Should the Knights of Ren have been Snoke's guards?

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

KOR are so far down on the list of problems that they barely even register. I do find it funny that a lot of people thought Hot Toys would make figures of them all.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yeah wondering is fine. That's part of the fun of SW and harkens back to 1977 when Vader was called "Dark Lord of the Sith" and then no Sith that he was actually a lord of ever appeared.

But crying foul over the the ST not spelling everything out is just a silly double standard.

You're absolutely right, and I agree. Just looking at their total screen time from the first two films, then TROS actually did *far more* with the KOR than anyone had any right to expect. But I want to point out that there's a distinction between "crying foul" and merely believing/suggesting that more could've/should've been done with certain characters or situations.

And since Boba Fett is being used for comparison here lately, many fans malign or regret his treatment in ROTJ. That's based on subjective perception of what the character could've/should've been portrayed as. It's not really based on screen time and utilization in prior films as much as it's based on perceived significance and/or potential. Same thing here.

 

[Khev]

You're absolutely right, and I agree. Just looking at their total screen time from the first two films, then TROS actually did *far more* with the KOR than anyone had any right to expect. But I want to point out that there's a distinction between "crying foul" and merely believing/suggesting that more could've/should've been done with certain characters or situations.

True but if you're going to piggy back on every single complaint whether it's valid or not then it's hard not to lump you in with the chronic complainers. So again, wanting to see more of them? I get it. Being bummed that we didn't see more of them? I get that too. But holding it *against* the film as if it did something wrong or unusual when we actually saw them do stuff just as cool/cooler than most OT henchmen? That's where it gets silly IMO. And if you don't think that applies to you then great. I'm just making the statement in a "if the shoe fits" kinda way.

And since Boba Fett is being used for comparison here lately, many fans malign or regret his treatment in ROTJ. That's based on subjective perception of what the character could've/should've been portrayed as. It's not really based on screen time and utilization in prior films as much as it's based on perceived significance and/or potential. Same thing here.

The problem with ROTJ Fett is that he was tactically stupid (went out of his way to fly within lightsaber range of Luke), incompetent (tried to shoot Luke in the back and missed by a mile), then screamed like a girl and died the same death as a bunch of nameless losers. None of those apply to the KOR.

They had a tactical advantage (six to one against an unarmed foe), competent (beat him up pretty good), and badass (stood their ground to the last man after the saber materialized) so I'd put the KOR far above ROTJ Fett.

Plus as punisher1974 said they did have a really cool parallel with the ESB bounty hunters since their presence on the Empire/FO command ship drew largely the same reaction ("bounty hunters, we don't need their scum/knights of ren, ghouls!")

 

[YoNoSe]

Rian Johnson's idea of developing the KoR would have been adding one female Knight to correct the others.

 

[ajp4mgs]

True but if you're going to piggy back on every single complaint whether it's valid or not then it's hard not to lump you in with the chronic complainers. So again, wanting to see more of them? I get it. Being bummed that we didn't see more of them? I get that too. But holding it *against* the film as if it did something wrong or unusual when we actually saw them do stuff just as cool/cooler than most OT henchmen? That's where it gets silly IMO. And if you don't think that applies to you then great. I'm just making the statement in a "if the shoe fits" kinda way.)

Chronic complainer? For having a different point of view on these things? For you, a majority of elements in TROS worked well because you enjoyed the overall movie. So things like the KOR representing nothing more than effectively-used background henchmen works for you. For me, they represent a lost opportunity. And this difference is the direct result of how differently we perceive the movie in general. Of course I'm going to see plenty of issues (not just the KOR) differently; that's how this works.

For me, some of the silliness of having an undead Palpatine with 10,000 death star destroyers that couldn't navigate up, or even raise their shields, was lame. Snoke being nothing but a clone plucked out of a pickle jar was disappointing. The First Order being replaced by a new Final Order was unnecessary. And undoing Vader's end to Palpatine in ROTJ was grossly unsatisfying. So, since I feel these unsatisfying elements could've been avoided, I'm going to perceive things like the KOR differently than you. Not sure why that's such a surprise, or unusual at all.

The KOR represent a way that JJ could've injected Force-user villains into the story, thereby avoiding some of the need for undoing Palpatine's death, that had a more direct connection to the first two ST films. He went in a totally different direction (that plenty of people were very happy with, and I understand that), but am I just supposed to blindly approve of his choices?

I would've preferred the tie-in to Luke; the tie-in to Snoke; a foil for Kylo that would've presented a better challenge and obstacle, and so forth. If that seems crazy to you, then whatever. I just don't get why you classify **** like this as chronic complaining. If there's a a general dissatisfaction with the direction and quality of the whole movie, of course multiple aspects of it are going to be seen as areas that could've been better. Pretty straightforward.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

after the saber materialized)

I don't know how you can watch this happen and not feel like it's the absolute dumbest **** ever.

 

[Khev]

Chronic complainer? For having a different point of view on these things?

No, not for "having a different point of view" for heaven's sake but for being a *chronic complainer,* lol. I have a different point of view from almost everyone here, and that includes people who did and did not like TROS and/or the ST, it's no big deal so quit trying to act like I'm painting everybody with the same brush, you know better than that.

You were angry with people who bashed TLJ and called them trolls for two straight years so I'm not gonna let you turn around and then suddenly say that hating on a movie that *you* think is bad suddenly falls under the umbrella of "a different point of view," not when you're holding TROS to the same double standards that people did for TLJ. I get why people didn't like the movie whether it be due to the direction they took the story or personal anti-KK sentiments. I get where everyone is coming from. I know why people don't like TFA, why they don't like TLJ, and why they don't like TROS. And not liking them doesn't make anyone wrong or bad but if I see low hanging fruit like people criticizing these movies for doing *the same things as the OT or even less offensive things than the OT* (just like they did with TLJ) then geez I would think you of *all* people would understand why that would be a pretty silly take to have.

And really the only reason I challenge such claims is to see if someone can be rational enough to go, "okay, technically this does line up with the OT" (which I thought you were doing re: the KOR in a prior post) or if they're just gonna double down on the unsubstantiated hate. Or...and this is a big "or" (lol) maybe they'll counter with something that shows how something that I thought lined up with the OT is actually way off and then I learn something.

I don't know how you can watch this happen and not feel like it's the absolute dumbest **** ever.

And I don't know how you can watch this happen and feel like it is. So what.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

And I don't know how you can watch this happen and feel like it is. So what.

You are cool with mentally teleporting tangible objects precisely and instantaneously across the galaxy? Why stop at lightsabers and trinkets, how about an evacuation ship like the Falcon?

 

[ajp4mgs]

No, not for "having a different point of view" for heaven's sake but for being a *chronic complainer,* lol. I have a different point of view from almost everyone here, and that includes people who did and did not like TROS and/or the ST, it's no big deal so quit trying to act like I'm painting everybody with the same brush, you know better than that.

You were angry with people who bashed TLJ and called them trolls for two straight years so I'm not gonna let you turn around and then suddenly say that hating on a movie that *you* think is bad suddenly falls under the umbrella of "a different point of view," not when you're holding TROS to the same double standards that people did for TLJ. I get why people didn't like the movie whether it be due to the direction they took the story or personal anti-KK sentiments. I get where everyone is coming from. I know why people don't like TFA, why they don't like TLJ, and why they don't like TROS. And not liking them doesn't make anyone wrong or bad but if I see low hanging fruit like people criticizing these movies for doing *the same things as the OT or even less offensive things than the OT* (just like they did with TLJ) then geez I would think you of *all* people would understand why that would be a pretty silly take to have.

And really the only reason I challenge such claims is to see if someone can be rational enough to go, "okay, technically this does line up with the OT" (which I thought you were doing re: the KOR in a prior post) or if they're just gonna double down on the unsubstantiated hate. Or...and this is a big "or" (lol) maybe they'll counter with something that shows how something that I thought lined up with the OT is actually way off and then I learn something.

Khev, you and I were on opposite sides of TLJ for much of last year. Did you get the sense that I was dismissing your point of view as being a troll? Did you get the sense that I was dismissing a-dev, or TaliBane, or Bravomite, or abake, or Wor-Gar, or several others as "haters" or trolls? I should hope not, because I wasn't dismissive of any of you in that way.

Some people (like those I mentioned) earn respect by proving that they have valid contrasting views. Others not so much, and can be seen as trolls and blind haters. If you think my criticisms have put me in that latter camp, I don't know what else to say. Just stop replying to my posts, I guess. Then you'll see my posting go down significantly since you're one of the ones I respect enough to keep having most of the back-and-forth with.

Some of my problems with TROS can't be simplified to: "it's contrary to how it was in the OT." But that doesn't delegitimize the objections. There are problems I have with the PT that I'd say the same thing about. Sometimes, film quality and story quality just don't measure up to what I'd prefer and it has nothing to do with being consistent with OT context.

 

[Khev]

Khev, you and I were on opposite sides of TLJ for much of last year. Did you get the sense that I was dismissing your point of view as being a troll? Did you get the sense that I was dismissing a-dev, or TaliBane, or Bravomite, or abake, or Wor-Gar, or several others as "haters" or trolls? I should hope not, because I wasn't dismissive of any of you in that way.

Yep, especially a-dev and Bravomite. I remember you saying that those two in particular were "just the worst." I'm kidding obviously, I was talking about all the others complaining about Luke not being perfect (when he literally never was) or whining about stupid stuff like bombs falling in space (when they have done that ever since ESB.) I don't recall any of those folks you just mentioned doing things like that. From what I remember from them it was more "nope, don't like the super slow space chase, Canto Bight, putting agenda over story, stupid Rose and Holdo and having the main OT heroes be sad or fallen heroes." And to any of those criticisms what are you gonna say, they're "wrong?" Nope, because all those things happened and were quite a contrast to what we'd seen in the Saga before.

Some people (like those I mentioned) earn respect by proving that they have valid contrasting views. Others not so much, and can be seen as trolls and blind haters.

Personally I wouldn't put those two groups together. I kind of think you've fallen into the latter category () *but* I don't consider it to be the big insult that I think you're taking it as. I mean don't we all kind of poke fun at ourselves all the time for being irrational, even sad, with how far we obsess over these silly movies? Should I loathe young Daniel Logan Boba Fett? Probably not. But I do, oh I do, lol.

If you think my criticisms have put me in that latter camp, I don't know what else to say. Just stop replying to my posts, I guess.

Then you'll see my posting go down significantly since you're one of the ones I respect enough to keep having most of the back-and-forth with.

Come on, don't threaten to throw in the towel like that. And here you go again with the "just don't even bother doing such and such then." Remember last year when TLJ was falling out of favor with me and you told me to just not bother going to TROS? Did I listen to you then? I never just blindly stick to my guns out of some desperate need to be right and giving TROS the benefit of the doubt paid huge dividends and I allow myself to possibly be misreading your takes as well. Remember I don't actually dislike anyone here. And that includes the biggest ST naysayers like you, Ducky, Turdfurguson or anyone else.

Some of my problems with TROS can't be simplified to: "it's contrary to how it was in the OT." But that doesn't delegitimize the objections. There are problems I have with the PT that I'd say the same thing about. Sometimes, film quality and story quality just don't measure up to what I'd prefer and it has nothing to do with being consistent with OT context.

Yep I get that.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

I'm genuinely curious if you think it would be OK for Rey and Kylo to teleport the Falcon back and forth?

 

[Khev]

I'm genuinely curious if you think it would be OK for Rey and Kylo to teleport the Falcon back and forth?

Well I guess off the top of my head it's easy for me to say no I wouldn't want that just because I have a hard time picturing how that could be cool or dramatically appropriate in a story. Like I've already said I think the ST crossed a number of lines that I can accept *once* in the name of ending the Saga with a bang (Holdo maneuver, hyperspace tracking, Palps returning, him electrocuting an entire fleet, teleporting objects, raising people from the dead, etc.) but now that those particular cats are out of the bag I think the only option would be to keep TROS as the true end to the Saga.

Otherwise things just get too weird from here on out, even for me, lol.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

Well I guess off the top of my head it's easy for me to say no I wouldn't want that just because I have a hard time picturing how that could be cool or dramatically appropriate in a story. Like I've already said I think the ST crossed a number of lines that I can accept *once* (Holdo maneuver, hyperspace tracking, Palps returning, him electrocuting an entire fleet, teleporting objects, raising people from the dead, etc.) but now that those particular cats are out of the bag I think the only option would be to keep TROS as the true end to the Saga.

Otherwise things just get too weird from here on out, even for me, lol.

Fair enough. The point I'm trying to make is once you start doing stuff such as teleporting tangible stuff and Holdo hyperspace attacks you get to a point where anything goes and nothing in the past makes sense anymore.

 

[Khev]

Fair enough. The point I'm trying to make is once you start doing stuff such as teleporting tangible stuff and Holdo hyperspace attacks you get to a point where anything goes and nothing in the past makes sense anymore.

Yeah and I'll give you the Holdo maneuver. Of all the things I listed above that's the one thing that can't be written off as "lost" Jedi/Sith teachings or newly developed tech and does genuinely beg the question of why hasn't it been done before. I forgive it because I liked how it played out in TLJ but can't fault anyone for taking issue with it.

 

[YoNoSe]

I'm okay with the instances of Rey& Kylo passing notes because it's specifically mentioned that they have a unique connection & it seems impulsive & surprising even to them. And while it's not explained outright there is a progression of them building on each others' skills which I think is kind of cool in the absence of formal teachers. So I would assume these things could not be replicated by your bog standard, arena running team jedi.

The Holdo maneuver is harder to swallow for me because it's a surprise but it's hardly noted. Even the line in RoS is a hand wave at best. It's more of a meta problem in a way. Like how horror movies always have to disable cel phones now.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

I'm okay with the instances of Rey& Kylo passing notes because it's specifically mentioned that they have a unique connection & it seems impulsive & surprising even to them.

It's not just notes though it's tangible objects.

In ESB Luke struggles using the force to move objects. Yoda shows him that "size matters not". On that note now that you can teleport objects using the force, that tells me the force can teleport ships and whatever else as well. What if someone is on a ship that is teleported, do they go with it? Do you even need to fly to get from place to place anymore? It's a can of worms that never ends.

 

[YoNoSe]

Yeah, it could be a can of worms. But only 2 people could do it and one is dead so that ties it up for me.

As opposed to the Holdo thing which we're told was one in a million but I find that hard to believe, and is kind of a discredit to Luke's actual one in a million shot in ANH.

 

[JAWS]

I cant remember... What is the issue with the Holdo hyperspace move... I know the argument is.. "why not do it all the time? "

But even if Holdo never did it... Isn't it something that could have always been considered?

Now that she did it we are all up in arms about it but I could see someone sitting at home hearing Han say "we would fly right through a Star" and say "Why don't they do that with the Death Star"

IDK.. It never really bothered me..



I was watching RLM review of TLJ... Kinda made me hate it all over again

 

[YoNoSe]

That's why I think it's more of a meta problem. It violates an unspoken narrative rule that kinda breaks the universe. It doesn't keep me up at night but I totally get why it's a massive dealbreaker for more detail oriented fans.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

Yeah, it could be a can of worms. But only 2 people could do it and one is dead so that ties it up for me.

Yes the almighty Rey. She is faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. With little to no training she channels the power of the dead, lighting shoots out of her arse, lightsabers speak to her, she teleports objects, heals the wounded, is a better treasure hunter than the Goonies, I could go on and on about her exploits. Because there is nothing that she can't do.

And if you aren't careful she will even steal your identity.