodies tire or fatigue. This allowed Goku to train harder and more "spiritually" than ever before, SS 3 is the result of this training.

In the case of Gotenks being able to reproduce Goku's transformation is simple, and it has already been posted in subsequent pages. Goku rewarded the boys by giving them a private audience with his newly perfected transformation. By this time in Z, all the Z warriors are all able to read warriors KI energy. It is my personal opinion that the boys, having witnessed Goku's technique, utilised this ability and were able to isolate the inner transformation occurring and reproduce its effect. However, they are only able to do so as Gotenks, as separately they do no possess the vast amounts of base energy to maintain the "transformed state".
 
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@Sup crisis wasnt talking about the figure.:lol

@Anti completely agree, that is, I don't dispute that. It just makes the fight completely uninteresting to me, because the only thing I found interesting was them having another true face off. Which it isn't.

Seriously, I could almost cry at the thought of how awesome a truetournamentsaga would've been. And goku reveals ssj3 in his fight with vegeta because vegeta starts demanding he goes 100% of everything he got. And then he *****slaps vegeta to hell, and vegeta concedes, finally, that it's just impossible.

That's what wouldve happened in dragonball, the original series about tournament fights. We never got one in dbz and it bums me out.
 
going to kai world since its another dimension altogether, then namek i believe.
Yes. But I believe he's travelling in the same universe and that too within a comparatively smaller area.

It was never said that the transformation was only attainable whilst training in another dimension, only that Goku was able to push his limits far beyond that of the physical plain where there are "physical" constraints that greatly hinder ability to train without boundaries. In other-world, beings deemed worthy heroes are allowed to keep their mortal bodies as recognition of their greatness in life. However they do not "need" sustenance, nor do their bodies tire or fatigue. This allowed Goku to train harder and more "spiritually" than ever before, SS 3 is the result of this training.

In the case of Gotenks being able to reproduce Goku's transformation is simple, and it has already been posted in subsequent pages. Goku rewarded the boys by giving them a private audience with his newly perfected transformation. By this time in Z, all the Z warriors are all able to read warriors KI energy. It is my personal opinion that the boys, having witnessed Goku's technique, utilised this ability and were able to isolate the inner transformation occurring and reproduce its effect. However, they are only able to do so as Gotenks, as separately they do no possess the vast amounts of base energy to maintain the "transformed state".
Agreed. I just based my opinion of Goku and Gotenks, for that matter, being able to go SSJ3 upon the events that transpired in the anime and that they co-incidentally(or deliberately) happened to take place in another dimension.

Also, IMO, the kids are able to go SSJ and further at such a young age simply due to evolution.
 
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Questions for all those who ordered Android 18 directly from Amazon.com and not a third party on amazon:

1.) Did it ship already? If so, when?

2.) where did it ship from? (Location listed in tracking)
 
There have been a few ignorant statements made here regarding the various forms of Buu and their respective power levels, Vegeta's and Goku's grudge match and Vegeta's last stand against Kid Buu. So, I'll do my best to demystify any misconceptions you might have.

Firstly, Buu's transformations listed in descending order of power level. Super Buu Gohan absorbed, Super Buu Gotenks absorbed, Super Buu Piccolo absorbed, Super Buu, Kid Buu - Evil Buu - Fat Buu. This is not up for debate, this is based on cold facts. Kid Buu is not Buu's "ultimate" or final evolution, it is his original or base form. The reason Fat Buu is his weakest incarnation is because of his simple and childish state of mind, acquired by absorbing the original Supreme Kai. Kid Buu, whilst not being Buu's strongest form, is still considered the most dangerous. He is the physical embodiment of pure evil, totally unpredictable and out of control. He wields the exact same abilities and physical prowess as Evil and Fat Buu, but is uninhibited by consciousness and lacks compassion - therefore poses the greatest threat, as he doesn't behave rationally and acts sporadically.

Which brings me to another misconception; why is it that SS2 Vegeta was able to dominate an out of control Kid Buu in a valiant last ditch effort, where SS 3 Goku, a physically superior transformation, failed before him? Simple, Vegeta is a battle-hardened veteran warrior and clinical tactician, whereas Goku is not. Goku's advantage has always been physical superiority, however, Vegeta is a much more accomplished and skilled combatant. Kid Buu is an empowered imbecile, not a real warrior. Buu has never met a real opponent in battle and was always under Bibadi's mind-control spell, he is more weapon of mass destruction than warrior. Vegeta merely outclassed Buu as a warrior, simple.

My final point; what was Goku's rational behind holding back in his fight with Vegeta? This is an easy one. Goku knew that revealing his trump card too early would be counter productive to their mission knowing that every ounce of energy he expended in their battle would go straight to Babidi, only further expediting Buu's awakening. Honestly, I believe that Goku's intentions were pure of heart and he acted as a true friend. More than anything Goku respects Vegeta as a warrior, knowing that revealing his superiority to Vegeta would only serve to a deal a catastrophic blow to Vegeta's pride. Goku wanted to level the playing field for Vegeta and offer him what he has always so desperately craved, a true contest of might.
 
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There have been a few ignorant statements made here regarding the various forms of Buu and their respective power levels, Vegeta's and Goku's grudge match and Vegeta's last stand against Kid Buu. So, I'll do my best to demystify any misconceptions you might have.
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Great break down Supernatural :)

May I add that Goku did fight at his best in the form he was in, I believe that Goku had every intention and desire to defeat Majin Vegeta, and hoped that SSj2 would be enough. SSj3 not being an option, he fought at his maximum power within SSj2 and was simply overpowered by Vegeta.

People tend to look at this like "Goku threw the fight" but that's not what happened, he did do everything within his SSj2 power to win. Goku tried to "have his cake and eat it too", but Vegeta was far to strong for that to work. Goku took a gamble and lost.
 
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