Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[jye4ever]

a-dev's answer pretty much covers how I perceived Kenobi and Yoda's isolated existences...



... but I'd like to add some things on Kenobi. Movie dialogue is pretty much all I had in the OT days to decipher what Kenobi's history, current state of mind, and general purpose was. Most of the relevant dialogue took place during that one scene at his residence. Each line there added a puzzle piece which helped me form an overall picture.

"I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father."

The key here is the past tense of "was once." That implied that whatever a Jedi Knight was, Obi-Wan was retired from duty.

"I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself."

This line told me that Obi-Wan kept an interest in Luke because of his prior friendship with Anakin. And a bit earlier, he told Luke that Owen thought Anakin "should've stayed here and not gotten involved." This suggests that Anakin, Owen, and Kenobi all lived on Tatooine before any involvement in what was referred to as "the Clone Wars." Owen stayed, and Anakin followed his friend Obi-Wan into service. We know this because...

"Your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade, like your father did."

Obi-Wan was the idealistic one; the one who motivated Anakin to join the cause. This makes it easy to understand if Kenobi had regrets. If not for his influence, Owen wouldn't have lost a brother (in-law?), and Luke wouldn't have lost a father.

"I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."

Kenobi still believed in "the cause," but he couldn't do it alone. He obviously felt that the Rebellion was important enough to go risk his life for. When the Leia hologram said that survival of the Rebellion depended on this mission, Kenobi had no choice but to be forced back into action. And it was *this* that motivated him to train Luke. It got an added layer when we later found out that Kenobi knew Leia was Luke's sister.

"You must do what you feel is right, of course."

Kenobi wouldn't have insisted that Luke leave Owen to learn about the Force. But fate stepped in when the Lars couple was killed and Luke's obligations ended there on Tatooine.

To me, it didn't seem back then that Kenobi was hanging out waiting for Luke to bring peace and liberty back to the galaxy. This is supported by the fact that Yoda didn't want to train Luke (too old, and too much like his father). If age was an issue, there's no way 20 years would've gone by before introducing this prodigy to the Force and a heroic destiny. It was the urgency of Leia's message that motivated the training to begin. And after destroying the Death Star, Luke showed enough promise to perhaps be reason to hope for the Empire's defeat.

I'll spare you yet another diatribe about how the PT reframed everything. For now.

Wait did Anakin really follow ObiWan on some idealistic crusade after being convinced by ObiWan to join the cause?

Funny because I thought Anakin the child was taken away from his mother after she was brainwashed by QuiGon lol

Great points a-dev and ajp, I totally agree.

Both Obi-Wan and Yoda seemed partially resigned to the current status quo of the galaxy, wishing things were different but not willing to force people to do what they didn't want to do or even encourage willing people to act if they weren't qualified for the task. Yoda's dialogue in ESB even heavily suggests that Luke was at best Yoda's *second* choice to defeat the Emperor with the "other" being his first choice. But the other was far away (or not yet born ) and Luke was right here and willing so...against Yoda's preferences he agreed to train Luke.

Which is just another reason I have absolutely no problem with the latter's fall from grace years later in TLJ. In the PT Yoda was the one Master who didn't want Anakin to be trained and in the OT he didn't want to train Luke. Both times Yoda's misgivings ended up being valid at one point or another. I know there are many fans who wanted Luke to forever be the "Bestest Jedi EVAR" after ROTJ but I never got the impression that that would be his path after ROTJ.

He was just going to be the *only* Jedi for a time and training a new generation without the influence of the Sith. Kind of easy to be the "best" under such circumstances. But even as his mastery of the Force grew he remained the same flawed human who would always need to be vigilant of his own recklessness and later hubris. For me it totally works, for those whom is doesn't well you have cartoon Luke hacking droids in Mando. Everyone wins.

SWT guy favorite saturday morning cartoon is the Mando Luke episode lol

 

[DiFabio]

a-dev's answer pretty much covers how I perceived Kenobi and Yoda's isolated existences...



... but I'd like to add some things on Kenobi. Movie dialogue is pretty much all I had in the OT days to decipher what Kenobi's history, current state of mind, and general purpose was. Most of the relevant dialogue took place during that one scene at his residence. Each line there added a puzzle piece which helped me form an overall picture.

"I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father."

The key here is the past tense of "was once." That implied that whatever a Jedi Knight was, Obi-Wan was retired from duty.

"I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself."

This line told me that Obi-Wan kept an interest in Luke because of his prior friendship with Anakin. And a bit earlier, he told Luke that Owen thought Anakin "should've stayed here and not gotten involved." This suggests that Anakin, Owen, and Kenobi all lived on Tatooine before any involvement in what was referred to as "the Clone Wars." Owen stayed, and Anakin followed his friend Obi-Wan into service. We know this because...

"Your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade, like your father did."

Obi-Wan was the idealistic one; the one who motivated Anakin to join the cause. This makes it easy to understand if Kenobi had regrets. If not for his influence, Owen wouldn't have lost a brother (in-law?), and Luke wouldn't have lost a father.

"I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."

Kenobi still believed in "the cause," but he couldn't do it alone. He obviously felt that the Rebellion was important enough to go risk his life for. When the Leia hologram said that survival of the Rebellion depended on this mission, Kenobi had no choice but to be forced back into action. And it was *this* that motivated him to train Luke. It got an added layer when we later found out that Kenobi knew Leia was Luke's sister.

"You must do what you feel is right, of course."

Kenobi wouldn't have insisted that Luke leave Owen to learn about the Force. But fate stepped in when the Lars couple was killed and Luke's obligations ended there on Tatooine.

To me, it didn't seem back then that Kenobi was hanging out waiting for Luke to bring peace and liberty back to the galaxy. This is supported by the fact that Yoda didn't want to train Luke (too old, and too much like his father). If age was an issue, there's no way 20 years would've gone by before introducing this prodigy to the Force and a heroic destiny. It was the urgency of Leia's message that motivated the training to begin. And after destroying the Death Star, Luke showed enough promise to perhaps be reason to hope for the Empire's defeat.

I'll spare you yet another diatribe about how the PT reframed everything. For now.

Back when Vader and Anakin weren’t the same person.

 

[jye4ever]

I am a butt guy like my father before me

 

[e30ernest]

I'm catching up....

As for Luke, I used to be in these threads defending the films and their characterization of Luke. It?s not the worst thing in the ST, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in the hope that the interpretation served some greater storytelling purpose.
Once TROS was released, and I realized that the movies were literally building a monument to nothing, just haphazardly throwing plot and characterization twists at the wall to see what stuck, it became harder to buy into the characterization of Luke.

Yeah IMO TROS was a far worse film in terms of story and character development than TLJ was. TLJ is getting a bad rap because people simply did not expect Luke to go that way. IMO the ST would have been much better had they stuck to the storylines TLJ started to steer into rather than walk back in fear of the "fans".

His first Star Trek was pretty good. He looks like a Trekkie fan too, which clearly ruined his vision of SW. Hollywood is a good place to fail upwards, or at least knowing how to blackmail people I suppose.

I didn't know he was involved in the Amazon LOTR, just the WarnerMedia DC stuff.

As a Trekker, I felt JJ to be more on the SW side of things. His Star Trek films felt more like SW movies set in the Star Trek universe (which it isn't even in the "Prime" universe).

Tragic that Star Wars is being kept on life support by simply going viral with a character that is really not much more than a cute meme designed to sell Funko Pops.

Dammit...

a-dev's answer pretty much covers how I perceived Kenobi and Yoda's isolated existences...



... but I'd like to add some things on Kenobi. Movie dialogue is pretty much all I had in the OT days to decipher what Kenobi's history, current state of mind, and general purpose was. Most of the relevant dialogue took place during that one scene at his residence. Each line there added a puzzle piece which helped me form an overall picture.

"I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father."

The key here is the past tense of "was once." That implied that whatever a Jedi Knight was, Obi-Wan was retired from duty.

"I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself."

This line told me that Obi-Wan kept an interest in Luke because of his prior friendship with Anakin. And a bit earlier, he told Luke that Owen thought Anakin "should've stayed here and not gotten involved." This suggests that Anakin, Owen, and Kenobi all lived on Tatooine before any involvement in what was referred to as "the Clone Wars." Owen stayed, and Anakin followed his friend Obi-Wan into service. We know this because...

"Your uncle wouldn't allow it. He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade, like your father did."

Obi-Wan was the idealistic one; the one who motivated Anakin to join the cause. This makes it easy to understand if Kenobi had regrets. If not for his influence, Owen wouldn't have lost a brother (in-law?), and Luke wouldn't have lost a father.

"I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."

Kenobi still believed in "the cause," but he couldn't do it alone. He obviously felt that the Rebellion was important enough to go risk his life for. When the Leia hologram said that survival of the Rebellion depended on this mission, Kenobi had no choice but to be forced back into action. And it was *this* that motivated him to train Luke. It got an added layer when we later found out that Kenobi knew Leia was Luke's sister.

"You must do what you feel is right, of course."

Kenobi wouldn't have insisted that Luke leave Owen to learn about the Force. But fate stepped in when the Lars couple was killed and Luke's obligations ended there on Tatooine.

To me, it didn't seem back then that Kenobi was hanging out waiting for Luke to bring peace and liberty back to the galaxy. This is supported by the fact that Yoda didn't want to train Luke (too old, and too much like his father). If age was an issue, there's no way 20 years would've gone by before introducing this prodigy to the Force and a heroic destiny. It was the urgency of Leia's message that motivated the training to begin. And after destroying the Death Star, Luke showed enough promise to perhaps be reason to hope for the Empire's defeat.

I'll spare you yet another diatribe about how the PT reframed everything. For now.

I've always agreed on your take on the ST, PT and OT. The PT definitely reframed a lot of things. Your take on Luke and how he was characterized all the way to TLJ is spot-on in my opinion.

HEAR THAT DUCKY? THE ST IS THE PT'S FAULT!

 

[matticus]

 

[xipotec]

As a slight tangent but still following on from the discussion. Before the PT, when you first saw the OT did you ever wonder why Old Ben was just there on Tatooine and Yoda on Dagobah. Did you view them as sitting out the fight, hiding and reactively waiting for the Skywalker children or did you imagine something else? I saw the OT and PT so close together that I can?t really remember a time when it was just OT but I am curious to hear the thoughts of those who were there at the beginning and had years to meditate on this?

Having seen them in theaters in order, I think the vast majority of people thought they were hiding .....that?s they would be killed if they were found, and that they were too old to pick up and fight.

They both say as much.
Ben: ?I am getting to old for this sort of thing?

Yoda:when 900 year old you reach look as good you will not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[e30ernest]

Having seen them in theaters in order, I think the vast majority of people thought they were hiding .....that?s they would be killed if they were found, and that they were too old to pick up and fight.

They both say as much.
Ben: ?I am getting to old for this sort of thing?

Yoda:when 900 year old you reach look as good you will not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The problem with the "too old" reason is that, just less than 19 years ago, Yoda was doing flips and somersaults against the emperor while Kenobi was doing an extended fight that would put the world's most fit fighters into cardio hell above lava.

So yeah, the PT really did reframe all that.

 

[matticus]

 

[jye4ever]

 

[ajp4mgs]

Back when Vader and Anakin weren?t the same person.

The "I am your father" reveal was a twist worth turning Kenobi into a liar for. But it still amazes me that Alec Guinness made that perfect eye-shifting expression before telling Luke how his father "died." Like the eventual twist was actually planned.

At the time, it just seemed like Kenobi's reaction to how uncomfortable it would be to deliver that kind of news about his dad's murder. But after ESB, it still worked well as seeming uncomfortable at having to lie to Luke. Makes me appreciate the Guinness casting that much more every time I watch him give that look before delivering his dialogue.

I've always agreed on your take on the ST, PT and OT. The PT definitely reframed a lot of things. Your take on Luke and how he was characterized all the way to TLJ is spot-on in my opinion.

I've been assuming for a while now that there isn't anyone here who sees each of the 9 episode movies the same way I do, so it's awesome to learn differently. Much appreciated.

 

[Zurdo95D]

So, Rogue One was basically the real suicide squad

 

[ironwez20]

View attachment 514472

We are keepers of the peace not soldiers.

Ummmmm u sure bout that mace?

 

[jye4ever]

I just want to go on record to say that a-dev’s post on kenobi and Yoda was Terminator quantum mechanics level of quality and precision.

 

[Khev]

So, Rogue One was basically the real suicide squad

Indeed it was.

What'd you think?

I just want to go on record to say that a-dev?s post on kenobi and Yoda was Terminator quantum mechanics level of quality and precision.

It sure was.

 

[Wor-Gar]

The "I am your father" reveal was a twist worth turning Kenobi into a liar for. But it still amazes me that Alec Guinness made that perfect eye-shifting expression before telling Luke how his father "died." Like the eventual twist was actually planned.

At the time, it just seemed like Kenobi's reaction to how uncomfortable it would be to deliver that kind of news about his dad's murder. But after ESB, it still worked well as seeming uncomfortable at having to lie to Luke. Makes me appreciate the Guinness casting that much more every time I watch him give that look before delivering his dialogue.

Hitchcock was deliberately vague in much of his directing. He knew that if he set everything up right, that the audience would project what he wanted onto the actor.

Audiences have improved, explained and justified so many of Star Wars' handicaps that it never ceases to amaze just how right Hitchcock was.

 

[Khev]

Hitchcock was deliberately vague in much of his directing. He knew that if he set everything up right, that the audience would project what he wanted onto the actor.

Audiences have improved, explained and justified so many of Star Wars' handicaps that it never ceases to amaze just how right Hitchcock was.

Yep Tarantino said that every film is co-directed by the audience as well and I agree.

 

[matticus]

The audience sure didn't direct BvS.

 

[Zurdo95D]

Indeed it was.

What'd you think?



It sure was.

Yeah it is another good SW film!

Spoiler

So, before going on to Mandalorian S2, I went ahead and watched RO since if I'm not mistaken takes place right before ANH. Of course, it's an entertaining, enjoyable movie, though not to the magnitude of the OT, in my opinion. I liked Ms. Jones as JE, I thought she was a great lead. The highlight for me would be third act, I felt it was more in line with how the OT played out and again the stakes were high. I liked how it tied the Death Star plans from ANH.

Some more thoughts:

- I kinda wish Jyn and Cassian flew away on a ship to escape Scarif
- Tarkin is cemented as a GOAT villain
- DV and Krennic reminded me of Bane and Dagget from TDKR, lol
- Oh dang that final scene with Princess Leia!
- Darth Vader's castle is on Mustafar!!
- I need a bacta tank
- Gosh darn, the battle sequences are spectacular

 

[Prime Clone]

We are keepers of the peace not soldiers.

Ummmmm u sure bout that mace?

Full quote in context: "If they do, you must realize there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

It was more a numbers game. Once they had the clones it was all good!

 

[Prime Clone]

It's impossible for we fans of a certain age to discuss the PT or ST outside the context of the OT.

If you take the OT out of the equation:

* The PT has better visual design and world-building, and arguably a better story.
* The ST has better writing, directing and acting.

The PT was criticised for being too different to the OT, the ST for being too similar. But would any of us be interested in either without the OT?

Side note: After seeing the totally immersive, overwhelming space battle in GOTG I was expecting similar from the ST. The closest we came was the final act of TROS, and even that wasn't as good.