Star Wars: Ahsoka

[xipotec]

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but too many people seem to be missing my point, so I'm going to try this a more direct way.

I don't care how many Jedi were more powerful than Luke *before* the OT. I don't care how many Jedi become more powerful than Luke *after* the OT. What I do care about is the potentially more powerful Jedi existing *during* the OT... because THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY.

Context: While Kenobi and Yoda are patiently waiting 20 years in exile for a new hope to help topple the Empire, Ezra is getting Jedi training. Prior to ANH, he's already gifted enough to completely control the minds of Imperial drivers/pilots and whisk away a star destroyer with his incredible force control of space whales. He also has enough self control to let go of his loved ones, thereby leaving himself less vulnerable to the dark side. Luke and Leia were born one day after Ezra, who had years of training under his belt before Luke first touched a lightsaber.

Question: If Luke ends up being as lucky or inferior as you're suggesting, and he never develops the type of Force mastery in the OT that Ezra clearly demonstrated in the years leading up to it, then how does the main protagonist plot of the OT make any sense?

Obi-Wan knows about Ezra. Yoda knows about Ezra. If you're saying that Luke isn't all that special, then why are he and Leia considered so important? Why would Kenobi not send Ezra to Yoda? If Ezra is better at learning the Force, he would've lifted that x-wing out of the swamp and even twirled it in midair just for giggles. And training Ezra to kill Vader would mean getting to avoid the whole "kill your own father" ambition that so many fans insist Yoda and Kenobi had in mind.

My objections to characters like Ezra and Ahsoka are all predicated on context and wanting to preserve the plot integrity of the OT. If I'm still not being clear about this, then I'll just give up.

Ah I see what you are saying.

Well lets get the obvious out of the way, SW had not had the benefit of any kind of expanded story at the time, so there will always be inconsistencies.

I always viewed it as they thought, or believed that Luke would become more powerful in the force than Vader, Palpatine says as much as well…..trouble is, he didnt. What he does have, and what most of them failed to realize, is a human connection to Vader. Obi and Yoda pretty much give up on him when he flat out says he cant kill his own father (Then the Emperor has already won!)

They viewed Luke as a tool, one that would become so powerful, as to physically beat Vader…..they never expected him to win with emotion, not power. Once again, the established Jedi failed.

Ezra was in hiding. Up to a certain point , Jarrus did’t want them exposing Ezra to dangers. They were supose to be hiding. The interesting take with Rebels is the surviving Jedi, wanted to hide , while the new younger generation Jedi (Ezra) wanted to fight and get back what was lost. Thats the crux of Ezra and Kanens story for most of the show.

In short, Yoda has been dead wrong about alot, probably more than any other Jedi.

I also always saw the Jedi whom survived as trying to rebuild a force that could compete with the modern Empire. Ironically, The Empire came back much faster in the form of the First Order…

 

[jye4ever]

Great posts by Rebels supporters and detractors alike

 

[LiamNeesons112]

I really don’t get the hate for Ezra. Of course he can be annoying, he’s a teenager. Kids are annoying lol. WE were all annoying as kids. I have discovered this a lot while revisiting older video games (mainly RPGSs) from my childhood. I find myself resonating more with the older characters in the cast than the teenage protagonists of my favorite games.

I honestly don’t understand this Mary Sue talk either. Ezra is a flawed character who has his ups and his downs. He can’t even handle an Inquistor in a fair fight. He can connect with animals through the force, he’s not the second coming of Anakin. The show almost goes out of it’s way to show you how weak him and Kanan are compared to Vader, Maul, and Ahsoka. A guy like Cal Kestis is stronger than both of them and we saw how he struggles with Inquistors and ran like hell when he saw Vader.

Then the one example I see of him being an overpowered character is him outsmarting Thrawn. As silly as it sounds, how the heck did Thrawn know that he was going to get suicide bombed by Ezra and a pod of space whales? Who even plans for that? It wasn’t even treated like a “I am the better tactician than you” moment. It was an act of sheer desperation where the protagonist is overmatched and decides to sacrifice himself to win. Thrawn doesn’t even die, Ezra just bought his friends extra time to prepare for his return. Thrawn even asks Ezra why he’s doing what he’s doing because it doesn’t make sense.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I dunno man ... Vader was talkin' some smack about Luke's sister and still Bad Guy-ing all over the place until the scrappy lil' fella went berserk on him.

Agreed. Vader even let Palpatine fry Luke to the brink of death before finally stepping in. And if Vader didn't want to fight his son because he'd already been won over by love, he could've gone the team-up route with Luke to defeat Palps.

For a guy who suffered through being burned alive, watching his son get fried probably registered on a very visceral level. Lucas also retroactively used that moment to "rhyme" with the time when Anakin first turned to the dark side as Palpatine used that very same lightning to fry a Jedi. He chose to save the wrong guy back then, and now had a chance to make a redemptive choice.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Ah I see what you are saying.

Well lets get the obvious out of the way, SW had not had the benefit of any kind of expanded story at the time, so there will always be inconsistencies.

I always viewed it as they thought, or believed that Luke would become more powerful in the force than Vader, Palpatine says as much as well…..trouble is, he didnt. What he does have, and what most of them failed to realize, is a human connection to Vader. Obi and Yoda pretty much give up on him when he flat out says he cant kill his own father (Then the Emperor has already won!)

They viewed Luke as a tool, one that would become so powerful, as to physically beat Vader…..they never expected him to win with emotion, not power. Once again, the established Jedi failed.

Ezra was in hiding. Up to a certain point , Jarrus did’t want them exposing Ezra to dangers. They were supose to be hiding. The interesting take with Rebels is the surviving Jedi, wanted to hide , while the new younger generation Jedi (Ezra) wanted to fight and get back what was lost. Thats the crux of Ezra and Kanens story for most of the show.

In short, Yoda has been dead wrong about alot, probably more than any other Jedi.

I also always saw the Jedi whom survived as trying to rebuild a force that could compete with the modern Empire. Ironically, The Empire came back much faster in the form of the First Order…

Excellent post! I can't endorse or adopt your view of Yoda and Kenobi in the OT, but I gotta admit that it works well enough in terms of resolving narrative inconsistencies and reconciling new lore. You see Yoda and Kenobi as continuing to be short-sighted idiots who are encouraging an unprepared warrior to go kill his vastly more powerful father. But everything still ends up working out by way of just dumb luck because Palpatine decided to fry Luke slowly (and pause now and then for dramatic monologues), instead of just finish the job quickly. This gave Luke's appeals to Anakin enough time to turn him back to the light.

I respect that, but I prefer to view Yoda and Kenobi as being much more wise. I wouldn't value the saga anywhere near as much otherwise. I hang my hat on the Dagobah training scenes as being perfect foreshadowing of not just Luke's eventual destiny, but also of Yoda's complete awareness of it.

The Dagobah cave was framed to Luke as a failure by Yoda because he went into it with fear (and weapons), then allowed fear to control his actions into preemptive aggression (becoming just like Vader). He wasn't heeding Yoda's wisdom. And Yoda wasn't training a killer there. Or even simply a warrior ("wars not make one great").

Luke was taught about anger, fear, and aggression being the wrong path for a Jedi... but was slow to learn the lesson. He was taught about how the Force should only be used for knowledge and defense, never for attack... but was slow to learn the lesson.

He went to Bespin and failed the same way he did in the cave. And in the ROTJ duel, he was failing the same way yet again. Being goaded into aggression and anger, all stoked by fear. Then he caught himself, got calm, got passive, threw down his weapon... and finally learned Yoda's lesson. Finally graduated into becoming a true Jedi. I prefer that not be a coincidence, nor just lucky timing.

The quote from Lucas in my signature is a constant reminder that he knew how contradictory it would be to have Yoda and Kenobi intend for Luke to go kill his father. But he seemingly couldn't come up with a more elegant way of retaining audience suspense without that element of misdirection.

 

[e30ernest]

The show almost goes out of it’s way to show you how weak him and Kanan are compared to Vader, Maul, and Ahsoka

Yeah apart from the whole connecting with animals thing, Ezra never struck me as an overpowered Jedi. It's easier to compare both of them to Ahsoka since she directly interacts with them, and they are nowhere near her in terms of physical prowess or skill in the Force.

Ahsoka is no match for Vader too and Maul was still better than her too (she only won because Maul didn't want to kill her). It is implied Maul would not have won against Anakin/Vader too.

 

[LiamNeesons112]

Yeah apart from the whole connecting with animals thing, Ezra never struck me as an overpowered Jedi. It's easier to compare both of them to Ahsoka since she directly interacts with them, and they are nowhere near her in terms of physical prowess or skill in the Force.

Ahsoka is no match for Vader too and Maul was still better than her too (she only won because Maul didn't want to kill her). It is implied Maul would not have won against Anakin/Vader too.

One scene that sticks out to me is when they’re running from two inquisitors and Ahsoka shows up and just chops them down like nothing.

I agree! Maul actually showed some fear in knowing that Vader was coming to the Sith temple.

 

[e30ernest]

One scene that sticks out to me is when they’re running from two inquisitors and Ahsoka shows up and just chops them down like nothing.

I agree! Maul actually showed some fear in knowing that Vader was coming to the Sith temple.

Yeah Ahsoka is one of the strongest Force users in this era. It is a good thing they wrote her off the OT period by putting her in the World Between Worlds.

Ezra is technically not in the OT timeline either because of what he did with Thrawn.

That only leaves Luke @ajp4mgs.

 

[xipotec]

Excellent post! I can't endorse or adopt your view of Yoda and Kenobi in the OT, but I gotta admit that it works well enough in terms of resolving narrative inconsistencies and reconciling new lore. You see Yoda and Kenobi as continuing to be short-sighted idiots who are encouraging an unprepared warrior to go kill his vastly more powerful father. But everything still ends up working out by way of just dumb luck because Palpatine decided to fry Luke slowly (and pause now and then for dramatic monologues), instead of just finish the job quickly. This gave Luke's appeals to Anakin enough time to turn him back to the light.

I respect that, but I prefer to view Yoda and Kenobi as being much more wise. I wouldn't value the saga anywhere near as much otherwise. I hang my hat on the Dagobah training scenes as being perfect foreshadowing of not just Luke's eventual destiny, but also of Yoda's complete awareness of it.

The Dagobah cave was framed to Luke as a failure by Yoda because he went into it with fear (and weapons), then allowed fear to control his actions into preemptive aggression (becoming just like Vader). He wasn't heeding Yoda's wisdom. And Yoda wasn't training a killer there. Or even simply a warrior ("wars not make one great").

Luke was taught about anger, fear, and aggression being the wrong path for a Jedi... but was slow to learn the lesson. He was taught about how the Force should only be used for knowledge and defense, never for attack... but was slow to learn the lesson.

He went to Bespin and failed the same way he did in the cave. And in the ROTJ duel, he was failing the same way yet again. Being goaded into aggression and anger, all stoked by fear. Then he caught himself, got calm, got passive, threw down his weapon... and finally learned Yoda's lesson. Finally graduated into becoming a true Jedi. I prefer that not be a coincidence, nor just lucky timing.

The quote from Lucas in my signature is a constant reminder that he knew how contradictory it would be to have Yoda and Kenobi intend for Luke to go kill his father. But he seemingly couldn't come up with a more elegant way of retaining audience suspense without that element of misdirection.

I think this is all correct. From a ROTJ view. Yoda and Ben were not exactly in the same boat when it came to Lukes destiny. Ben definitely seemed the more “pushy” to have Vader killed by Luke. While yoda did espouse patience and controlling fear, I still think it was out of a necessity that they thought Luke could only defeat as a “fully trained Jedi knight” meaning a controlled fight, where Luke would be more stoic and not so ruled by emotions. Which you would need if you were going to really defeat your father in battle. They also were more ruled by the terrifying thought that Vader and Palps were going to turn Luke….I really think that was more the driving force behind the lessons on Dagobah. To control anything that might lead him down the dark side….

Lule showed what it was to be a true Jedi , by taking those lessons even further to reach the little humanity left in Anakin.

I have always believed Luke would have killed Vader if he had not seen his hand and Vaders hand at that crucial moment. I also believe Anakin would have killed Luke if Palps instructed him to before that scene….
Again pure chance made them both reach for one another at the crucial moment.

As a side note, I really think they writers missed a perfect opportunity with the ST. Luke was constantly warned “once you start down the dark path” ….and I believe when Vader set him off about Leia , he DID start down that path….and it should have forever dominated him.

The ST should have been about Luke slowly going mad as the dark side took him over, just like his father….

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yeah Ahsoka is one of the strongest Force users in this era. It is a good thing they wrote her off the OT period by putting her in the World Between Worlds.

Ezra is technically not in the OT timeline either because of what he did with Thrawn.

That only leaves Luke @ajp4mgs.

Not so fast.

I'm pretty sure that Ahsoka is actually very much around in the OT period. She left the World Between Worlds with Ezra and went back in the timeline to moments after her duel with Vader. She and the owl went down into a cave there on Malachor after Vader left. What she did there, or when she left, remains a mystery as far as I know. But you might find out about that time in this series.

As for Ezra, he's in the Unknown Regions during the OT, but that doesn't change the fact that he interacted with both Kenobi and Yoda before going there. So, if a powerful Jedi student who had already received some training and was well equipped to resist the dark side was known to Yoda and Kenobi, it sure seems strange to casually ignore Ezra's potential during such an urgent time of increasing Imperial oppression and threat. Also odd for them to not mention anything about Ahsoka or Ezra to Luke, as they surely would've been worth the effort to track down.

But I'm glad you agree that Ahsoka is too overpowered to fit in the OT era.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I think this is all correct. From a ROTJ view. Yoda and Ben were not exactly in the same boat when it came to Lukes destiny. Ben definitely seemed the more “pushy” to have Vader killed by Luke. While yoda did espouse patience and controlling fear, I still think it was out of a necessity that they thought Luke could only defeat as a “fully trained Jedi knight” meaning a controlled fight, where Luke would be more stoic and not so ruled by emotions. Which you would need if you were going to really defeat your father in battle. They also were more ruled by the terrifying thought that Vader and Palps were going to turn Luke….I really think that was more the driving force behind the lessons on Dagobah. To control anything that might lead him down the dark side….

Lule showed what it was to be a true Jedi , by taking those lessons even further to reach the little humanity left in Anakin.

I have always believed Luke would have killed Vader if he had not seen his hand and Vaders hand at that crucial moment. I also believe Anakin would have killed Luke if Palps instructed him to before that scene….
Again pure chance made them both reach for one another at the crucial moment.

As a side note, I really think they writers missed a perfect opportunity with the ST. Luke was constantly warned “once you start down the dark path” ….and I believe when Vader set him off about Leia , he DID start down that path….and it should have forever dominated him.

The ST should have been about Luke slowly going mad as the dark side took him over, just like his father….

I like that you brought up the prospect of Luke being tormented by the dark side after ROTJ. Going all the way back to when I was a kid, we used to debate whether or not Luke had actually gone down that path when he was whaling away on Vader.

I always thought that Luke only "dipped his toe," but didn't go far enough to get caught in the clutches. However, from what little I know about the Lucas treatment for his ST, Luke was supposed to have been portrayed very similarly to Brando's Kurtz from Apocalypse Now. So I guess it's quite possible that George intended for Luke to go through something very similar to what you're suggesting.

 

[e30ernest]

I'm pretty sure that Ahsoka is actually very much around in the OT period. She left the World Between Worlds with Ezra and went back in the timeline to moments after her duel with Vader. She and the owl went down into a cave there on Malachor after Vader left. What she did there, or when she left, remains a mystery as far as I know. But you might find out about that time in this series.

It's been a while since I watched the episode, but Wookiepedia has her going back to the World Between Worlds only to re-appear after ROTJ. So she could have either been in that plane, or trapped at Malachor all those years.

But yes, having Ahsoka available in the OT is problematic. I remember reading somewhere that Filoni and Co made it so neither Ezra nor Ahsoka would be available during the OT period to avoid conflicts with that era.

 

[chrisstbh]

It's been a while since I watched the episode, but Wookiepedia has her going back to the World Between Worlds only to re-appear after ROTJ. So she could have either been in that plane, or trapped at Malachor all those years.

But yes, having Ahsoka available in the OT is problematic. I remember reading somewhere that Filoni and Co made it so neither Ezra nor Ahsoka would be available during the OT period to avoid conflicts with that era.

It doesn’t matter if Ahsoka is around, I’ll say it for the 5,000,000th time; Luke was the only one that could bring about the defeat of Palpatine.

Ahsoka tried to take Vader down and failed, she was still around just helping in other ways. She wasn’t relevant to the events of the OT.

 

[chrisstbh]

https://deadline.com/2023/04/wes-chatham-ahsoka-disney-1235322615/

 

[xipotec]

I like that you brought up the prospect of Luke being tormented by the dark side after ROTJ. Going all the way back to when I was a kid, we used to debate whether or not Luke had actually gone down that path when he was whaling away on Vader.

I always thought that Luke only "dipped his toe," but didn't go far enough to get caught in the clutches. However, from what little I know about the Lucas treatment for his ST, Luke was supposed to have been portrayed very similarly to Brando's Kurtz from Apocalypse Now. So I guess it's quite possible that George intended for Luke to go through something very similar to what you're suggesting.

Great posts BTW.

I think that Luke story would have been fantastic , But since half the fandom cried foul with Luke just temporarily succumbing to DS impulses, my guess it would not have been well recieved.

They wanted a perfect OP Luke, not a human flawed scarred Luke….I find the latter story much more interesting.

 

[jaztermareal]

bit of a false equivalency. I dont think folk were asking for a perfect OP Luke, they were asking for character consistency. Luke COULD be tempted by the darkside and even struggle with it. Heck, I think folk would even be OK with Luke eventually turning, it just needed to be done correctly. It is not in character for Luke to get scared by his young nephews dreams and decide to kill him. It would be in character for Luke to give in to Darkness to protect those he cares about. he is someone who sees the best in people, almost naively. he would be more likely to allow his pupils to turn dark rather than preemptively take them out. The kind of mistake he would make is to not see someone is a lost cause

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

 

[jaztermareal]

As a side note, I really think they writers missed a perfect opportunity with the ST. Luke was constantly warned “once you start down the dark path” ….and I believe when Vader set him off about Leia , he DID start down that path….and it should have forever dominated him.

the dark side is not some sort of mind control virus. It is simply the shortcut, the easy way out.

Yoda's warning was not that once you dip your toes in the dark side it will haunt you and eventually you will turn, it is that once you compromise and take the easy route you will be tempted to do so again because that is human (and alien) nature.

Someone who has killed will find killing again easier than a first timer. Someone who has resorted to violence in the past to deal with problems will likely do so again. It doesn't mean they cannot change, some very violent people can be re-formed, it just takes effort to avoid temptation to take negative actions.

Anakin gave in the dark to slay the tuskens in anger as the easy way to deal with them (rather than say, try to get authorities involved or some other non violent action) but continued on to be a "good" man in the light side, even a hero, but he had learned that action can remove a problem immediately rather than waiting for the proper processes to deal with it and potentially allow future victims to fall at the hands of enemies. He decided with Dooku that just killing him would be better than taking him prisoner, again the easy way out. But that was Aniakin, he was shaped by the fact he saw people being victimised through inaction on the part of those in authority, he grew up a slave after all, so his worldview and experiences/losses made him particularly vulnerable to that way of thinking.

Given that Luke was not one to seek power the way Anakin did he likely would not have been as tempted by such shortcuts, though he did have the weakness Anakin had of being protective of his loved ones, so that is where his flaws should have been shown to be exploited from. His protectiveness of Kylo should have been what allowed Kylo to go on to become a Sith/Ren/whatever.

 

[jaztermareal]

View attachment 633508

her face almost looks animated in that low quality cam shot

 

[davejames]

I really don’t get the hate for Ezra. Of course he can be annoying, he’s a teenager. Kids are annoying lol. WE were all annoying as kids. I have discovered this a lot while revisiting older video games (mainly RPGSs) from my childhood. I find myself resonating more with the older characters in the cast than the teenage protagonists of my favorite games.

I honestly don’t understand this Mary Sue talk either. Ezra is a flawed character who has his ups and his downs. He can’t even handle an Inquistor in a fair fight. He can connect with animals through the force, he’s not the second coming of Anakin. The show almost goes out of it’s way to show you how weak him and Kanan are compared to Vader, Maul, and Ahsoka. A guy like Cal Kestis is stronger than both of them and we saw how he struggles with Inquistors and ran like hell when he saw Vader.

Then the one example I see of him being an overpowered character is him outsmarting Thrawn. As silly as it sounds, how the heck did Thrawn know that he was going to get suicide bombed by Ezra and a pod of space whales? Who even plans for that? It wasn’t even treated like a “I am the better tactician than you” moment. It was an act of sheer desperation where the protagonist is overmatched and decides to sacrifice himself to win. Thrawn doesn’t even die, Ezra just bought his friends extra time to prepare for his return. Thrawn even asks Ezra why he’s doing what he’s doing because it doesn’t make sense.

Agreed, and honestly nothing bores me more than endless debates over the power levels of various Jedi, and who should or shouldn't be more powerful than Luke in the OT. If certain movies or cartoons want to go a bit crazier with the force powers and have people leaping all about or freezing laser blasts in midair or being stronger in the force without any training, I have no problem whatsoever with it. Since we're talking about a very mystical power here that has never been all that well defined, and that different people might very well be able to tap into in different ways.