S.H.FiguArts Dragonball Z figures!!!

[Baneofdemon22]

I understand, but I think it would've better suited for an in cannon full fledged movie. It would have been too soon. I was already underwhelmed with Trunks' killing by Cell because of it seeming exactly like Frieza killing Piccolo, and then the Ginyu Force was underwhelming because it was almost exactly like the arrival of Vegeta and Nappa.

 

[Silrian]

I think that's kinda also because you didn't see it on tv, you only recently watched db/dbz didn't you...? Because the moments you describe had months, even years in between them when I saw them as a kid...

Specifically Im surprised about you mentioning trunks' murder, because vegeta's reaction is basically the first time ever that he shows a sign of caring for someone, I actually find that scene incredibly moving. And I still think that loss is what pushes him over his pride into helping gohan in the end - the moment cell kills trunksis the moment vegeta truly realises/accepts he's a father. Because for all the fails vegeta gets in dbz, he did make the difference in gohan getting the upper hand on cell, which was a massive turning point in that character imo. He saves his most hated opponent's son (okay second to frieza maybe) I think because the shock of his own son dying made him see gravity of the situation. He saves Gohan because he couldn't save Trunks. I bet if he hadn't connected to fatherhood via the loss of his son, he would've been too arrogant to see how only Gohan had the power to beat Cell, and might not have stepped in at all assuming he and trunks would flee, train and beat him later.

I ****ing love the whole perfect cell fight, it's fantastic imo. How everybody steps in to help gohan. It's so freakin climactic. It literally takes all the z fighters joined up to beat the negative embodiment of their own skill. It's brilliaint and awesome imo. Not to mention Gohan's own arc.

And yes I do approach dbz this psychologically, I honestly don't even care if Toriyama meant it that way or not, it's what I recognise in it and it's what makes me love it so much.

 

[wolvie9]

I think that's kinda also because you didn't see it on tv, you only recently watched db/dbz didn't you...? Because the moments you describe had months, even years in between them when I saw them as a kid...

Specifically Im surprised about you mentioning trunks' murder, because vegeta's reaction is basically the first time ever that he shows a sign of caring for someone, I actually find that scene incredibly moving. And I still think that loss is what pushes him over his pride into helping gohan in the end - the moment cell kills trunksis the moment vegeta truly realises/accepts he's a father. Because for all the fails vegeta gets in dbz, he did make the difference in gohan getting the upper hand on cell, which was a massive turning point in that character imo. He saves his most hated opponent's son (okay second to frieza maybe) I think because the shock of his own son dying made him see gravity of the situation. He saves Gohan because he couldn't save Trunks. I bet if he hadn't connected to fatherhood via the loss of his son, he would've been too arrogant to see how only Gohan had the power to beat Cell, and might not have stepped in at all assuming he and trunks would flee, train and beat him later.

I ****ing love the whole perfect cell fight, it's fantastic imo. How everybody steps in to help gohan. It's so freakin climactic. It literally takes all the z fighters joined up to beat the negative embodiment of their own skill. It's brilliaint and awesome imo. Not to mention Gohan's own arc.

And yes I do approach dbz this psychologically, I honestly don't even care if Toriyama meant it that way or not, it's what I recognise in it and it's what makes me love it so much.

Man ur just deep with everything! I agree with the cell saga tho and ur view, was awesome !

 

[Baneofdemon22]

It's not silly or anything to approach it psychologically, because I do to. That's why I love the Boo saga so much and why I found so much of it to be brilliant. It was very different, but I can understand why you it would be extremely frustrating watching episodes individually. Although, I love all the characterization a building throughout the entire arc, it was a change of pacing from what proceeded it, so what reason would someone have to believe it would go beyond it's initial seemingly stupidity. It probably wasn't well suited for serialized television. Actually the whole Japanese version wasn't. If it was a shorter series, it would be a different story, but it was so long, so you have to be respectful of your audience's time. While I hate the cheesiness of the script, mixed characterizations, and obtrusive music because I watched it all at once, it would be so frustrating to wait for pay off for so long. Watching them individually, you don't want to waste time, and you get a bunch of meat to an episode, by bringing great music and a bunch of dialogue. It's a different experience. It was like watching Breaking Bad seasons 1 and 2, where you got immediate payoff each episode, but in the third season it moved much slower and there was a lot of character building. Watching it weekly was frustrating because you waiting so long to see the plot move forward and then you are disappointed when it's just a bunch of talking, rather than action, because there's only 13 episodes a season and you're worried it's going to be rushed. However, watching it together, the later episodes have so much depth to them and are my favorite because of the slowness of it and all the characterizations. As much as I love the Saiyan and Frieza saga, when the Android saga started, it was extremely refreshing because it started to some more character depth. People critics Goku's fathering at the Cell games, but I think it's absolutely brilliant.

I agree with the Vegeta development and Trunks' death. My problem was it happened the same way that Frieza killed Piccolo. There was the big climatic moment where you thought the hero killed the villain with an awe inspiring attack and then SURPRISE he comes back and shoots your friend with the same attack.

 

[FSLAR]

I think Vegeta going berserk at Trunks's death was better than when Piccolo died, though Piccolo didn't really die, he was just on the verge of death like Trunks. Piccolo was just...unnecessary, unlike Krillin who pushed Goku to his Super Saiyan status. Piccolo didn't affect much. But like Sirlian said Vegeta realized and accepted he was a father.

I do think Gohan should have been built up more, Toriyama had a good idea with Goku and Gohan bonding before the final battles but he could have done more. A shame because he wanted Gohan to become the true successor to Goku. Cell Saga was great though, no true problems beyond that. I think the Frieza saga could kind of drag though, now that I think about it...I love the Buu saga, it has issues but it really is good. My chief problem is that while I like the idea of Goku and Vegeta teaming up, having Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and MAYBE Goten, because I don't care about Goten at all, would have been awesome. They've been among the main fighters, Trunks in the last season anyway, so it would have been cool. The reason for them dying was stupid too, why didn't Vegeta save his own son after his rage at failing to do this in the Cell games? He berated Goku for not doing the same. Not to mention I was really hoping to see Gohan and Goku team up against Super Buu but then Gohan got absorbed and didn't do much. I really wish Adult Gohan did more, he was MIA for a great deal of the Buu saga and he had some great moments fighting.

As for Goten, I don't like him at all. Future Trunks was a lone warrior who saw a lot of traumatic things and was humble, while Kid Trunks was like how Vegeta would be as a kid but far more child-ish. Goten was just a whiney and stupid brat. I think he was only put in for an equal to Trunks or just for Gotenks. Also it was a shame that Vegeta became outclassed by Goku so hard toward the end, and that we never got a true, finished battle between Goku and Vegeta. Buu is a good villian, but his 'can always regenerate from everything' is broken, and got old so quick. I think Toriyama had some pressure though since he was forced to abandon his idea of Gohan being Goku's successor. Beyond that I think all the sagas are great, but have their own separate problems. Also...

Does anyone find it weird that Goku was surprisingly ok about Gohan's assumed death?

 

[Baneofdemon22]

No, because he knew he could wish him back with the dragonballs. It's just like when Tien was going to get his head crushed by King Piccolo. Goku has a mission and does it. He doesn't let others know his plan either. He really cares, but he's carefree! You get the first big insight of this when he fights Piccolo in the 23rd tournament. It makes him look like a jerk, but it's just how he is. Now if there wasn't a chance to bring him back, then he'd be enraged.

 

[Silrian]

My problem was it happened the same way that Frieza killed Piccolo. There was the big climatic moment where you thought the hero killed the villain with an awe inspiring attack and then SURPRISE he comes back and shoots your friend with the same attack.

That I do see your point with, it is a trope no doubt about that. But as FSLAR points out:

I think Vegeta going berserk at Trunks's death was better than when Piccolo died, though Piccolo didn't really die, he was just on the verge of death like Trunks. Piccolo was just...unnecessary, unlike Krillin who pushed Goku to his Super Saiyan status. Piccolo didn't affect much. But like Sirlian said Vegeta realized and accepted he was a father.

I do think Gohan should have been built up more, Toriyama had a good idea with Goku and Gohan bonding before the final battles but he could have done more. A shame because he wanted Gohan to become the true successor to Goku. Cell Saga was great though, no true problems beyond that. I think the Frieza saga could kind of drag though, now that I think about it...I love the Buu saga, it has issues but it really is good. My chief problem is that while I like the idea of Goku and Vegeta teaming up, having Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and MAYBE Goten, because I don't care about Goten at all, would have been awesome. They've been among the main fighters, Trunks in the last season anyway, so it would have been cool. The reason for them dying was stupid too, why didn't Vegeta save his own son after his rage at failing to do this in the Cell games? He berated Goku for not doing the same. Not to mention I was really hoping to see Gohan and Goku team up against Super Buu but then Gohan got absorbed and didn't do much. I really wish Adult Gohan did more, he was MIA for a great deal of the Buu saga and he had some great moments fighting.

As for Goten, I don't like him at all. Future Trunks was a lone warrior who saw a lot of traumatic things and was humble, while Kid Trunks was like how Vegeta would be as a kid but far more child-ish. Goten was just a whiney and stupid brat. I think he was only put in for an equal to Trunks or just for Gotenks. Also it was a shame that Vegeta became outclassed by Goku so hard toward the end, and that we never got a true, finished battle between Goku and Vegeta. Buu is a good villian, but his 'can always regenerate from everything' is broken, and got old so quick. I think Toriyama had some pressure though since he was forced to abandon his idea of Gohan being Goku's successor. Beyond that I think all the sagas are great, but have their own separate problems. Also...

Does anyone find it weird that Goku was surprisingly ok about Gohan's assumed death?

Yeah I pretty much agree with everything you said there, and that's why I generally call the Buu saga sloppy writing, it feels so uninspired to me overall. But I just also remain of the opinion Buu is a dead end as a character. That thing lacks a character arc exactly the same way Broli does. Granted Cell by himself was fairly one dimensional too, but the thing is that his origin gave him meaning, he essentially embodied the villainy of his creators who were known, nuanced antagonists (RR army), Frieza was the hell-bent-on-immortality-conquerer (check), Cell was the sentient weapon (check) and Buu is... Buu is what? Pure evil...? He is what he eats, evilified? Both Buu himself and his creator are imo completely devoid of any substance. At best Babidi is essentially a Frieza 2.0 who cant fight for himself. Now if they had expanded upon Buu as an arch nemesis to the Kais, and featured the Kais more as central story characters, that would've been way more interesting. That in essence would've become Gods versus Devils in DBZ aesthetics with the z fighters having to make up the balance. Then Supreme Kai could've actually have had a cool role instead of being one of the most disappointing characters on the whole show. They build him up like THE reveered super being of the galaxy and then boom his relevance is relegated to an outmatched messenger and advisor.

The story of Dabura's fight against the Kais, would've liked that way more. Buu could've been Dabura's creation as a one man army to conquer the kai's world('s).

 

[Baneofdemon22]

You know I was going to just quote that first part of Boo being a dead end character and uninspired writing, but I agree with everything you just said. I just love that first part so much. It reminded me of Marvel in the 70's. You had such awesome characterizations, but lousy one dimensional villians with a neat gimmick. The superhero aspect felt more like a tool to get back to the X-men so you could go back to the soap opera elements and them playing baseball.

I really like Daburra still. But, yeah, a better villain would have helped so much. I still think what was done with the Fat Buu, having his character arc, and the interesting juxtaposition of him terrorizing people and turning them to milk to give to a blind kid, he helped regain his sight. After feeling some sympathy for Boo's childlike innocence, he'd then blow up a city to celebrate being called cool. I found his relationship with Mr. Satan very entertaining and liked how it influenced his character. What I should have said was, I think he was a great character, but Boo as THE villian was bad.

 

[Silrian]

Yeah it's like the point where dbz starts to suck imo is the point where dabura is a henchman, to pin it down. If you scrap Babibdi/bibidi and just make that Dabura, the closest thing to the devil in the DBZverse, make him the prime enemy and mastermind of evil and Buu his diabolical twisted one man army, I suddenly would like it much more. Because if there's an enemy of substance behind Buu, than Buu is a pretty cool henchman villain. Ultimate Gohan could've truly defeated him repairing his arc as well. And then you'd still have the last fight with Dabura where goku destroys HIM with a spirit bomb fueled by the galaxy. Buu could still reincarnate as Uub, a lot could stay the same, almost everything good about the Buu period including most of Buu himself, yet with an added importance to Gohan, Supreme Kai and Dabura. Basically Babidi's existence is completely empty and obsolete from a writing pov imo.

You'd also have a cool consistent theme of alien enemies (Frieza + henchman), artifical enemies (Cell + Androids) and infernal ones (Dabura+Buu) giving the series a nice thematic structure and taking the z fighters to all archetypical settings. Man I would've loved something like that.

 

[Baneofdemon22]

Maybe once Vegeta self destructed on Fat Boo it would have unleashed Hell. Then it would have been a call back to the King Piccolo arc, but WAY darker and brutal. Maybe then unleash the Legenday Saiyan from Hell. You could have some perverse demons in there terrorizing the citizens. Everyone would need to work together and fusions would have been necessary.

 

[Baneofdemon22]

Yeah Daburra should have been using Babidi and killed him once Boo was unleashed. He manipulated Vegeta into Majin and planned for him to break open fat Buu as a portal to hell. He was a devil. It could have kept all my favorite stuff that way.

 

[Baneofdemon22]

Man, having the humans help to make a Spirit Bomb to take down Hell! You could have civilians help the Z fighters fight as well. It would be so interesting and shoe that whole thing of deep down "Men are good". Bunch of morality involved and tons of twists and turns.

 

[crisis]

So my Saiyan Capsule finally arrived, and I couldn't resist posing it with Vegeta. What do you guys think?

 

[Silrian]

^ Exactly. And it feels more akin to dragonball too, that series is way more about wisdom and good vs evil ways of life than I remembered.

Everything from Majin Buu onward is just... bubblegum... you chew... and you chew... and you chew... until you need more bubblegum for some taste... and you chew... and chew... and eventually you're just like ugh, this isn't real candy/food. Then again, some people can chew gum forever haha.

Looks pretty close to me.

EDIT: Nice Crisis, looks really good!! Congrats.

 

[wolvie9]

So my Saiyan Capsule finally arrived, and I couldn't resist posing it with Vegeta. What do you guys think?

View attachment 88771
View attachment 88772

Congrats bro, I just bought one also bro and its on the way cant wait!! How much did u pay?

 

[Baneofdemon22]

^ Exactly. And it feels more akin to dragonball too, that series is way more about wisdom and good vs evil ways of life than I remembered.

Everything from Majin Buu onward is just... bubblegum... you chew... and you chew... and you chew... until you need more bubblegum for some taste... and you chew... and chew... and eventually you're just like ugh, this isn't real candy/food. Then again, some people can chew gum forever haha.

Phenomenal analogy!

Great pic Crisis!

 

[imaI2EAPEi2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNSNkNxQuwE


this scene is perfect. perfect music, perfect script. This is what made me respect vegeta more then i've ever had, and it was truly un expected.

Trunks, bulma I do this for you....yes even for you ****rot!

 

[Silrian]

Totally with you Reaper. I personally also effin love it's piccolo who's with him. Those two have always had some sort of unspoken bond, both anti-heroes, both their planet destroyed at the hands of Frieza, both warriors to the core, they just had to look at each other to understand life on a fundamental warrior's level. Ugh, that music still gives me chills down my spine as it has ever done so from Namek onward. That's why I want SHF Majin Vegeta, to commemorate the few shining moments Vegeta got out of that period.

I'm just always so annoyed at him having to do it to kill that moron, it's such a disgrace that he freakin survived. At least Vegeta played a crucial role in killing Kid Buu in the end.

 

[Baneofdemon22]

I've said multiple times here that Majin Vegeta is my favorite part of the series and Final Atonement is the peak of the series for me. I love it in Japanese!

 

[Silrian]

I love that this came before it though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFs-DgzVRoM


Also, what the hell? I just read the anime has Dabura joining the side of good and searching for Gohan in the afterlife. Dafrig man? I can't remember that at all.

That's so weird to me. Having the 'King of Demons' as the main antagonist would've been so much more fitting, yet Toriyama invented some wizard toad instead that nobody really knows much about anyway, I don't get that. The perfect antagonist was right there...