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Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

I personally don't quite understand the desire for gold. Are we saying that if the world hit the ____s that people will be bartering gold in exchange for things? Gold itself is a fiat in a way. Its practical uses seem trivial to me.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

I guess you could call it over-consumption but the root cause of the start of the 2008 crash and the sovereign debt issues of today is simple

Spending beyond means.

2008 crash: US (and UK and a lot of other western countries) consumers 'bought' houses they could never afford due to irresponsible lending practices, based on a presumption that house prices can only go up. Wrong.

Similarly investment banks sold securities based on these mortgages to investors, after having fooled the useless rating agencies into believing their ratings were AAA, whereas in reality these were junk assets.

Ongoing 2011 crash: US (and again, UK, Spain, Ireland, Italy, Portugual, Greek, etc.) governments budgets are and have been out of control. Printing too much debt to fuel a spending spree be it on wars, bloated benefits, bank bailouts, what have you.

The problem thus like I said is simple - don't spend money you do not have. :slap

And that clearly points to the one and only solution for the sovereign issues of today:
Massive cuts in spending (read: stop the wars and cut the benefits) + significant increases in revenues (read: higher taxes)

I'd further add that Americans have for some time learned they can vote themselves money, via entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare, and numerous assistance programs like food stamps, unemployment, disability, and many more. I think we need to help our neighbors in time of need, when it is acceptable financially for us to do so. Problem is, we can't have low taxes and socialistic programs out the yazoo. But, you take away or trim these programs, and you'll upset your constituents. And, with 1 in 5 people getting some form of government assistance, that's a very touchy subject for politicians.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

I think all parties are to blame - the government for encouraging mad spending and being guilty of it themselves.

The banks for misleading investors to buy junk instruments dressed up as safe certainties

The investors for not thinking for themselves and taking the banks for their word - the most elementary analysis of fundamentals would have revealed the stench

And the consumers for falling into the spending trap - the prudent ones (of which they are not many) stuck to the basics and continued to save, but most were swept away by the credit frenzy.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

Except that none of it would have been possible without the fiat money based central banking system. Blame the people who permitted it to exist, I guess, but it's not like they have a choice, and if they did, I can guarantee they would not be using it.

I personally don't quite understand the desire for gold. Are we saying that if the world hit the ____s that people will be bartering gold in exchange for things? Gold itself is a fiat in a way. Its practical uses seem trivial to me.

It's only practical use is as an objective medium of exchange. It is durable, portable, divisible, homogenous, and rare, which is why whenever men have been free to choose their own neutral commodity, they've chosen gold. It's not fiat. It's tangible, and that makes all the difference in the world.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

It's only practical use is as an objective medium of exchange. It is durable, portable, divisible, homogenous, and rare, which is why whenever men have been free to choose their own neutral commodity, they've chosen gold. It's not fiat. It's tangible, and that makes all the difference in the world.

Yep, money is just a piece of paper at the end of the day. As you stated gold is tangible.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

But this is my question, tangible for whom? The true worth of anything is it's end product.

You can exchange cabbages around and the cabbage is only truly worth something to the one who eats it.

My question is what is the end use of gold? To make jewely, as a building material, as a conductor? You can't eat it. You can't plant it.

So while it is "tangible" in the sense you can hold it, its still fiat for everyone except the end user.


I'm probably not using the term fiat correctly, what I mean to imply is that gold in itself is just used as a medium to represent something that is more than its true value, just like paper.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

You miss the point - it's tangible and has perceived as well as real value due to its rarity, therefore people will be willing to trade it for other goods and services and/or cash because they know they can do the same with others once they have the gold.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

Cabbage rots. Gold does not. Cabbages are different sizes, weights, densities. Gold is not. Cabbages get used up. Gold does not.

Paper, like cabbage, has no worth as a medium of exchange. You don't write on gold. You don't turn gold into sauerkraut. You use gold for money. It's as simple as that.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

I personally don't quite understand the desire for gold. Are we saying that if the world hit the ____s that people will be bartering gold in exchange for things? Gold itself is a fiat in a way. Its practical uses seem trivial to me.

Gold has been historically (and we're talking clear back to the beginnings of civilization) been a cornerstone of value. Currencies go up and down and have no tangible value and are based on the confidence and credibility of the institution printing it, whereas gold is tangible and its value is well established making it safe (but not immune to a bubble). The dollar can go the way of the dodo, and gold will still be there, and still have value.

Gold is a dirty word to any government that uses fiat currency. US money used to be backed by physical supplies of gold and silver. The government could not print any more dollars than they had gold and silver to back it up, and I believe there was a time you could turn in dollars for physical gold. It was the gold standard. However, when your currency is tied to a commodity like gold, you cannot support the currency in dire times like our great depression through currency regulation. The Fed was established to ensure our currency's value is maintained, and they regulate its value by adding money to tweak inflation, and removing money from circulation to deflate the currency when inflation is beyond their acceptable parameters. You can't do that with a gold standard.

Fiat currency is a better system, when your regulators are being responsible. My problem lately with this, is that they've been printing money (quantitative easing, i.e. QE, QE2), to add liquidity to the banking system. This supports the equity markets and helps stabilize the system. It also comes at the cost of inflation once the banks start getting this money into the hands of you and I. So, those who saved, will find their savings goes less far than it did a few years ago, effectively "taxing" their savings to bail out the system. I guess we'll see how manageable that is as we go from here. If not handled properly, adding too much currency to circulation can result in hyper-inflation. Look up the Weimar republic for a nice example of what that does to an economy. I'd like to point out, the dire economic times during the Weimar Republic, opened the door for the establishment of the Nazi regime. No, we're not in this situation, and probably won't be. But, it shows you how poorly managed fiat currency can wreck an entire nation.

The Federal Reserve is an unelected body, under congressional oversight, that has total power over the regulation of the value of the dollar. For the government to pay its bills, they can sell bonds to the Federal Reserve, who gives them the cash to operate. Do not underestimate the power the Federal Reserve has over our lives. IMO, it is more powerful than any branch of our government, and you don't vote for them.

They also sell bonds (debt) to countries like China. That makes foreign entities have a vested interest in the value of our currency, and printing more money makes them (investors) mad. If confidence in US bonds decreases, it can cause financial turmoil (see my earlier discussion about bank bonds and how confidence can spiral badly). Thus, the S&P downgrade of our credit rating, reduces confidence in our currency. This affects anyone holding our debt, which is basically the entire world. We are the benchmark currency of the world. Loss of that honor, would be a commentary on our currency and credit no longer being safe.

You can see how this whole thing is tied together, and we are in the middle of it, pretty culpable via overconsumption (debt). There's plenty of blame to spread around.
 
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Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

You miss the point - it's tangible and has perceived as well as real value due to its rarity, therefore people will be willing to trade it for other goods and services and/or cash because they know they can do the same with others once they have the gold.

But that's exactly my point. Gold's "value" goes up and down based on the theory that it can be exchanged between people. Just like cash.

The only difference is that paper currency's end result is to wipe one's ass with it and gold can be melted down for jewelry.

In the very end, isn't gold's true value only applicable to the end user. In the meantime its only used as a "representation" of value.

I'm not trying to defend currency, btw, I'm just trying to get to the nitty gritty of gold. I agree that since the beginning of time it was used as currency, but my point is that even then it was simply a representation of value, since it was transportable and rare.

But rare transportable objects are only as valuable as what it will accomplish for an individual, and for the most part, its value is all psychological.

If there were a handful of people on the planet a gold brick ain't very useful.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

Nope. The value is not 'psychological', i.e. subjective, i.e., all in one's head. It is a physical, quantitative representation of goods produced. It is objective.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

To put it another way, why does Z want gold? Because Y is willing to take it. Y wants it because X is willing to take it. X wants it because W is willing to take it....and so one.

What happens once "A" gets it, peddles it back to "Z"? If "Z" wanted it, why didn't he keep it?

If gold just swings around to person to person, its a currency. A tangible currency? Sure, but its just a currency and holds little practical use beyond that.

The only reason that gold is going up in "value" is because the paper currency is going down in value. The true utility of gold itself isn't rising. There is no newly discovered use for gold.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

They want it because they can exchange with it and know that it is going to retain it's worth regardless of how the general economic weather turns.

Do you understand the concept of an exchange commodity? Do you know how impossible it would be to operate a global economy of this scale using raw, primitive barter?
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

To put it another way, why does Z want gold? Because Y is willing to take it. Y wants it because X is willing to take it. X wants it because W is willing to take it....and so one.

What happens once "A" gets it, peddles it back to "Z"? If "Z" wanted it, why didn't he keep it?

If gold just swings around to person to person, its a currency. A tangible currency? Sure, but its just a currency and holds little practical use beyond that.

People need "currency" to trade for goods and services. When confidence in fiat currency fails, you turn to something tangible. Gold and silver has always had value, so it's deemed a safe haven. It's that simple.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

They want it because they can exchange with it and know that it is going to retain it's worth regardless of how the general economic weather turns.

Do you understand the concept of an exchange commodity? Do you know how impossible it would be to operate a global economy of this scale using raw, primitive barter?

Don't forget, gold is a commodity and thus is valued based on supply and demand. In hard times like these, the demand is great. If the demand were to lessen, as people shift gold purchases back to equities like stocks, you'll see the value drop. It could be a large drop, depending on how much the metal is being used simply as a hedge against the economy. Thus, you may have a commodities bubble. My point being, don't buy gold thinking it's always going to be worth more day after day. It can drop like a rock, just like stocks, and you have to do diligence with it all the same.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

They want it because they can exchange with it and know that it is going to retain it's worth regardless of how the general economic weather turns.

Do you understand the concept of an exchange commodity? Do you know how impossible it would be to operate a global economy of this scale using raw, primitive barter?

Thats exactly my point. Gold's value is as a currency, (aside from jewelry and as a conductor) nothing more. Its a representation of perceived value, but behind the perception gold in itself is not that valuable.

Thats where I am confused.

Maybe its irrelevant.

Me personally, I would not go out and buy a brick of gold and think, "if the world went to ____ I can go exchange my gold for x amount of food and security." There is a long history of gold as a currency, but there is no guarantee that when you need something from your neighbor that they will accept your gold brick any more than a concrete brick.

Its all based on the prevailing perception.
 
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Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

Thats exactly my point. Gold's value is as a currency, nothing more. Its a representation of perceived value but behind the perception gold in itself is not that valuable.

Thats where I am confused.

Well, if you want to get to the atomic level, gold is valuable because there's limited supplies of it, and it's pretty. Otherwise it's a rock, more so than a currency. It has been used to back currency, which is probably where it gets confusing.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

Supply and demand only determine the price of a commodity. It would be a mistake to equate price with value.
 
Re: Anyone investing in stocks?

Supply and demand only determine the price of a commodity. It would be a mistake to equate price with value.

This is why I'm cautious about gold and silver right now. They may go to the moon, and I admit I felt cautious about silver when it was $16 an ounce (it's like 38-39ish right now). But, value is hard to determine when the fundamentals are wonky. I can say the value of a company is based on its assets and profitability, and I have a metric for that. Gold and silver right now are valued by what's happening in the markets and economies of the world rather than any change in supplies. That tells me at least some of the demand is artificial.
 
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