Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

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Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

And yet, I'm the exact opposite. Myself, my son, my closest friends & people I Know in "real life" all thought it was a steaming pile of crap. Only a couple thought it was just OK.

And in regards to the PT, whether you liked it or not, we got many very memorable characters and vehicles. We got nothing from the ST. Kylo Ren was the closest as he looked cool at 1st, but removing his mask so early was a big mistake. Imagine Vader running around in ESB & ROTJ without a helmet... Just look at toy & collectible sales to prove that. No, or very few, peg warmers are from the OT or even the PT. Even Kylo Ren barely sells.

Hey, I'll agree with you on the vehicles, trooper designs, etc.. the PT and Clone Wars gave us some very cool stuff! The ST is supposed to be a different era and is much farther in the future, so it makes sense that everything is different (more refined and modernized look). It's like comparing modern military stuff to WWII stuff.

Whichever you prefer is all a matter of opinion and taste. I like the way the troopers and vehicles looked more in the PT myself as well. And I do buy way more OT & PT toys than the ST stuff. I'd rather play with cooler looking toys lol

But cool looking characters and vehicles dont make for a better movie. You need actual direction, scripts and acting for that. To say the PT is superior in that regard is pretty far fetched imo.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Yeah there's no question that the dialogue is lightyears better in the ST than the PT. It's always a pet peeve of mine when the characters that I'm supposed to be relating to refuse to ask the obvious questions.

Anakin: "Wait so after you carrying on for days about how I should learn from you and use your knowledge to save Padme I decide to help you murder the head of the Jedi Order only to find out that you don't really know this power!? That would have been good information to have 30 SECONDS AGO!!!"

lol
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Nice to see some more folks showing they liked the ST.....

Its not what alot of fans think, as we see in alot ratings its about 50/50.

The interesting thing is , those on the 50% dislike side seem to be extreme in their views. Its not, “I didnt care for it” or “not my cup of tea” kind of sentiment, its much more visceral, and savage. Its a very very negative view, I am not sure why that is....it doesn’t seem justified? I think it may all boil down to anger about missed opportunities and not living up to the incredible head cannon some people created over 20 years.

While on the other side, its a more balanced “I liked it, or I like most of it” Not too many people gush over it , to equal the vitriol from the negative side....

Its an interesting thing to ponder...



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

And yet, I'm the exact opposite. Myself, my son, my closest friends & people I Know in "real life" all thought it was a steaming pile of crap. Only a couple thought it was just OK.

And in regards to the PT, whether you liked it or not, we got many very memorable characters and vehicles. We got nothing from the ST. Kylo Ren was the closest as he looked cool at 1st, but removing his mask so early was a big mistake. Imagine Vader running around in ESB & ROTJ without a helmet... Just look at toy & collectible sales to prove that. No, or very few, peg warmers are from the OT or even the PT. Even Kylo Ren barely sells.

As Reefer Shark pointed out, I don't think anyone will disagree with your point from a merchandising standpoint. But is selling action figures, or calling a costume "cool," how to properly prioritize the goals in making a film? Wait . . . are you actually George Lucas!? ;)

You may think that removing Kylo's mask was a bad idea in terms of selling toys, but that's precisely the problem with the PT vs. ST arguments. From my perspective, removing Kylo's helmet allowed Adam Driver to deliver a much more impactful acting performance. Overall, that acting helped Kylo become a more compelling character. A lot of that was made possible through not having a mask over his face.

Yeah, Vader's mask worked on all levels - but that's because Vader's character was supposed to be shrouded in mystery, and portrayed with inhuman levels of cruelty. Vader's mask served an actual story purpose. Kylo, on the other hand, was established right away as Han and Leia's son. So, what story purpose would it serve to keep his helmet on instead of showing the Ben Solo aspect of Kylo Ren (and allowing Driver to deliver a fuller performance)?
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

CE8C4843-5BB9-4682-AE59-DC5DBB3E1E0B.jpeg



:lol

I think we should replace the Vader "Nooooo" with Toht's girlish, sheer-terror scream!
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Nice to see some more folks showing they liked the ST.....

Its not what alot of fans think, as we see in alot ratings its about 50/50.

The interesting thing is , those on the 50% dislike side seem to be extreme in their views. Its not, “I didnt care for it” or “not my cup of tea” kind of sentiment, its much more visceral, and savage. Its a very very negative view, I am not sure why that is....it doesn’t seem justified? I think it may all boil down to anger about missed opportunities and not living up to the incredible head cannon some people created over 20 years.

While on the other side, its a more balanced “I liked it, or I like most of it” Not too many people gush over it , to equal the vitriol from the negative side....

Its an interesting thing to ponder...



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Definitely! That's was the point I was trying to make about the negative views being much "louder" than the positive ones. It's this way with everything though, not just our beloved Star Wars movies lol
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

As Reefer Shark pointed out, I don't think anyone will disagree with your point from a merchandising standpoint. But is selling action figures, or calling a costume "cool," how to properly prioritize the goals in making a film? Wait . . . are you actually George Lucas!? ;)

You may think that removing Kylo's mask was a bad idea in terms of selling toys, but that's precisely the problem with the PT vs. ST arguments. From my perspective, removing Kylo's helmet allowed Adam Driver to deliver a much more impactful acting performance. Overall, that acting helped Kylo become a more compelling character. A lot of that was made possible through not having a mask over his face.

Yeah, Vader's mask worked on all levels - but that's because Vader's character was supposed to be shrouded in mystery, and portrayed with inhuman levels of cruelty. Vader's mask served an actual story purpose. Kylo, on the other hand, was established right away as Han and Leia's son. So, what story purpose would it serve to keep his helmet on instead of showing the Ben Solo aspect of Kylo Ren (and allowing Driver to deliver a fuller performance)?

That was my take on it as well. I wasn't expecting to see that going into TFA, but it made for a more powerful performance and helped deliver a more complexed character.

Kylo Ren is not Darth Vader, and thank god he's not. Imagine the uproard if they just did a straight Vader clone as the new villain? lol
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

:lol:lol

Nothing I can post here will change anyone's mind about ROTS. And I wouldn't even want to. I actually envy anyone who thinks highly of it because I wish like crazy that I could regard ROTS as a good film, or even just an enjoyable one. But I don't think I'll ever see it as anything other than a complete mess. And it actually blows my mind how ROTS is perceived as a superior film to either of the ST movies. Not even remotely close, IMO. Not in acting, writing, dialogue, cinematography, effects, sophistication, coherency . . . not in *any* way whatsoever.

I could spend all day going over how cringey the Artoo oil slapstick was . . . how goofy and lame the elevator sequence was . . . the WTF that Grievous was . . . the absurdity of what the final lightsaber duel turned into . . . and on and on (in typical embarrassing PT form). But none of that matters anywhere near as much as what a cluster**** ROTS made of the turning of Anakin into Vader. The most important storyline/plot in the entire Skywalker Saga became an utter joke (even before we get to "NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"). And I never would've even thought it possible before the PT. An epic possibility turned into an epic fail.

ROTS didn't establish any believable rationale for Anakin's turn. In fact, much of the story even undermines the notion that Anakin would ever serve an evil master at all! From lighthearted banter with Obi-Wan . . . to his increased sense for him as a father figure . . . to his affection for Padme and his unborn child(ren). Even him resisting slicing off Dooku's head until he was ordered to "dew it." Why!? This guy had cut off Anakin's hand and totally embarrassed him; so with Kenobi unconscious, *that* was an opportunity to show how Anakin's experience with the Tuskens in AOTC had evolved. Show that he was more lost soul than meets the eye, and that his instincts had changed. But nope; gotta keep Anakin's good nature prevalent enough so that when he turns at the end, and is willing to hurt/kill the two people he cared most about (Padme & Kenobi), we're left saying, "Wait . . . what!?"

All the while, not a single friggin' Jedi *Master* could sense what was going on! After all the talk in the first 5 movies about "search your feelings" and "I can sense the (fill in the blank) in you" we're supposed to believe that all of these super-powerful Jedi *Masters* were completely oblivious to whatever deep turmoil would cause Anakin to embrace the dark side? Think about how that conflicts with what came before: Vader could sense Luke's thoughts, even about his secret sister; Luke could sense Vader's conflict; Yoda could see young Luke's ambitions . . . from ACROSS THE GALAXY!!. But not one of these great and powerful Jedi could sense what was happening to Anakin, right there next to them!?

And he turned to save his wife from dying. The motive that nearly 20 years to think about in order to explain Luke's father murdering countless people in servitude to an evil master was . . . just to learn the power/ability to keep his wife alive? The one who he turns around and levels accusations at before choking her? :lol Ridiculous. To this day - and after THREE prequel films, if anyone is asked by someone who doesn't watch SW why Anakin turned evil, there won't be a consistent (or coherent) answer from fans who actually love this stuff. That's what ROTS will leave as its legacy: a convoluted mess that ended up leaving as many questions as it provided in answers. Not a good film in a cinematic sense, but a much worse film in terms of justifying its own existence.



I spent all that time writing, and jye does it better in one sentence. I'll get the hang of this eventually. :lol

You cannot blame ROTS for not establishing a believable rationale for his turn because it was supposed to be built up over a 3 film arc, the other 2 proceeding films failed miserably at doing so in many ways. Phantom menace was supposed to plant the seed, the Jedi essentially ripped him away from the one person he loved most, and forced him to leave her behind because QGJ would not save her too. This scarred Anakin from a young age, it was his compassion and love for his family and friends that made him unique and gave him great strength. He chose to help these random people on tatoonie (who he didn’t know were jedi until after) because he cared about people, he loved his mother, but was told not to love by the jedi, to repress his feelings, that caring and attachment were bad; to leave her behind against what his heart told him to do. Instead of really focusing on playing on these aspects GL chose to focus on Jar Jar binks, gungans and slapstick comedy.

Attoc was supposed to further his decent, the killing of his mother by the tuskens, was in itself, the straw that broke the camel’s back. He felt so much guilt over this, and deeply resented the Jedi for not letting him help her, for teaching him that love, compassion and emotional attachment are not the jedi way. He felt directly responsible for his mothers death, all that pent up emotion and rage was unleashed on the tusken. The huge problem with that scene is two fold, first Hayden couldn't act for **** so all the emotional impact was lost, 2nd the slaughter was not shown, then directly afterwards he proceeded to cry like a baby to Padma (George messing things up more). Again this is not a problem with Sith, but a failure of the other two films. Now if you put all this together, him letting his mother die at the bequest of the jedi, the dreams of Padma dying, Yoda telling him to let go of things he fears to lose, rejoice over those that join the force- and his old friend and mentor telling him that the jedi are plotting to take over and that he can help him save padme (something the jedi would never do because they would forbid him from even loving her to begin with). He had to hide is love for her because of the old rigid jedi tradition. So I think Sith did the best it could to convey his turn (especially if you consider the events George and hayden did a poor job of showing in other two films you cannot view sith in a bubble)- I can see why he turned, the dream of padme’s death, yoda’s ******** advice, and the ploting of the jedi against his old friend was the final nail in the coffin. He was not going to lose another loved one because of the Jedi, which is why in his view the Jedi are evil.

The last Jedi failed at explaining why luke forsaked everything he cared about and became a weirdo hermit with a fettish for alien nipples
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

:lol at Jye's Nos

Lol, they should also add a fart noise from a bursting lava bubble after Arnold goes under.

Lucas would have totally done that.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

:lol

:lol :lol

Not to mention how stupid a line (and thought) "And I will learn how to keep people from dying" is. That's like something an idiotic four year old might say while playing with action figures not a grown *** man to his adult girlfriend, lol.

:rotfl

Unfortunately, the phrase "something an idiotic four year old might say" can be applied to way too much of the PT.

Remember that scene in AOTC where Padme says ''Anakin...you've grown up'' - how I LOLed. Especially when, not 10 seconds later, he's having a terrible 2's tantrum about Obi-wan :lol

And who can forget the one that ruined the final scene between Obi-wan and Anakin on Mustufar - ''I HATE YOU!!!'', like a teenage girl whose parents have grounded her before the big party at Jessica's house. :slap

Thank god I'm able to mentally separate that Anakin from Vader in the OT.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

[emoji38] at Jye's Nos



[emoji38]





Remember that scene in AOTC where Padme says ''Anakin...you've grown up'' - how I LOLed. Especially when, not 10 seconds later, he's having a terrible 2's tantrum about Obi-wan [emoji38]

And who can forget the one that ruined the final scene between Obi-wan and Anakin on Mustufar - ''I HATE YOU!!!'', like a teenage girl whose parents have grounded her before the big party at Jessica's house. :slap

Thank god I'm able to mentally separate that Anakin from Vader in the OT.
Oh, too true! [emoji38]



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

And who can forget the one that ruined the final scene between Obi-wan and Anakin on Mustufar - ''I HATE YOU!!!'', like a teenage girl whose parents have grounded her before the big party at Jessica's house. :slap

:lol :lol

Yeah what was he expecting, that Obi-Wan would gasp, drop his lightsaber and put his hand over his mouth, lol. I mean you just spent the last 20 minutes trying to slice Kenobi in half Anakin I think it's pretty well safe to say that hatred was implied, lol.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

:lol :lol

Yeah what was he expecting, that Obi-Wan would gasp, drop his lightsaber and put his hand over his mouth, lol. I mean you just spent the last 20 minutes trying to slice Kenobi in half Anakin I think it's pretty well safe to say that hatred was implied, lol.

I'll agree that that line leaves a LOT to be desired, but cut the guy some slack, will ya? At that moment, his junk was literally on fire.
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

So I think Sith did the best it could to convey his turn (especially if you consider the events George and hayden did a poor job of showing in other two films you cannot view sith in a bubble)- I can see why he turned, the dream of padme’s death, yoda’s ******** advice, and the ploting of the jedi against his old friend was the final nail in the coffin. He was not going to lose another loved one because of the Jedi, which is why in his view the Jedi are evil.

The last Jedi failed at explaining why luke forsaked everything he cared about and became a weirdo hermit with a fettish for alien nipples

Gotta disagree with your take on Anakin's view of the Jedi, and how that impacted his turn to the dark side. In fact, it's part of the reason why his turn in ROTS was so stupid (only my opinion, of course).

Anakin wasn't sure that the Jedi had good and valid intentions. Fine. He resented their suspicions and misgivings. Fine. BUT . . . then he realized that Palpatine *was indeed* a Sith, and very much validated the Jedi Council's trepidation and uneasiness. Everything the Jedi Council had done with respect to being cautious about Chancellor Palpatine proved Anakin *wrong* to have doubted them.

So, when Anakin turned to serve Palpatine, you're suggesting that part of the rationale was established in ROTS by way of Anakin deeming the Jedi evil!? Um, no. :lol He saw that Palps was the actual evil manipulator (even was the one who informed Mace about it), and that the Jedi had every reason to be suspicious and cautious . . . yet he still chose to turn on them in order to serve an evil master. He seems to have done it to "keep Padme from dying." :lol That's absurd, and flimsily established. And it gets even more convoluted considering that he finds out she died before going on to serve Palpatine for another 20 years.

Sorry, you can justify ROTS logic all you want, but I think it fails on so many levels that it's almost not even funny. But I'm glad you dig it. Wish I could too.

And I strongly disagree with your assertion that TLJ failed to explain Luke's motives. The film actually took the time to have Luke spell it all out for Rey. :lol If it didn't connect with you, fine; but don't act like it pulled an ROTS by being vague about character motivation.

And who can forget the one that ruined the final scene between Obi-wan and Anakin on Mustufar - ''I HATE YOU!!!'', like a teenage girl whose parents have grounded her before the big party at Jessica's house. :slap

I'll agree that that line leaves a LOT to be desired, but cut the guy some slack, will ya? At that moment, his junk was literally on fire.

:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Gotta disagree with your take on Anakin's view of the Jedi, and how that impacted his turn to the dark side. In fact, it's part of the reason why his turn in ROTS was so stupid (only my opinion, of course).

Anakin wasn't sure that the Jedi had good and valid intentions. Fine. He resented their suspicions and misgivings. Fine. BUT . . . then he realized that Palpatine *was indeed* a Sith, and very much validated the Jedi Council's trepidation and uneasiness. Everything the Jedi Council had done with respect to being cautious about Chancellor Palpatine proved Anakin *wrong* to have doubted them.

So, when Anakin turned to serve Palpatine, you're suggesting that part of the rationale was established in ROTS by way of Anakin deeming the Jedi evil!? Um, no. :lol He saw that Palps was the actual evil manipulator (even was the one who informed Mace about it), and that the Jedi had every reason to be suspicious and cautious . . . yet he still chose to turn on them in order to serve an evil master. He seems to have done it to "keep Padme from dying." :lol That's absurd, and flimsily established. And it gets even more convoluted considering that he finds out she died before going on to serve Palpatine for another 20 years.

Sorry, you can justify ROTS logic all you want, but I think it fails on so many levels that it's almost not even funny. But I'm glad you dig it. Wish I could too.

And I strongly disagree with your assertion that TLJ failed to explain Luke's motives. The film actually took the time to have Luke spell it all out for Rey. :lol If it didn't connect with you, fine; but don't act like it pulled an ROTS by being vague about character motivation.





:rotfl:rotfl:rotfl

Anakins view on jedi changed throughout the 3 films because they forced him to give up everything he cared about. Which is why he kept his marriage and love of padme a secret. Common man you smart enough to have an actual discussion. The jedi said love is bad and because of this he let his mother die, he was not going to let his wife die, but Ironically he ended up killing her himself. He turned evil out of love, and the jedi's forced repression of it. Luke changed all that, its was in fact love that saved his father and love that brought him back. The moral is not all emotions are evil, not all lead down the path of the darkside like the old jedi believed. Repressing love is evil, letting people you care about die is evil especially if you can help them
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Anakins view on jedi changed throughout the 3 films because they forced him to give up everything he cared about. Which is why he kept his marriage and love of padme a secret. Common man you smart enough to have an actual discussion. The jedi said love is bad and because of this he let his mother die, he was not going to let his wife die, but Ironically he ended up killing her himself. He turned evil out of love, and the jedi's forced repression of it. Luke changed all that, its was in fact love that saved his father and love that brought him back. The moral is not all emotions are evil, not all lead down the path of the darkside like the old jedi believed. Repressing love is evil, letting people you care about die is evil especially if you can help them

Anakin wasn't held back from anything that every other Jedi didn't have to adhere to as well. If he felt that he'd be better off without the Jedi, that be justification enough for leaving the order (like Ahsoka did in CW). But to turn evil, slaughter younglings, and serve a Sith master because he wanted to learn the power to keep his wife from dying!? That's the established rationale, no matter how you slice it. Not even worth the film it was shot on, imo.

We'll just continue to see it completely differently. TLJ too. That's okay. :duff
 
Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Anakin wasn't held back from anything that every other Jedi didn't have to adhere to as well. If he felt that he'd be better off without the Jedi, that be justification enough for leaving the order (like Ahsoka did in CW). But to turn evil, slaughter younglings, and serve a Sith master because he wanted to learn the power to keep his wife from dying!? That's the established rationale, no matter how you slice it. Not even worth the film it was shot on, imo.

We'll just continue to see it completely differently. TLJ too. That's okay. :duff

This was the problem with the jedi order, and why luke thought the jedi must end in TLJ. The notion that all the jedi order is doing is training future sith. Anakin was not the first jedi to turn to the darkside due to their strict beliefs. He was just one of many, that is the crux of the problem here. The repression of love and forsaking everything you care about to commit to the order, repressing these feelings is the catalyst for becomming evil especially when great harm comes to loved ones you could have protected. The issue I have with the last jedi is that Luke never would have taught the old jedi views to his new order pupils, including kylo ren. Luke had already changed the Jedi order the moment he allowed the love of his father to dictate his actions, he went against yoda and ben (the old ways), and he succeeded. He never would have taught Ben to give up on things he cared about, such as Han or Leia, if Ben was corrupted it would have been on his own, luke would not have been a facilitator (that whole lightsaber igniting scene while kylo was sleeping was so out of character I ignore it), he was not teaching love is bad, since it was love that allowed him to succeed against the emperor. So ya I don't buy any of the Luke character changes in TLJ, Kylo's turn wasn't lukes failure but a choice kylo made. However, much like Anakin, Snoke was in his mind at a young age, playing a similar role as Palpatine. Kylo's turn suggests that some people just turn bad, and nothing you can do can stop that. I can see luke blaming himself a bit for this, because he loves his family but he would never forsake everything he cared about, he wouldn't give up on kylo like he didn't give up on his father (because he succeeded with his father).

Rey encapsulates all of the new order stuff (I would assume luke would have been teaching his pupils), she uses her emotions as an asset, mainly derived from her love and compassion for her friends much like Luke (and even Anakin did before the jedi ****ed him up). She seeks to know her family, because she wants that connection she embraces love and emotion. Yoda burns down the tree (Symbolizes burning down the old ways and views of the jedi), then proceeds to tell Luke she knows everything she needs to already.
 
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