Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Wor-Gar]

Palpatine is queer.

 

[YoNoSe]

Wor-Gar is trending!

 

[TaliBane]

Whats wrong with LGBTQ representation?


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Um, we are talking about a romance here (that's what the article is about,) not just "representation". So... let's explore.

First, as context, this is about truth vs virtue signalling, and private individuals, public figures and corporations saying they are okay with things... partly because they KNOW they "can't" do them, because others' views "won't let them" do so. It's a kind of choreographed game - in the article I cited, the participants are JJ, Disney, Variety and the reporter. All expect tacit benefits in various ways for seriously and earnestly advocating/discussing something... they know will not happen.

So now, let's set the stage: it's a Friday night, TROS opening night, latest Disney $250m tentpole - families, young teens, kids - and we aren't in a major metro area.

Onscreen there's some scenes of Poe and Finn playfully bickering - a clear suggestion of flirting. Then, to spite Poe's clear interest in Finn, Rey briefly kisses Finn to make Poe jealous - and we see Poe brood and Finn smirks, knows he's jealous. Then later, we find them alone in a starship corridor, Poe approaching Finn, and we pick up on a sexual energy/chemistry between them...

Poe: Scoundrel? Scoundrel? I like the sound of that. [he grabs and rubs Finn's hand]
Finn: Stop that.
Poe: Stop what?
Finn: [timidly] Stop that! My hands are dirty.
Poe: My hands are dirty too. What are you afraid of?
Finn: Afraid?
Poe: You're trembling.
Finn: I'm not trembling.
Poe: [moving closer to Finn] You like me because I'm a scoundrel. There aren't enough scoundrels in your life.
Finn: I happen to like nice men.
Poe: [moving closer still] I'm a nice man.
Finn: No you're not. You're--
[Poe begins to passionately kiss Finn for several seconds - and then Finn returns it, just as passionately]
C-3PO: [interrupting] Sir! Sir! I've isolated the reverse power flux coupling!
Poe: [annoyed as Finn retreats] Thank you! Thank you very much!

That's how a romance works in a SW film. So... is Disney, JJ and that audience in Hollywood's dreaded "flyover states" okay with this? What about internationally - like China, where Disney is trying to keep the brand alive, or other big markets in South Asia, Mexico and Russia, or smaller markets (that Disney would like to grow) in Africa and the Middle East? And I do mean honestly.

Palpatine is queer.

Wor-Gar is trending!

Palps' publicist weighs in to clarify that the old guy really didn't understand what "queer" actually meant - he thought it just meant being a bit offbeat.

 

[YoNoSe]

Assuming they’ve been following the discourse since TLJ I’m sure they are aware of the shipping in every orientation and non-binary people seem to think Rose is one hunky sack of potatoes so I’m sure they are campaigning to any butt they think they can get in a seat.

 

[jye4ever]

Junkion is king of comedy lol


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[Craig Walker]

Poe and Finn touch lightsaber tips.

 

[Wor-Gar]

3PO has always been queer since '77. Total representation within the key 7 leads. So the OT is covered.

In the PT, now thinking about it, Obi-Wan's masculinity is definitely questionable. The more I think about the way he speaks, yeah he sounds a bit gay to me. That would also make sense with the original casting of Alec Guinness. So that gay backstory works throughout the Saga-6.

And that whole "depends on your point of view" now makes much more sense what he's really saying there.

 

[xipotec]

3PO has always been queer since '77. Total representation within the key 7 leads. So the OT is covered.

In the PT, now thinking about it, Obi-Wan's masculinity is definitely questionable. The more I think about the way he speaks, yeah he sounds a bit gay to me. That would also make sense with the original casting of Alec Guinness. So that gay backstory works throughout the Saga-6.

And that whole "depends on your point of view" now makes much more sense what he's really saying there.

I always thought 3po was sorta ?fruity?.

He and R2 do fight like a married couple.



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[ironwez20]

C3po is definitely gay. But snoke I thought was gay to. That loud yellow rob with the slippers. Idk. All that pent up anger. Probably never came out to anyone

 

[Wor-Gar]

And that [Snoke] was Palpatine's facade. That loud, garish, slippered Snoke. Was Palps trying to express himself?

 

[jye4ever]

And that [Snoke] was Palpatine's facade. That loud, garish, slippered Snoke. Was Palps trying to express himself?

Palps held meetings at a giant sperm concert.




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[Otomofan]

And as angry as some/many seem to be - well, without Disney's deep pockets there wouldn't be anything SW at this point - maybe animated stuff, books, etc.

Yeah, well, would that be such a bad thing? That's how it was for the majority of my SW fandom. Just books and comics and RPGs and video games and toys and most importantly: my own imagination. And it was great.

A sequel to Return of the Jedi should never have even been considered to be made unless someone had written the most amazing script that anyone had ever seen that was just screaming to get made. As in, people get to the last page and there's just tears running down their faces and they say "Yes...yes....THIS is how Star Wars needs to continue!!"

Instead, they did the opposite. They made a movie (a "trilogy"....yeah, three fully planned out movies my ***) without a script, without a plot, without characters, without a point.....they made a movie that only had two reasons to exist: to make a billion dollars based on the title alone, and to push an agenda.

All the whiny ones- EVERY one of you will see this and give Mouse more bucks. You might use excuses like the tried-and-true" my friend/wife/cousin dragged me to it" but you will be there

Not a chance in hell. I'll watch it for free from a torrent of some Russian's smuggled buttcam, purely for the lulz, but never in the theater and never for even one bloody red cent to the Mouse.

 

[TaliBane]

3PO has always been queer since '77. Total representation within the key 7 leads. So the OT is covered.

In the PT, now thinking about it, Obi-Wan's masculinity is definitely questionable. The more I think about the way he speaks, yeah he sounds a bit gay to me. That would also make sense with the original casting of Alec Guinness. So that gay backstory works throughout the Saga-6.

And that whole "depends on your point of view" now makes much more sense what he's really saying there.

How that isn't more commonly discussed I have no idea. Ewan in the PT was about as gay as you can get. But yeah - Alec Guinness was at least bi, likely gay (in an era when it was criminal,) so maybe it was just method prep on McGregor's part.

 

[Ropen]

I kinda see Jye entering the theater as an adult then suddenly transforming into Ani going "yippee!!" at everything he sees then leaning over to his wife and saying "are you an angel?" and "the biggest problem in the universe is no one helps each other."

It is a kind of a funny idea that some people are programmed to love a SW film no matter what. Like literally - let's do a sit-com version (which TLJ tried in places) and still the lovefest continues. It's so post-modern - "what is a 'good film' anyway? It's all SO subjective!"

So long as the producer owns the brandname and it sells itself as part of "the saga" we're all good - "it's Star Wars, you gotta love it just like the OT."

These are ideas that came from GL himself in defending the PT - that it's for (little?) kids and a bunch of cynical adults ruined the PT reception. This is where the "love it no matter what because it has a SW logo" gets troubling. The blind embrace of mediocrity and/or laziness simply because it has the SW logo on it.

So that idea is what began the "war" involving SW filmakers, the media (which, oddly, backed the corporate giant and attacked the fans) and SW fans today.

yea it's not healthy to just love something just cause it has the logo slapped onto it. It's like Pizza. Are you gonna just eat crappy pizza hut becuase it use to be good and it has a brand name attached or would you rather get a pizza from a place of quality?

All the whiny ones- EVERY one of you will see this and give Mouse more bucks. You might use excuses like the tried-and-true" my friend/wife/cousin dragged me to it" but you will be there

If TROS flat out sucks I will commence operation burn the ST blurays on youtube and then hail ironwez as my one and only true master with ROTS being my favorite SW movie.


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Yeah, well, would that be such a bad thing? That's how it was for the majority of my SW fandom. Just books and comics and RPGs and video games and toys and most importantly: my own imagination. And it was great.

A sequel to Return of the Jedi should never have even been considered to be made unless someone had written the most amazing script that anyone had ever seen that was just screaming to get made. As in, people get to the last page and there's just tears running down their faces and they say "Yes...yes....THIS is how Star Wars needs to continue!!"

Instead, they did the opposite. They made a movie (a "trilogy"....yeah, three fully planned out movies my ***) without a script, without a plot, without characters, without a point.....they made a movie that only had two reasons to exist: to make a billion dollars based on the title alone, and to push an agenda.




Not a chance in hell. I'll watch it for free from a torrent of some Russian's smuggled buttcam, purely for the lulz, but never in the theater and never for even one bloody red cent to the Mouse.

Just ask the Apple fandom and see how that goes, brand loyalty is huge, but seriously I?m getting sick of it, oh look new mandalorian episode, omg where?s the plush baby yoda?s, what kind of name is the child ew nooo baby yoda?s is better, oh look let?s gush about another trailer, I can?t wait to see it. Then call every youtube blogger fascists and everyone who doesn?t love the bandwagon boomers.

Oh you can?t argue with them about canon in the eu because they religiously follow and buy everything post Disney purchase. Man I hope they sell this franchise like they did the smart thing of selling power rangers when they knew they screwed up. I mean honestly it?s all about money from merch they don?t really care about quality...

My girlfriend is moving heaven and earth to take the time off to see this movie and I?m like it?s cool, you won?t be missing much, I?ll just use your ticket towards my concession pricing.. hehe


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[cerealkeller]

Going through the thread, I can tell more people are down on TROS after TLJ, but I think it has a chance to surprise people. I have a love-hate-love relationship with TLJ and really disliked it for a long time. But I went back and revisited TLJ after watching CinemaWins review of it, and looking at it in a positive light was illuminating.

Its definitely not the movie I thought I was going to get, but what is there is actually complelling. Once the film gets to the point where Rey confronts Luke in the rain, it goes nonstop to the end. I love the throne room sequence, the battle of Crait is visually amazing, and Luke vs Kylo was such an emotionally layered fight. Its an interesting direction to take Luke and he ultimately redeems himself with the greatest show of force power we've seen.

Now onto TROS, and every trailer has gotten me more and more hyped. I've read every leak out there and I'm excited to see it all come together. I HAVE to be there opening night. It's the conclusion of the Skywalker saga! Though there are things I would've done differently to get to this point, I am really satisfied with what Disney has done so far. I'll be there Thursday at 5 pm! It feels good being excited for a Star Wars film.

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Ditto to every word. Except I'll be seeing it at 8PM in **** Rapids MN


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[jye4ever]

She also said a straight relationship is just as effective a tool for telling a story as any other kind of relationship.


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[TaliBane]

Ditto to every word. Except I'll be seeing it at 8PM in **** Rapids MN


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**** Rapids sounds like an attraction in... Disneyland.

 

[KerotanFrog]

It's literally beat-for-beat the same sequence as Luke surrendering to Palps in ROTJ - even some of the dialog is the same.



Firstly, it's visually exactly the same as the battle of Hoth - visually "snow" planet, Imperials arrive after discovering where the rebels are hiding, trenches with rebels, wall of walkers, large rebel base with huge door, rebels take on walkers in small converted speeders, super-energy weapon (just swapped from rebel ion cannon to Imperials "door-buster") snowtroopers follow black-clad helmeted villain in to search the base after the battle..... etc

Second, there is no battle on Crait. Neither the brief/abandoned "attack" on the walkers using the speeders, nor Kylo dancing around Luke's apparition even come close to qualifying as an actual "battle."



As stated above, there was no fight. Luke creates a holographic ruse - so it's a fake-out the entire time. Maybe he humiliates Kylo with a clever trick, but it's not a "fight."

Seriously - if I challenge you to a fight, and you show up and take swings at what you think is me until you are exhausted and slip onto the floor - then it becomes clear I was using mirrors to create a 3D image of myself and was never really there, did we "fight" in your mind?

Maybe I outsmarted you, or made fun of you, but we didn't "fight." Right?



But it's a force power that's dogged by so many questions that nobody officially or even on here can adequately explain it: the need for silly mental gymnastics and Leland Chee-isms to explain why no one ever used the power before, or even the BASICS of the rules; like what actually kills Luke (too much time spent doing it, or just doing it at all.)

It's that incredible murkiness that totally unravels any coolness this "new force power" might have generated, and yes, it could have been cool.

You can see that even the LFL "gurus" like Pablo Hidlago and Chee have been unable to come up with a scenario of what actually killed Luke (hint: the "too much time he spent doing it" makes no sense at all because of what Luke does in the sequence, even though that's what LFL seems to have settled on)



Because it's the only way to make the "fights" have some feeling of drama or importance - what's actually going on lacks all of that. They are both "fanboy" types (Rey for OT heroes, Kylo for OT villians) and there is never a shred of doubt that Rey won't even be injured and will prevail - because she can do anything. So you have to place these "duels" in a visually arresting context.

You are correct in that there are similarities to the ROTJ fight (including dialogue), but it is turned on its head when Kylo turns on Snoke and kills him, and then JOINS forces with Rey to fight the guards and then asks Rey to join HIM. It works so well because of the performances, but also because Kylo finally achieves what Vader couldn't - he turns on his master and becomes the Emperor.

I love Crait because of the white layered on top of the red. It looks amazing and gives subtle clues to what is going on in the Kylo-Luke fight.

And on to that fight, there is a LOT going on that I didn't catch until watching it multiple times. After Luke realizing he made a mistake in not going with Rey, he does the only thing he can - force projection. Kylo even foreshadows this earlier in the film when he first encounters the mind link with Rey. He says "why are we connected? You can't be doing it, the act would kill you." Right there, we get a feel for the severity of the power.

Luke would only do it as a last resort, and he knows that if he doesn't, Leia and the resistance will be killed. So he creates a distraction and it works flawlessly. When Kylo sees him, he immediately becomes blinded by rage, opening fire on him to a ridiculous degree. When Luke is still standing, he looks terrified. Luke even chooses the last image of himself that Kylo saw (dark hair, dark robes).

When Kylo comes down to fight him, it goes into a straight up Kendo style duel like the original Vader vs Kenobi. The scene is BEAUTIFULLY shot with the amber hues against the white ground and windy sunset. It is one of the prettiest shots I've ever seen in a Star Wars film.

Keep in mind Luke's entire point is to buy time for escape, so he has to keep up the ruse as long as possible. But even he is surprised at Kylo's powerful and rage fueled strikes. Kylo swings down (which Luke dodges) and immediately spins to bisect Luke in half (which he has to dodge in an inhuman way). At this point, Luke begins to tear up because he feels the extent of Kylo's hatred. And Kylo is so focused and angry, that he completely ignores all of the clues that it is a trick (Skywalker lightsaber, Luke's non-existent footprints, and his age). Most importantly, Luke acts as a Jedi should in this situation: he never attacks Ben. This is his nephew and he doesn't want to hurt him. In his actions (or lack there of), he is trying to apologize to Ben for jumping to violence that night in his room. It breaks his heart to know that he is the reason his nephew ended up like this.

When Luke senses the resistance is safe and has found Rey, he gives Kylo an ultimatum: if he strikes him down in anger, he will haunt him forever like his father does. He then allows Kylo to strike him and figure out the truth of the ruse. Even when Kylo makes this sliding charge strike, his feet slide across the ground to reveal and long red mark, like a bloody scar across his heart. Its all very symbolic of Kylo's continued descent into darkness and how he severs his family ties.

This is why I think its one of the most layered and meaningful fights. It is Luke's redemption as a Jedi and as an uncle. He is trying to protect his sister from her son and her son from himself. If he were to storm the base and murder his own mother, then he would truly be lost forever. I think Leia is the key to redeeming him and bringing him back to the light, but we will find out next week. When I first saw this fight, it wasn't what I wanted. I wanted Luke to raise his X-Wing, fly to Crait with his green lightsaber, and wreck the walkers and beat Kylo. But what we get here is more true to his character than that. That is what Anakin would've done. But how did Luke defeat Vader and the Emperor? He threw down his weapon and rejected the dark, like a true Jedi. So when he confronts Ben defensively and never attacks he redeems himself for his betrayal and cowardice. And that is why I grew to love this depiction of Luke and ultimately this film. I'm not saying TLJ doesn't have flaws, but there are some outstanding ideas here.

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[jye4ever]

You are correct in that there are similarities to the ROTJ fight (including dialogue), but it is turned on its head when Kylo turns on Snoke and kills him, and then JOINS forces with Rey to fight the guards and then asks Rey to join HIM. It works so well because of the performances, but also because Kylo finally achieves what Vader couldn't - he turns on his master and becomes the Emperor.

I love Crait because of the white layered on top of the red. It looks amazing and gives subtle clues to what is going on in the Kylo-Luke fight.

And on to that fight, there is a LOT going on that I didn't catch until watching it multiple times. After Luke realizing he made a mistake in not going with Rey, he does the only thing he can - force projection. Kylo even foreshadows this earlier in the film when he first encounters the mind link with Rey. He says "why are we connected? You can't be doing it, the act would kill you." Right there, we get a feel for the severity of the power.

Luke would only do it as a last resort, and he knows that if he doesn't, Leia and the resistance will be killed. So he creates a distraction and it works flawlessly. When Kylo sees him, he immediately becomes blinded by rage, opening fire on him to a ridiculous degree. When Luke is still standing, he looks terrified. Luke even chooses the last image of himself that Kylo saw (dark hair, dark robes).

When Kylo comes down to fight him, it goes into a straight up Kendo style duel like the original Vader vs Kenobi. The scene is BEAUTIFULLY shot with the amber hues against the white ground and windy sunset. It is one of the prettiest shots I've ever seen in a Star Wars film.

Keep in mind Luke's entire point is to buy time for escape, so he has to keep up the ruse as long as possible. But even he is surprised at Kylo's powerful and rage fueled strikes. Kylo swings down (which Luke dodges) and immediately spins to bisect Luke in half (which he has to dodge in an inhuman way). At this point, Luke begins to tear up because he feels the extent of Kylo's hatred. And Kylo is so focused and angry, that he completely ignores all of the clues that it is a trick (Skywalker lightsaber, Luke's non-existent footprints, and his age). Most importantly, Luke acts as a Jedi should in this situation: he never attacks Ben. This is his nephew and he doesn't want to hurt him. In his actions (or lack there of), he is trying to apologize to Ben for jumping to violence that night in his room. It breaks his heart to know that he is the reason his nephew ended up like this.

When Luke senses the resistance is safe and has found Rey, he gives Kylo an ultimatum: if he strikes him down in anger, he will haunt him forever like his father does. He then allows Kylo to strike him and figure out the truth of the ruse. Even when Kylo makes this sliding charge strike, his feet slide across the ground to reveal and long red mark, like a bloody scar across his heart. Its all very symbolic of Kylo's continued descent into darkness and how he severs his family ties.

This is why I think its one of the most layered and meaningful fights. It is Luke's redemption as a Jedi and as an uncle. He is trying to protect his sister from her son and her son from himself. If he were to storm the base and murder his own mother, then he would truly be lost forever. I think Leia is the key to redeeming him and bringing him back to the light, but we will find out next week. When I first saw this fight, it wasn't what I wanted. I wanted Luke to raise his X-Wing, fly to Crait with his green lightsaber, and wreck the walkers and beat Kylo. But what we get here is more true to his character than that. That is what Anakin would've done. But how did Luke defeat Vader and the Emperor? He threw down his weapon and rejected the dark, like a true Jedi. So when he confronts Ben defensively and never attacks he redeems himself for his betrayal and cowardice. And that is why I grew to love this depiction of Luke and ultimately this film. I'm not saying TLJ doesn't have flaws, but there are some outstanding ideas here.

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Umm Vader turned on his master as well not just Kylo just putting that out there lol


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[abake]

The entire TLJ exercise is somebody trying too hard to be clever and not getting it right. Hint: the initials are R and J.