Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

a-dev your last sentence is so depressingly on point and accurate.....

BUT.........

Han Luke and Leia are in the ST therefore....

You are going down a path I can not follow.

Accurate, but in defense of the ST, history does tend to repeat itself. A Hitler-like individual could pop up again, if one inevitably does, would that then make WW2 pointless?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Reality sometimes can't be helped. But that doesn't mean our entertainment has to repeat like this, not when I'm sure writer candidates must have been climbing over eachother to get this assignment. Surely someone had a better idea than the First Order and fecking Starkiller base.

Your right about the Jedi being a bunch of idiots, thankfully the OT didn't focus on those ***** Jedi. Han, Luke and Leia were the main characters. Old ben was a liar and a coward, but he tried to make good on his mistake by watching over Anakin's offspring, for the wrong reasons of course but it was still a noble deed. That's the whole point of the story, the jedi failed. Yoda even admitted this

Unfortunately that still leaves maybe the biggest blot of all - Anakin/Vader.

Very accurate point as well but I think because they involved the original heroes again it taints their original victory.

Actually it is more akin to killing Hilter and leaving the Third Richt alone. Basically inviting the Third Richt to come back. They totally made Episode 6 pointless. The Empire was never destroyed just rebranded.

Yes and yes.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Doesn't the existence of a 2nd Death Star kind of "blot" the ending of the original Star Wars?

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

View attachment 448302



Reality sometimes can't be helped. But that doesn't mean our entertainment has to repeat like this, not when I'm sure writer candidates must have been climbing over eachother to get this assignment. Surely someone had a better idea than the First Order and fecking Starkiller base.



Unfortunately that still leaves maybe the biggest blot of all - Anakin/Vader.





Yes and yes.

No that is not a plot hole /blot lol thats point of the pt story, the jedi's dogmatic ways and hubris created anakin and why the order failed. The plot hole is ST luke forgeting everything he learned in the OT and from past jedi mistakes. This is why he disobeyed yoda and ben to begin with in the OT. He went with his heart and followed his emotions, the healthy ones love and compassion

 

[SilverStar17]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

At least they acknowledged this plot hole though in TLJ by having force ghost Yoda reminding him to pass on what he learned in the OT.

 

[Prime Clone]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

The Jedi weren't so much idiots as complacent after centuries of power. That, and "hard to see the dark side is".

As for Anakin, he was a reluctant - "conflicted", if you will - apprentice to Palpatine throughout his entire 25-ish-year tenure. Like any good Sith apprentice, he started plotting to take his master down as soon as he realised he'd been deceived.

His turn wasn't really that inexplicable. He sold his soul to the devil in order to save Padme. When he helped dispatch Mace he realised he was past the point of no return - "What have I done!?" - and decided his best bet was to double down with Palpatine and at least he might still save Padme's life - which was all he really cared about.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Doesn't the existence of a 2nd Death Star kind of "blot" the ending of the original Star Wars?

ROTJ repeated one aspect of a previous film within its own trilogy. Sure, it was a tad lazy and unimaginative from Lucas. But no, I wouldn't say it gave any sense of irrelevancy to what had gone before. We knew the Empire wasn't suddenly defeated with the first Death Star's destruction - their starfleet wasn't even present at the Battle of Yavin, Vader escaped and the Emperor was still out there. It was plausible that they could regroup. Whereas in ROTJ not only is the Death Star II destroyed but their fleet also suffers big losses and both Vader and the Emperor are killed. Things were clearly going to be different.

The sequel trilogy comes along and says 'nope'. Lets not even try to show anything new. We'll just rebrand everything, to use drbrad1975's word.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

ROTJ repeated one aspect of a previous film within its own trilogy. Sure, it was a tad lazy and unimaginative from Lucas. But no, I wouldn't say it gave any sense of irrelevancy to what had gone before. We knew the Empire wasn't suddenly defeated with the first Death Star's destruction - their starfleet wasn't even present at the Battle of Yavin, Vader escaped and the Emperor was still out there. It was plausible that they could regroup. Whereas in ROTJ not only is the Death Star II destroyed but their fleet also suffers big losses and both Vader and the Emperor are killed. Things were clearly going to be different.

Yeah ESB had already pretty much nullified any lasting victory of ANH so as lazy and uninspired as a second Death Star was I wouldn't say that ROTJ per se negated ANH. We knew that the first DS assault resulted in the Rebels winning a major battle but not the war. But at the end of ROTJ they *did* win the war. And they even stopped the second DS before it could destroy any more planets.

But the ST not only reverses the war between the Empire and the Rebels being won but you could even argue that depending on how critical Kylo Ren was to the rise of the FO that Luke, Han, and Leia might even be partly to *blame* for the billions who died from Starkiller Base. Ugh.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Yeah ESB had already pretty much nullified any lasting victory of ANH so as lazy and uninspired as a second Death Star was I wouldn't say that ROTJ per se negated ANH. We knew that the first DS assault resulted in the Rebels winning a major battle but not the war. But at the end of ROTJ they *did* win the war. And they even stopped the second DS before it could destroy any more planets.

But the ST not only reverses the war between the Empire and the Rebels being won but you could even argue that depending on how critical Kylo Ren was to the rise of the FO that Luke, Han, and Leia might even be partly to *blame* for the billions who died from Starkiller Base. Ugh.

What would have to be in IX for this ROTJ victory grievances to be rectified?

A 3 hour movie with:

A lengthy flashback spanning decades post ROTJ?

A massive LOTR style space and ground battle?

Rey and Kylo dying?

Luke not dead and scenes with Han?

Plenty of PT character cameos in flashbacks!

Vader is back!

Slave Rey costume?

Ewoks return?

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

The sequel trilogy comes along and says 'nope'. Lets not even try to show anything new. We'll just rebrand everything, to use drbrad1975's word.

But the ST not only reverses the war between the Empire and the Rebels being won but you could even argue that depending on how critical Kylo Ren was to the rise of the FO that Luke, Han, and Leia might even be partly to *blame* for the billions who died from Starkiller Base. Ugh.

I'm clearly missing something here, so I'm gonna depend on you guys to help me understand (please). How is the ST erasing the ROTJ victory and resetting the landscape in any way that we wouldn't have already been guessing would happen in any realistic scenario?

The Empire was defeated, and there was 30 years of peace in the galaxy. Snoke comes along and picks up enough of the pieces to mount the FO threat. So what? The 30 years of peace secured by the victory in ROTJ has been interrupted for a year or two by another power-hungry figure, and his apprentice (of Anakin's lineage). But that threat is about to be overcome by the remnants of the Rebellion (both in sprit *and* in form). Did we really expect the peace to last eternally? Would Luke even bother to train another generation of Jedi if he didn't understand that they'd be needed? Would Leia bother with a political career if post-ROTJ peace was expected to be a permanent condition?

Peace between planetary systems (much like it is between nations here) would merely be a period of "remission." The disease (evil) is always a threat to return, and needs constant monitoring in terms of prevention. Leia's vigilance was admirable, but stymied by politics, red tape, and much looking the other way. The only true sin that I see in the ST is that Han and Luke were apparently MIA while Leia was mounting her Resistance. If that's someone's objection, then yeah, I can see that. But erasing ROTJ? I don't get it.

If anything, the OT heroes are merely dealing with what was always inevitable anyway. In what realistic scenario is a huge power vacuum like the one caused by the fall of the Empire not going to be exploited by power-hungry ambitions? In what reality would someone not try to capitalize on that? Was this not the case in every EU story involving the OT heroes? Help me out here fellas! I just want to understand the objection.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I find it almost unimaginable, but I have zero excitement, zero interest, and zero expectation for Episode 9.

But we'll always have Rogue One. And I'm thankful for that.


What's really going to suck is when Disney starts putting "winners" from Disneyland's Star Wars Land into their Star Wars shows/movies. Khev will win and we'll see him cast as Admiral Baggo in a briefing with the Mandalorian. His line will be: "...and fast."

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Dammit, Khev's not online. I have to go this alone for the time being. I'm scared.


The objection is that from an entertainment storytelling standpoint the ST has taken the lazy route of repeating the same story again when something new and different would have been preferred. It is therefore not setting itself apart. It is a tacked-on rerun of something we've already seen.

Sure, as you're saying ajp, and as rushmore also pointed out, history can and does repeat itself so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that things could pan out like they do in the ST with Snoke and the First Order (Starkiller base going too far by any standards though IMO) but is that really the story worth telling to Star Wars fans 30 years after the OT ended?

You mention the EU - the EU had the benefit of not being set 30 years later and being able to have the OT heroes still in their prime. It was able to set itself within the New Republic era of the galaxy as the natural follow-on from Return of the Jedi showing the fruits of that victory.

TFA and TLJ, granted by some necessity, have skipped all that - but where they surely could have come up with something new they've instead just taken us right back to a Vader-type main villain, a Sith-overlord, a Superweapon, Star Destroyers, TIEs, white-armoured troopers and a comparatively small rebel force fighting against it with X-wings, a central Jedi hero and her friends.

PT: Fall of the Jedi/Rise of an Empire
OT: Resurgence of the Jedi/Battle against and ultimate defeat of the Empire
ST: Resurgence of the Jedi/Battle against and (presumably) ultimate defeat of the Empire....erm. Is this Groundhog day? Why are we seeing this again? At least put Bill Murray in it.

Khev previously had a great analogy about how unnatural a transition it feels to go from ROTJ into TFA - I'm kicking myself for not being able to remember but it hit the nail on the head...when he gets back online I hope he remembers what it was....

But the ST not only reverses the war between the Empire and the Rebels being won but you could even argue that depending on how critical Kylo Ren was to the rise of the FO that Luke, Han, and Leia might even be partly to *blame* for the billions who died from Starkiller Base. Ugh.

 

[ironwez20]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I'm clearly missing something here, so I'm gonna depend on you guys to help me understand (please). How is the ST erasing the ROTJ victory and resetting the landscape in any way that we wouldn't have already been guessing would happen in any realistic scenario?

The Empire was defeated, and there was 30 years of peace in the galaxy. Snoke comes along and picks up enough of the pieces to mount the FO threat. So what? The 30 years of peace secured by the victory in ROTJ has been interrupted for a year or two by another power-hungry figure, and his apprentice (of Anakin's lineage). But that threat is about to be overcome by the remnants of the Rebellion (both in sprit *and* in form). Did we really expect the peace to last eternally? Would Luke even bother to train another generation of Jedi if he didn't understand that they'd be needed? Would Leia bother with a political career if post-ROTJ peace was expected to be a permanent condition?

Peace between planetary systems (much like it is between nations here) would merely be a period of "remission." The disease (evil) is always a threat to return, and needs constant monitoring in terms of prevention. Leia's vigilance was admirable, but stymied by politics, red tape, and much looking the other way. The only true sin that I see in the ST is that Han and Luke were apparently MIA while Leia was mounting her Resistance. If that's someone's objection, then yeah, I can see that. But erasing ROTJ? I don't get it.

If anything, the OT heroes are merely dealing with what was always inevitable anyway. In what realistic scenario is a huge power vacuum like the one caused by the fall of the Empire not going to be exploited by power-hungry ambitions? In what reality would someone not try to capitalize on that? Was this not the case in every EU story involving the OT heroes? Help me out here fellas! I just want to understand the objection.

It does erase the Ot victory. By having the empire be stronger than it ever was and out gunning the rebel’s. It’s like everything they did was for nothing and the empire just got stronger from it. All they needed to do was find some shriveled old nut sack who knew the force and had deep pockets and boom. Empire is now stronger than ever. Can now have the funds to build a planet sized Death Star and various other things. It was rather stupid. Why couldn’t the empire start out as a small faction of terrorist? They just wanted to copy the original but in return made rotj victory seem pointless.

 

[Otomofan]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I feel like if you truly hate the PT or ST then you're not really a SW fan to begin with.

Oh cool. Didn't know Lucasfilm hired you as the official arbitrator of who is a "fan" or not.

I guess if you like a TV show but there's a bad episode, you're no longer a fan.

Or if your favorite band has a lousy song on an album, you hate that band now.

So turns out I've hated SW for four decades now, and had no idea. Thanks for clearing that up for me man.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

The objection is that from an entertainment storytelling standpoint the ST has taken the lazy route of repeating the same story again when something new and different would have been preferred. It is therefore not setting itself apart. It is a tacked-on rerun of something we've already seen.

I see. Your objection is, more or less, the same main criticism that has long been levied against TFA: a retread story with a lack of originality.

I had thought you were suggesting that the ST was invalidating the ROTJ victory, as if the logical trajectory for their post-ROTJ lives would've been a lasting galactic peace without anyone trying to fill the void left by the Empire's defeat. That's what had me scratching my head; to me, it only makes sense that someone would've tried to capitalize on the Empire's remnant war machine and structure. And obviously with similar imperial ambitions.

The criticism of lack of originality is one that I can totally understand, though. The problem for me is that this is Star *Wars* we're supposed to be watching. And if we're going to have wars in the stars, I wouldn't expect them to be all that different in nature when set merely 30 years apart. Rebels versus oppressors. X-Wings versus TIE Fighters (or similar combat spacecraft). Giant weapons to serve as proof of power (and as deterrent to opposition). All much like our wars here in our reality, using similar methodology generation after generation.

I think any plot that would stray too far from the established OT and PT nature of how these star wars play out would risk seeming too small in scope, and not epic enough to fit the saga. Then again, I don't agree with objections to the Rocky sequels continuing to put an aging (and even elderly ) Rocky in (or around) a boxing ring. I mean, what else would I expect from a Rocky sequel? A game of chess? International espionage?

But I don't want to obscure your point. I can understand and appreciate your objection. And again, thank you for clarifying. I have a much better sense now for what you resent about the ST. For me, I'm just glad to get this farewell tour from the old crew set against the backdrop of decent stories and great production value. Retread setup? Yeah. Lazy? Yes, in part (but also by necessity). Implausible scenario, though? Nah. Actually a pretty logical extension.

It does erase the Ot victory. By having the empire be stronger than it ever was and out gunning the rebel’s. It’s like everything they did was for nothing and the empire just got stronger from it. All they needed to do was find some shriveled old nut sack who knew the force and had deep pockets and boom. Empire is now stronger than ever. Can now have the funds to build a planet sized Death Star and various other things. It was rather stupid. Why couldn’t the empire start out as a small faction of terrorist? They just wanted to copy the original but in return made rotj victory seem pointless.

The First Order isn't stronger than the Empire ever was. Far from it. The Empire controlled the entire galaxy, and even had the power to arbitrarily do away with the galactic Senate. The FO, by contrast, doesn't control anything right now. Planets aren't answering to the FO in either TFA or TLJ.

The scope of the First Order is nothing even close to the scope of the Empire. The FO is basically a well-funded terrorist organisation with fancy tech. But their leader (Snoke) had no actual authority in the galaxy.

In no way does the rise of the First Order turn the ROTJ victory into a meaningless "all for nothing" accomplishment. The Death Star, the Emperor, and Vader were finished off. The Empire was eventually dissolved, and the Republic was re-established. The new Republic had close to 30 years without Imperial oppression. What you're suggesting in your post is the same as saying that WWI (started in 1914) was made a waste of time because the victory by the Allied Powers was "all for nothing" since Germany was right back at it again in 1939 to force the Allies into fighting WWII.

Of all of the criticisms against the ST, this one is the most nonsensical, imo.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I see. Your objection is, more or less, the same main criticism that has long been levied against TFA: a retread story with a lack of originality.

I had thought you were suggesting that the ST was invalidating the ROTJ victory, as if the logical trajectory for their post-ROTJ lives would've been a lasting galactic peace without anyone trying to fill the void left by the Empire's defeat. That's what had me scratching my head; to me, it only makes sense that someone would've tried to capitalize on the Empire's remnant war machine and structure. And obviously with similar imperial ambitions.

The criticism of lack of originality is one that I can totally understand, though. The problem for me is that this is Star *Wars* we're supposed to be watching. And if we're going to have wars in the stars, I wouldn't expect them to be all that different in nature when set merely 30 years apart. Rebels versus oppressors. X-Wings versus TIE Fighters (or similar combat spacecraft). Giant weapons to serve as proof of power (and as deterrent to opposition). All much like our wars here in our reality, using similar methodology generation after generation.

I think any plot that would stray too far from the established OT and PT nature of how these star wars play out would risk seeming too small in scope, and not epic enough to fit the saga. Then again, I don't agree with objections to the Rocky sequels continuing to put an aging (and even elderly ) Rocky in (or around) a boxing ring. I mean, what else would I expect from a Rocky sequel? A game of chess? International espionage?

But I don't want to obscure your point. I can understand and appreciate your objection. And again, thank you for clarifying. I have a much better sense now for what you resent about the ST. For me, I'm just glad to get this farewell tour from the old crew set against the backdrop of decent stories and great production value. Retread setup? Yeah. Lazy? Yes, in part (but also by necessity). Implausible scenario, though? Nah. Actually a pretty logical extension.



The First Order isn't stronger than the Empire ever was. Far from it. The Empire controlled the entire galaxy, and even had the power to arbitrarily do away with the galactic Senate. The FO, by contrast, doesn't control anything right now. Planets aren't answering to the FO in either TFA or TLJ.

The scope of the First Order is nothing even close to the scope of the Empire. The FO is basically a well-funded terrorist organisation with fancy tech. But their leader (Snoke) had no actual authority in the galaxy.

In no way does the rise of the First Order turn the ROTJ victory into a meaningless "all for nothing" accomplishment. The Death Star, the Emperor, and Vader were finished off. The Empire was eventually dissolved, and the Republic was re-established. The new Republic had close to 30 years without Imperial oppression. What you're suggesting in your post is the same as saying that WWI (started in 1914) was made a waste of time because the victory by the Allied Powers was "all for nothing" since Germany was right back at it again in 1939 to force the Allies into fighting WWII.

Of all of the criticisms against the ST, this one is the most nonsensical, imo.

Oh well at least a-dev gave a valiant effort can’t fault him for trying.

ajp you sir (or madam) are a beast so I almost wonder had you been a PT lover would your skills of precision convince a PT hater like myself to change my mind.

Hmmm.

Thinks of NOOOOOO!

Nope not even a person with your exceptional verbal skill set would convince me to love the PT.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I see. Your objection is, more or less, the same main criticism that has long been levied against TFA: a retread story with a lack of originality.

I had thought you were suggesting that the ST was invalidating the ROTJ victory, as if the logical trajectory for their post-ROTJ lives would've been a lasting galactic peace without anyone trying to fill the void left by the Empire's defeat. That's what had me scratching my head; to me, it only makes sense that someone would've tried to capitalize on the Empire's remnant war machine and structure. And obviously with similar imperial ambitions.

The criticism of lack of originality is one that I can totally understand, though. The problem for me is that this is Star *Wars* we're supposed to be watching. And if we're going to have wars in the stars, I wouldn't expect them to be all that different in nature when set merely 30 years apart. Rebels versus oppressors. X-Wings versus TIE Fighters (or similar combat spacecraft). Giant weapons to serve as proof of power (and as deterrent to opposition). All much like our wars here in our reality, using similar methodology generation after generation.

I think any plot that would stray too far from the established OT and PT nature of how these star wars play out would risk seeming too small in scope, and not epic enough to fit the saga. Then again, I don't agree with objections to the Rocky sequels continuing to put an aging (and even elderly ) Rocky in (or around) a boxing ring. I mean, what else would I expect from a Rocky sequel? A game of chess? International espionage?

But I don't want to obscure your point. I can understand and appreciate your objection. And again, thank you for clarifying. I have a much better sense now for what you resent about the ST. For me, I'm just glad to get this farewell tour from the old crew set against the backdrop of decent stories and great production value. Retread setup? Yeah. Lazy? Yes, in part (but also by necessity). Implausible scenario, though? Nah. Actually a pretty logical extension.



The First Order isn't stronger than the Empire ever was. Far from it. The Empire controlled the entire galaxy, and even had the power to arbitrarily do away with the galactic Senate. The FO, by contrast, doesn't control anything right now. Planets aren't answering to the FO in either TFA or TLJ.

The scope of the First Order is nothing even close to the scope of the Empire. The FO is basically a well-funded terrorist organisation with fancy tech. But their leader (Snoke) had no actual authority in the galaxy.

In no way does the rise of the First Order turn the ROTJ victory into a meaningless "all for nothing" accomplishment. The Death Star, the Emperor, and Vader were finished off. The Empire was eventually dissolved, and the Republic was re-established. The new Republic had close to 30 years without Imperial oppression. What you're suggesting in your post is the same as saying that WWI (started in 1914) was made a waste of time because the victory by the Allied Powers was "all for nothing" since Germany was right back at it again in 1939 to force the Allies into fighting WWII.

Of all of the criticisms against the ST, this one is the most nonsensical, imo.

I may not have been totally honest in my answer last night. I indeed had been arguing that the ST makes the OT pointless if you accept them as canon. Your response to that makes logical sense and yet I think you would still see me having the same complaint down the road. I'm still left with this sense that everything achieved by the OT heroes in those films was for naught.

Why would this be even after what Rushmore said and what you have argued in more detail?

The problem is we didn't get to see the fruits of that ROTJ victory before it is immediately dismantled by the very next movie in the saga. And TFA doesn't give a great sense of anything being different even before the FO unleashes Starkiller base and wipes out the centre of the Republic. The film opens straight away with a display of the FO's military might. At no point are we taken to the aforementioned centre of the Republic to see the workings of it. And because of their decision to essentially have the Republic and the resistance be separate entities, with the resistance being such a tiny force compared to what the FO seems to have it just feels like exactly the same set-up of the OT with a small rebellion fighting against an Empire. Your first 2 paragraphs in response to ironwez may be true but, in TFA, it sure doesn't feel like they're an accurate description of the state of things given what the film shows us and doesn't show us. I know why Ironwez would say that the FO is stronger than the Empire ever was - because it really does seem to be - it manages to build a superweapon many times the size and many times the destructive capability of the two Death Stars. It has a massive starfleet with a capital ship also many times the size of anything the Empire had. It manages all this without being in control of the galaxy? Wow. And I'm assuming that despite its losses over the course of TFA and TLJ it will still be a force to be reckoned with in Episode 9 simply because it needs to be keep with the tradition of a final climactic battle against the odds.

So beyond some stuff in the opening crawl of TFA and maybe a verbal reference or two that I'm not remembering because I haven't cared to watch these films very much, all we actually see is FO dominance over a small rebellion force - yeah, maybe there was 30 years of peace but we didn't see it. Considering the transition from ROTS (crap as it was) into ANH, the transition from ROTJ into TFA doesn't seem natural if you were watch these films from chronological beginning to end.

This ST's only reason for being is to provide new young heroes for a new viewing audience but as far as its place in the overall story of the saga its lack of originality makes it superfluous to requirements.

 

[xipotec]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I see. Your objection is, more or less, the same main criticism that has long been levied against TFA: a retread story with a lack of originality.

I had thought you were suggesting that the ST was invalidating the ROTJ victory, as if the logical trajectory for their post-ROTJ lives would've been a lasting galactic peace without anyone trying to fill the void left by the Empire's defeat. That's what had me scratching my head; to me, it only makes sense that someone would've tried to capitalize on the Empire's remnant war machine and structure. And obviously with similar imperial ambitions.

The criticism of lack of originality is one that I can totally understand, though. The problem for me is that this is Star *Wars* we're supposed to be watching. And if we're going to have wars in the stars, I wouldn't expect them to be all that different in nature when set merely 30 years apart. Rebels versus oppressors. X-Wings versus TIE Fighters (or similar combat spacecraft). Giant weapons to serve as proof of power (and as deterrent to opposition). All much like our wars here in our reality, using similar methodology generation after generation.

I think any plot that would stray too far from the established OT and PT nature of how these star wars play out would risk seeming too small in scope, and not epic enough to fit the saga. Then again, I don't agree with objections to the Rocky sequels continuing to put an aging (and even elderly ) Rocky in (or around) a boxing ring. I mean, what else would I expect from a Rocky sequel? A game of chess? International espionage?

But I don't want to obscure your point. I can understand and appreciate your objection. And again, thank you for clarifying. I have a much better sense now for what you resent about the ST. For me, I'm just glad to get this farewell tour from the old crew set against the backdrop of decent stories and great production value. Retread setup? Yeah. Lazy? Yes, in part (but also by necessity). Implausible scenario, though? Nah. Actually a pretty logical extension.



The First Order isn't stronger than the Empire ever was. Far from it. The Empire controlled the entire galaxy, and even had the power to arbitrarily do away with the galactic Senate. The FO, by contrast, doesn't control anything right now. Planets aren't answering to the FO in either TFA or TLJ.

The scope of the First Order is nothing even close to the scope of the Empire. The FO is basically a well-funded terrorist organisation with fancy tech. But their leader (Snoke) had no actual authority in the galaxy.

In no way does the rise of the First Order turn the ROTJ victory into a meaningless "all for nothing" accomplishment. The Death Star, the Emperor, and Vader were finished off. The Empire was eventually dissolved, and the Republic was re-established. The new Republic had close to 30 years without Imperial oppression. What you're suggesting in your post is the same as saying that WWI (started in 1914) was made a waste of time because the victory by the Allied Powers was "all for nothing" since Germany was right back at it again in 1939 to force the Allies into fighting WWII.

Of all of the criticisms against the ST, this one is the most nonsensical, imo.

Spot on.

The hubris of Skywalker and the Republic gave room for the remnants of the Empire to take root again, rekindling the war. Pretty simple actually.

The theme seems to be , no one wins in this war.....its just repetitive, as DJ says...only the war profiteers win.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I almost wonder had you been a PT lover would your skills of precision convince a PT hater like myself to change my mind.

I may not have been totally honest in my answer last night. I indeed had been arguing that the ST makes the OT pointless if you accept them as canon. Your response to that makes logical sense and yet I think you would still see me having the same complaint down the road. I'm still left with this sense that everything achieved by the OT heroes in those films was for naught.

The achievements of the OT heroes were never going to result in any permanency of peace. The quest for power, and the allures of evil, cannot be permanently erased simply by defeating Palpatine's Empire. There's always going to be a new threat; it's just a matter of time (30 years in this case).

What the OT heroes achieved was vanquish the evil Empire in *their* day and in *their* moment to shine. They secured peace for the galaxy. And just because the FO was able to commit a horrific atrocity with their Starkiller doesn't change the fact that they're basically a terrorist group that scored a huge hit.

By the end of Episode IX, the FO threat will have been dealt with. And without Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, and everything accomplished by the OT Rebellion, the galaxy would have much bigger problems than some rogue terrorist organization going around trying to flex their muscles.

The OT heroes changed the landscape. They couldn't end war altogether, but they sure did show what could (and should) be done in the face of evil and oppression. They fought. They sacrificed. They won. And every member of the Resistance, and every ally in Ep9, will simply be preserving what the OT heroes achieved - in part, due to the inspiration they provided. That's how legacies are made. Nothing can erase them.

The problem is we didn't get to see the fruits of that ROTJ victory before it is immediately dismantled by the very next movie in the saga. And TFA doesn't give a great sense of anything being different even before the FO unleashes Starkiller base and wipes out the centre of the Republic. The film opens straight away with a display of the FO's military might. At no point are we taken to the aforementioned centre of the Republic to see the workings of it. And because of their decision to essentially have the Republic and the resistance be separate entities, with the resistance being such a tiny force compared to what the FO seems to have it just feels like exactly the same set-up of the OT with a small rebellion fighting against an Empire. Your first 2 paragraphs in response to ironwez may be true but, in TFA, it sure doesn't feel like they're an accurate description of the state of things given what the film shows us and doesn't show us. I know why Ironwez would say that the FO is stronger than the Empire ever was - because it really does seem to be - it manages to build a superweapon many times the size and many times the destructive capability of the two Death Stars. It has a massive starfleet with a capital ship also many times the size of anything the Empire had. It manages all this without being in control of the galaxy? Wow. And I'm assuming that despite its losses over the course of TFA and TLJ it will still be a force to be reckoned with in Episode 9 simply because it needs to be keep with the tradition of a final climactic battle against the odds.

The only reason that the FO seemed so massive and powerful is because the tiny Resistance was the only force taking them on. If the entire Republic had decided to confront the FO, things would've looked a whole lot different! But JJ centered the conflict on the Resistance versus the FO for precisely that reason: the FO would've (and should've) been dispatched with relative ease by an Alliance of the new Republic. But they were sitting on their *****. In Ep9, we might learn why that was.

The FO, even with Starkiller, are a terrorist group. Simple as that. It's like if some terrorist in our world took a suitcase nuke into D.C. or London and detonated. Huge devastation and loss of life; but not because the terror group was some huge presence (like an actual government). A small force can still wreak havoc if there isn't a vigilant awareness of the threat. That's what happened in the ST with the First Order. That doesn't in any way make them close to what the Empire was, or negate the achievements of the OT heroes.

This ST's only reason for being is to provide new young heroes for a new viewing audience but as far as its place in the overall story of the saga its lack of originality makes it superfluous to requirements.

Yeah, the motives of Disney/LFL are all about money. And the new generation of heroes is intended to build a new audience to spend money like the generation before them did. But if we were to ever have a sequel trilogy with the original cast, there'd need to be a younger group too no matter what the motive. Someone had to pose a new threat in the story, and younger people would have to be doing much of the legwork.

Like I said about the Rocky franchise, just because the sequels aren't original doesn't mean that I'd rather not have had them. I could point to just as many parallels between "Rocky 1" and "Rocky Balboa" as I could between the OT and the ST, but I'll be damned if I didn't LOVE Rocky Balboa. I didn't want Rocky to end up down on his luck, losing Adrian, facing personal hardships, and wanting to prove himself in the ring yet again. But the way RB made me feel as I was watching one of my childhood heroes in a heartfelt and well-told story? Priceless!

So too the ST. But I'm only speaking for myself.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Everything always goes back to the TFA opening crawl.

32 years worth of exposition should’ve never been dumped into a few sentences TFA should’ve opened up with a 10-15 minute FOTR style prologue.

Come at me ajp bro lol

 

[Ropen]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

So, did disney ruin Star Wars Galaxy’s Edge then? The more videos i watch about the setting and the ride the more it feels like Disney is future proofing and betting on the future of the franchise than catering to the past movies?

I was excited about Millennium falcon’s ride but then noticed the ride doesn’t have anything to do with any of the movies, rise of the first resistance is based on you getting captured by the first order and the whole deal taking like an hour, then the setting, which was briefly mentioned in novels and on Solo, so iddk i really feel completely underwhelmed now since they use it as an excuse to raise ticket prices and merchandising for the franchise as a whole, this is why is hard to be a star wars fan with all the current content including episode IX, doesn’t really matter how they compare to the OT or PT, they don’t really care what everyone else has to say and act surprised when the internet trashes TLJ.

Some of you liked it, some did not, but fans are living in an era where we are beginning to voice our opinions against the corporations who feel they were doing whatever they want to garnish nostalgia investments out of us


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