Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

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lol...

Refute what points? As far as I can tell, this guy just hates Johnson, and didn't like the movie. So what? Same **** over and over (and over . . . ) again. He starts this video by saying, "I know a lot of you think I've beaten this topic to death over the last year and a half . . ." YEP!! He sure has. And it's the only way he gets views/clicks, so he keeps doing it . . . repeatedly. So, what's new here?

Oh good I hoped you'd respond. :)

Let me give you an example of the stupidity (as I perceive it) of the narrator of this video. Early on, he states, "saying that pushing the characters in an honest emotional direction is also stepping outside the bounds of the story, and taking it to surprising places, is contradictory and makes my head hurt to even think about."

I'm not surprised that his head hurts; his personal bias is preventing him from being able to rationally process simple concepts. You *can indeed* push characters in an honest emotional direction *AND* simultaneously step outside the bounds of the story while taking it to surprising places. In TLJ, Luke blaming himself and feeling like a failure is an honest emotional direction following TFA, where Han explicitly says that Luke blamed himself for what happened to Ben/Kylo. That's a pretty straight-forward example of linear story logic/progression. :lol What RJ did that then pushed the bounds was to inject Luke's questioning about the whole Jedi Order into his malaise. He turned the personal trauma of losing Ben to the dark side into a broader analysis of the very religion and belief system that Luke had dedicated his entire life to.

I no longer agree that Luke's state in TLJ is a logical progression of the character as we knew him in the OT. I say "no longer agree" because on my first few viewings I saw him as an emotional and raw character who was crippled by the pain of failure (or perceived failure) and then pulled himself up by his boot straps to get back into the fight again. And I think that that's probably what RJ was going for and possibly thought was his only option after being handed a story that had Luke inexplicably hiding away when his friends needed him most.

But...I no longer think that RJ executed it in a manner that honors who Luke was.

Let's shift focus for a second to the other pop culture phenomenon going on right now--the MCU.

Captain America became disenchanted with SHIELD (TWS), the government/United Nations (CW), and even half his team (also CW.) Then he was a part of the greatest failure in history which was not preventing Thanos from using the Infinity Stones to wipe out half the universe. However in none of those films did he turn his back on his closest friends or on innocents in need of protection. Even when there was no longer a battle to be fought he still stepped up and helped regular every day citizens deal with their grief (EG.)

Or maybe consider Thor, who in EG might be the closest equivalent to TLJ Luke with the way he seemingly "gave up" and let himself go. Even then Thor didn't turn his back on his remaining people or his closest friends. He wallowed in self-pity yes, but he was still a good and loyal friend ready to mouth off to an annoying Fortnite troll who was pestering his buddy at a moment's notice. :)

I could go on with Hawkeye and so on.

My point is that Luke could have been disenchanted with the Jedi Order as Cap was with the various institutions that he served. Or crushed by despair like Thor or Hawkeye. But he still could have been an inspiring character even in his grief. Okay so the Jedi need to end in his opinion. Do pilots need to end too? Why didn't he hop in a fancy new X-Wing and fly on Poe's wing? Or at least serve as a field commander like General Rieekan or someone?

Why couldn't TLJ have opened with Rey handing him his lightsaber and the camera pulls back to reveal a dozen pupils who did survive Kylo's slaughter, all being trained by Luke as the prep for a counter-assault on the First Order? RJ was *not* backed into the "all Luke's pupils are dead/using the Force is bad/he can't help Leia in *any way*" corner that he made himself out to be.

And that's what rubs me the wrong way. When immature Luke nearly froze to death he still hopped into a snowspeeder the very next day. When his snowspeeder got shot down he charged an AT-AT on foot. **** going wrong for him was kind of a staple of his character (buying droids that got his family killed the film before, etc.) but he was always there for the cause and his friends (arguably to a fault as the Emperor chastised him in ROTJ.)

And IMO TLJ Luke didn't react to failure in a way that lined up with even his past immature self, let alone the seasoned and enlightened master you'd think he would have become 30 years later.

Also I did think that it was a good point calling out Chewie for watching his friend of decades get murdered by Kylo Ren and then two days later deliver Rey right to him without a word. As we learned in ANH Chewie isn't a big fan of marching into detention centers to rescue innocents, let alone someone who may well be the most evil person he's ever seen.

And then there's simple recycling of the exact same three act structure of previous movies right down to the same battles being repeated with the same vehicles. Why? There was no need for that. We made fun of ROTJ for decades due to it ripping off the DS attack of ANH, why should the ST benefit with the full benefit of 20/20 in all the years since ROTJ. I don't mind broad stroke themes being repeated (Empire attacking Yavin base in ANH, Empire attacking Echo base in ESB) but at least change up the locales and ships and things. And that's where I've come to realize that even if I ignore what I perceive to be mischaracterizations of the main heroes and just want to sit back and watch the choreography and visuals on a scene by scene basis I found myself asking on my most recent viewing of TLJ "Why am I not simply watching the OT? I don't need this movie if I want to just AT-AT's marching across a white desolate landscape, I don't need this movie to watch someone try to turn a bad guy good while being escorted to a throne room with red guards via elevator, I don't need to watch this movie to see someone seeking out a reclusive Jedi master for training, etc."

So beyond some *awesome* memories of watching it with my kids on opening day now that the dust has settled I have a hard time feeling like TLJ justifies it's existence or inclusion in the Saga. Throw in RJ's twitter tantrums and insults to the fans and that makes it even easier to wash my hands of it. I don't *want* to forsake TLJ nor do I want to dislike it so I really do hope that somehow TROS is so good that I handwave away my issues with it and just call it good. But I'm not holding my breath that will happen. We'll see.
 
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Man, Khev is getting more and more based. I used to think the guy was a little *****, but now, I like him again. Especially after the AT-AT foot paragraph.

Dont ruin it.
 
Oh good I hoped you'd respond. :)

Glad I didn't disappoint. :lol

My point is that Luke could have been disenchanted with the Jedi Order as Cap was with the various institutions that he served. Or crushed by despair like Thor or Hawkeye. But he still could have been an inspiring character even in his grief. Okay so the Jedi need to end in his opinion. Do pilots need to end too? Why didn't he hop in a fancy new X-Wing and fly on Poe's wing? Or at least serve as a field commander like General Rieekan or someone?

You're asking why Luke didn't do heroic things to help the Resistance after Ben turned. It was TFA that said he didn't. For however many years took place between Ben's turning and the events of TFA, Luke just "walked away." That's not RJ's fault. I'm not blaming you for being upset that Luke went into exile (I was too), I'm just surprised that you're doing what everyone else does and pretending like that wasn't already established in TFA.

Why couldn't TLJ have opened with Rey handing him his lightsaber and the camera pulls back to reveal a dozen pupils who did survive Kylo's slaughter, all being trained by Luke as the prep for a counter-assault on the First Order? RJ was *not* backed into the "all Luke's pupils are dead/using the Force is bad/he can't help Leia in *any way*" corner that he made himself out to be.

So, you would've had Luke training new Jedi (thereby being tapped into the Force) and leaving the galactic conflict to his sister? To be off training Jedi while Han Solo was being murdered?

Luke abandoned his sister. That was TFA, Khev. What RJ inherited was a Luke mess. And here's why: he had to explain why Luke would just be standing there alone on Ahch-To (as JJ panned around a large section of the island in the last scene of TFA) when he would've been able to sense Han dying, along with billions of others before that (Starkiller taking out five planets).

You wanted to have Luke sense all of that tragedy and destruction without getting off of his *** to go help!? That's crazy! So, RJ had to explain why Luke didn't rush out to help: he didn't sense any of it. Why? Because he cut himself off from the Force. And why would he do that? Because . . . you know the rest. That's how story writing goes. You have to plot out the why and how; and these are things that JJ didn't answer in favor of mystery boxes.

And that's what rubs me the wrong way. When immature Luke nearly froze to death he still hopped into a snowspeeder the very next day. When his snowspeeder got shot down he charged an AT-AT on foot. **** going wrong for him was kind of a staple of his character (buying droids that got his family killed the film before, etc.) but he was always there for the cause and his friends (arguably to a fault as the Emperor chastised him in ROTJ.)

And IMO TLJ Luke didn't react to failure in a way that lined up with even his past immature self, let alone the seasoned and enlightened master you'd think he would have become 30 years later.

Why are you comparing stuff like what happened to him on Hoth? Getting attacked by a Wampa wasn't Luke's fault; it didn't hurt anyone else; and it didn't involve being responsible for the well-being of his own nephew, only to let evil grip him the way it had with Anakin. How is that Hoth example in any way equivalent to the guilt and remorse he'd feel over his nephew?

And buying the droids? Seriously? You want to compare that act to taking your nephew from his family and letting him get seduced into an evil monster right under your nose? I don't know, Khev; that seems like quite a stretch.

Also I did think that it was a good point calling out Chewie for watching his friend of decades get murdered by Kylo Ren and then two days later deliver Rey right to him without a word. As we learned in ANH Chewie isn't a big fan of marching into detention centers to rescue innocents, let alone someone who may well be the most evil person he's ever seen.

Were we supposed to see Chewie growling through a heart-to-heart conversation with Rey to talk her out of going? C'mon, man! If Chewie objected, Rey would still go on her own. By going with her, Chewie ended up being there to fly everyone to safety at the end.

And that's where I've come to realize that even if I ignore what I perceive to be mischaracterizations of the main heroes and just want to sit back and watch the choreography and visuals on a scene by scene basis I found myself asking on my most recent viewing of TLJ "Why am I not simply watching the OT? I don't need this movie if I want to just AT-AT's marching across a white desolate landscape, I don't need this movie to watch someone try to turn a bad guy good while being escorted to a throne room with red guards via elevator, I don't need to watch this movie to see someone seeking out a reclusive Jedi master for training, etc."

You don't have to watch it. No one is forcing you. If you don't like the ST, ignore it. If what you want is SW that uses things other than planet-killing devices, AT-AT marches, and reclusive exiled Jedi then go watch the PT. ;) You LOVE Rogue One even though it included an attack to take down a shield generator involving a space battle where the good guys were being led by a Mon Calamari (same basic premise that we saw with the Endor shield in ROTJ). You still enjoyed it because you love good Star Wars movies, even if certain elements are repetitive or redundant. If you don't think TLJ is a good movie, then just don't bother with it anymore. Focus on enjoying what you love, not dwelling on what you hate. :monkey3

Bottom line: I appreciate and respect your point of view, but I obviously see things very differently. I think TFA made the Luke situation harder to navigate than you do. But I love the discussion, as always. :duff
 

Marvel did it a few years a go on a punisher cover based off the Bowen punisher bust. Just really lazy 4B03BB90-9EB6-45E2-8CC9-871C3F03FEE4.jpeg3C0F1E19-4A72-422C-8B89-D208AA178457.jpeg
 
Glad I didn't disappoint. :lol

:duff

You're asking why Luke didn't do heroic things to help the Resistance after Ben turned. It was TFA that said he didn't.

No it was Han *in* TFA that said he walked away. Does that mean Han had to be proven right? The Avengers thought that Doctor Strange unheroically gave away the farm and even stated as much until it was revealed that he in reality he had a long term plan to defeat Thanos that they weren't immediately privy to. TFA did indeed imply that Luke simply gave up but that doesn't mean TLJ had to confirm it.

For however many years took place between Ben's turning and the events of TFA, Luke just "walked away." That's not RJ's fault. I'm not blaming you for being upset that Luke went into exile (I was too), I'm just surprised that you're doing what everyone else does and pretending like that wasn't already established in TFA.

See above.

So, you would've had Luke training new Jedi (thereby being tapped into the Force) and leaving the galactic conflict to his sister? To be off training Jedi while Han Solo was being murdered?

Luke abandoned his sister. That was TFA, Khev. What RJ inherited was a Luke mess. And here's why: he had to explain why Luke would just be standing there alone on Ahch-To (as JJ panned around a large section of the island in the last scene of TFA) when he would've been able to sense Han dying, along with billions of others before that (Starkiller taking out five planets).

Well again, a good writer will explore all his options. If he wasn't cut off from the Force we know that Luke would have sensed Starkiller blowing up planets and most likely Han being killed as well (unless that's only a family thing.) So would he have had to jump in an X-Wing that *instant* to help out? No, just like Old Ben didn't go charging out of the Falcon when it was captured by the Death Star. He devised a plan, strategized, and so forth. Luke could have been doing that when Rey arrived (remember it was only a few hours after the Hosnian System had been destroyed.)

Luke is on the cliff, processing the fact that Han just died, turns around with tears in his eyes to see Rey, she offers the lightsaber and then he gets to have his "let's go get this son of a *****" moment. Maybe there are other pupils and maybe there aren't. Since even TLJ implied that his X-Wing was inoperable they had a built in reason why he couldn't help anyone right there. No need to bring in the whole "closing himself off from his friends" element.

Or maybe even just say that like the funky cave in Dagobah the entire island itself does wonky things with the Force. Like the actual island is a "Force black hole" that can't be detected (hence it being a perfect hiding place for the ancient texts) but that also cuts off whoever is there from the rest of the galaxy as well. Then they could have said that in order to get the texts and possibly learn sweet new powers with which to use against the FO he had no choice but to be temporarily cut off from the Force, something that he didn't intend.

I just think that if you're writing this movie and you take days, weeks, hell 10 *minutes* mulling this stuff over that there are plenty of scenarios that would explain why Luke was off trying to accomplish something good in any way that he could, even if he *did* feel disenchanted with the Jedi Order.

Why are you comparing stuff like what happened to him on Hoth?

Because they are examples of how his entire life has been rife with bad things happening to him and his loved ones. Also his friends were quite literally "made to suffer" because of *him,* Yoda said as much. So did he go, "oh well I need to take myself out of the equation since people suffer on my account?" No. Did he surrender to Vader without a fight on Cloud City since him being alive put his friends in danger? No. That just wasn't who he was.

Even in ROTJ he realized that since Vader could sense him he was literally putting the entire Rebellion in danger by being on Endor. So did he follow Leia's advice to "run away, far away?" No, he realized that he needed to separate from his friends to protect them but that didn't stop him from, well, facing the entire Empire with a laser sword ("he was armed only with this.") And he was victorious.

Were we supposed to see Chewie growling through a heart-to-heart conversation with Rey to talk her out of going? C'mon, man! If Chewie objected, Rey would still go on her own. By going with her, Chewie ended up being there to fly everyone to safety at the end.

How would Chewie acting in character and arguing with Rey have been any different than Old Ben appearing out of thin air to argue with Luke about going to Dagobah? Or Yoda doing the same. Just because Luke (and later Rey) would ignore the friendly advice doesn't mean that those characters shouldn't have given it in the first place. Wouldn't you agree?

You don't have to watch it. No one is forcing you. If you don't like the ST, ignore it. If what you want is SW that uses things other than planet-killing devices, AT-AT marches, and reclusive exiled Jedi then go watch the PT. ;) You LOVE Rogue One even though it included an attack to take down a shield generator involving a space battle where the good guys were being led by a Mon Calamari (same basic premise that we saw with the Endor shield in ROTJ). You still enjoyed it because you love good Star Wars movies, even if certain elements are repetitive or redundant. If you don't think TLJ is a good movie, then just don't bother with it anymore. Focus on enjoying what you love, not dwelling on what you hate. :monkey3

Bottom line: I appreciate and respect your point of view, but I obviously see things very differently. I think TFA made the Luke situation harder to navigate than you do. But I love the discussion, as always. :duff

Ha ha, me as well. :) As for why I give RO a pass on the repeating themes well for one thing it ended mere minutes or hours before ANH so I would expect a lot of visual overlap but even with that RO *still* gave us cool new atmospheric TIE Strikers and visual geography for the ground battle unlike anything we'd seen in SW before.
 
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Holy crap how is this possible.

I feel that both Khev and ajp point of views are correct.

You 2 cancelled each other out lol


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Just got back from an unusual Sunday night pub session - ****ing disgusted that a Hot Toys figure gets used on an official movie poster (though I'm sure Hot Toys are delighted) - but I'm also more excited than I really should be to read the latest Khev/Ajp debate when I'm sober enough to understand it :lol Difabio's interest in particular makes me almost stand erect. Alas the drink prevents a full...wait what the **** am I saying....
 
Refute what points? As far as I can tell, this guy just hates Johnson, and didn't like the movie. So what? Same **** over and over (and over . . . ) again. He starts this video by saying, "I know a lot of you think I've beaten this topic to death over the last year and a half . . ." YEP!! He sure has. And it's the only way he gets views/clicks, so he keeps doing it . . . repeatedly. So, what's new here?

Let me give you an example of the stupidity (as I perceive it) of the narrator of this video. Early on, he states, "saying that pushing the characters in an honest emotional direction is also stepping outside the bounds of the story, and taking it to surprising places, is contradictory and makes my head hurt to even think about."

I'm not surprised that his head hurts; his personal bias is preventing him from being able to rationally process simple concepts. You *can indeed* push characters in an honest emotional direction *AND* simultaneously step outside the bounds of the story while taking it to surprising places. In TLJ, Luke blaming himself and feeling like a failure is an honest emotional direction following TFA, where Han explicitly says that Luke blamed himself for what happened to Ben/Kylo. That's a pretty straight-forward example of linear story logic/progression. :lol What RJ did that then pushed the bounds was to inject Luke's questioning about the whole Jedi Order into his malaise. He turned the personal trauma of losing Ben to the dark side into a broader analysis of the very religion and belief system that Luke had dedicated his entire life to.

By having Luke openly question the role and validity of the Jedi, so much about what we had assumed or accepted about SW lore was put up for re-analysis on screen. For much of the movie, Luke's disenchantment was a challenge to the audience to question how SW had presented the good (Jedi) versus evil (Sith) dynamic via use of the Force. But ultimately, the takeaway at the end is simply what it should have been for all of us at the end of ROTJ: Luke sets an example by standing behind the idea that true power is not wielded through violence, but rather through wisdom and the strength of one's convictions. He threw away his lightsaber in both movies, but for very different reasons. Yet those different reasons still stayed true to this overriding emotional honesty of Luke Skywalker: "there is a better way!"

Khev, if there are objective and irrefutable criticisms that you think this guy makes about TLJ, I'd love to discuss those with you. Maybe I'm just too dumb to pick up the salient points he made in the video. So help me out if you feel like it, and point out for me those *specific* criticisms that you feel undermine the value of the film. Tell me how this ****ing "Thor Skywalker" should be blowing my nipples off with his brilliant criticisms.

giphy.gif




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Oh man, lol. Wasn't there also a Predator blu-ray case that used a HT figure as well?



:lol :lol
Yes I think so. Just sheer laziness. I prefer when the case art is a theatrical poster but I don't care for the photoshopped posters that are in use nowadays. JYE should get some of his photoshops made as posters though. Some of those are legendary.
 
Still a bit drunk but I read those posts. Currently, with bias admitted, I'm inclined towards Khev's argument.

Ajp states correctly that TFA set this course...but that only means that TFA sucks aswell, not that TLJ is off the hook.

Focusing on TFA - lets not forget its the movie that criminally deprived us of ever having Harrison, Carrie and Mark share the screen again as their characters. It did so by killing Han off - so regardless of Carrie Fisher's unexpected sad passing - the reunion wasn't going to happen. Talk about subverting (30+ years) expectations? JJ Abrams had that covered. ****ing. Moron. One cannot stress that enough. Yeah, this is the guy to fix Star Wars. :lol

Well again, a good writer will explore all his options. If he wasn't cut off from the Force we know that Luke would have sensed Starkiller blowing up planets and most likely Han being killed as well (unless that's only a family thing.) So would he have had to jump in an X-Wing that *instant* to help out? No, just like Old Ben didn't go charging out of the Falcon when it was captured by the Death Star. He devised a plan, strategized, and so forth. Luke could have been doing that when Rey arrived (remember it was only a few hours after the Hosnian System had been destroyed.)

Luke is on the cliff, processing the fact that Han just died, turns around with tears in his eyes to see Rey, she offers the lightsaber and then he gets to have his "let's go get this son of a *****" moment. Maybe there are other pupils and maybe there aren't. Since even TLJ implied that his X-Wing was inoperable they had a built in reason why he couldn't help anyone right there. No need to bring in the whole "closing himself off from his friends" element.

Or maybe even just say that like the funky cave in Dagobah the entire island itself does wonky things with the Force. Like the actual island is a "Force black hole" that can't be detected (hence it being a perfect hiding place for the ancient texts) but that also cuts off whoever is there from the rest of the galaxy as well. Then they could have said that in order to get the texts and possibly learn sweet new powers with which to use against the FO he had no choice but to be temporarily cut off from the Force, something that he didn't intend.

I've previously been of Ajp's view that JJ pushed Rian into this corner with only one option of escape. I didn't like it but I begrudgingly accepted it - inasmuch as one can with what one considers non-canon - but this segment from Khev has me even questioning that now.
 
That awkward moment when Photorealistic figures make movie covers and the sad part someone got paid close to 50k for this, a lot of movie posters are outsourced to graphic designers lolol


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