Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Wor-Gar]

The ST is and always will be simply an extended 3-part story loosely based on the events of Lucas' 6-part Skywalker Saga. Its Disney's first standalone Trilogy.

 

[JAWS]

Watched it again last night... Obviously there was no way i was going to enjoy this as much the 2nd time as the first.

Going in and knowing all the spoilers defiantly took away a lot of what made the film so enjoyable the first time.

Still IMO this film is way better than it had any right to be.

I still find it to be the best of the ST and blame most of its shortcomings and plot issues on RJ's The Last Jedi and KK for having the lack of an overall vision for the ST.

Its defiantly the "dumb" Star Wars film with everything going at such a break neck pace to tie everything together and fix what RJ broke that the story suffers for it.

I can see why people don't like the reintroduction of The Emperor and how it effects the end of ROTJ. Personally I think that Snoke could have still been used by making him the big bad who was in control of his own clone.

But there had to be a new Big bad IMO. A big part of this film had to be a story about Kylo's redemption and you needed a big bad for it and if you made a brand new "big bad" then you end up with the issue that the PT had by having a new main villain every damn movie (Maul, CD, GG). So if you don't go the Snoke clone way you have to use the Emperor.

Personally I still don't need to know why he survived the events of ROTJ but I understand why many want it.

As for what I personally did not like as much with the 2nd viewing.

Mostly the McGuffin stuff. There is just too much chasing around. Just let 3PO be able to translate as soon as they find the dagger. That way that is one less planet to have to go to. Focus a bit more on character interaction. Let the time on the Star Destroyer rescuing Chewie last a bit longer. Jumping from planet to planet looking for things, and things to do, is a bit much.. Having said that I do enjoy most everything that happens on those adventures.. Its just sort of dumb and rushed.

I would have also liked to see a better reaction when it is discovered that Palps is still alive. They all just take it in stride. This is a pretty BFD and they should acted like it was. The Death of Fisher may have made some of this impossible but the other actors could have sold it a bit more.

Other then those two complaints... I still find the film to be enjoyable overall, with all the things I discussed before still being the films highlights.

I do think reading all the reviews and comments here and watching all the youtube videos since seeing it effected my enjoyment a bit as I felt like I knew the film like the back of my hand before seeing it again. I was hoping to find some things I didn't notice the first time but most of what I did was just script issues

I would still rank this as my 4th or 5th fav Star Wars film with the OT owning the first 3 spots and this one and RO fighting for the 4th spot.

For me the fact film does enough right for me I have no issue including it as Canon and it still helps me appreciate the 1st two films in the ST.

My initial viewing was a 10 out of 10 and it made me feel like a kid again. For that I will always be thankful to the film and to those who made it. I hade a blast.

2nd time viewing it drops to maybe a 7 out of 10.. And for a Star Wars film not called A New Hope or The Empire Strikes Back, that's pretty damn good.


Next time I watch it will be on 4K. That will be the true test for me.

 

[Khev]

You mean the fact that Rey wasn't born a Skywalker and that wet X-Wings aren't supposed to fly didn't delegitimize the movie for you?

I find TROS very hard to rate (other than "high, very high") and think it will be in a perpetual rotation of being my "third favorite SW film" along with ROTJ and RO.

 

[JAWS]

I'm in the same camp now. For you, the ST was always superfluous because it undid the happy ending of ROTJ. I never saw it that way because I always assumed that someone would make an attempted malevolent power grab in the wake of the Empire. Story writers even drew parallels to the attempted Nazi regrouping in South America. To me, that seemed like a worthwhile story to pursue with Darth Vader's grandson. What would he ultimately do as more power came his way, and how would the Skywalkers of the past play a role? Still a worthwhile extension of the Skywalker Saga to define their ultimate legacy.

It was only TROS that I think totally undermined and undid the entire Anakin arc from the PT to ROTJ. The PT was all about the rise of the Sith, and how the Force had created someone to be the Chosen One who would ultimately end the Sith and restore balance to the Force. TFA and TLJ hadn't undone any of that. In fact, LFL was going out of their way to say that Snoke and Kylo were *NOT* Sith. Palpatine had still been eradicated by Anakin/Vader.

Then TROS comes along and says that the Sith were never defeated. Not only did Palpatine survive, there were *thousands* of Sith Eternal cultists working *the whole time* to build a Sith fleet of death star destroyers on Exogol. So, Anakin did no damage to the Sith. In fact, Palpatine even got stronger, merely inhabited a different body, and manipulated Anakin's grandson. Rey is the one who ended the Sith (maybe). Only *she* can be viewed as the true Chosen One. Everything else was just a setup to Rey bringing balance to the Force. All of GL's movies . . . reduced to being a setup!

And then Rey just steals the Skywalker name to fool fans into thinking that the entire Skywalker Saga of George Lucas wasn't just completely undermined. No thanks. I still haven't seen one single argument for TROS not undoing GL's Anakin arc from 1-6 that has any credibility.

How about the Force creating a chosen one is just a stupid idea to begin with

The Jedi of the PT spent so much time being wrong about everything, I have no issue with them being wrong again.

If you want to say that Anakin was the Chosen one then I still say that it was then fact that he broke from Jedi tradition and decide to merry and have children. This choice made him the chosen one. The one to have family members that would help restore balance to the force. Without them there would have been to defeat of the Empire in the OT. Without them to guide Rey there would have been no stopping them in the ST. It was all of Anakin's choices that brought balance to the force.

So its just yet another way that the Jedi of the PT got it wrong. Which the PT went to great lengths to show that their ways and Dogma had become an issue. So misinterpreting an ancient prophecy seems par for the course with that group



But if you don't like that explanation... I get it..

Just do what I had done for years with the PT and choose to ignore it.. It was actually the ST that allowed me to be more accepting of those events

 

[JAWS]

You mean the fact that Rey wasn't born a Skywalker and that wet X-Wings aren't supposed to fly didn't delegitimize the movie for you?

Put me in the camp that does not care about wet X-wings and Bombs dropping in space when it comes to Star Wars science.

Are people complaining that Rey was not born a Skywalker?? I have not read the past 5 pages... I like that she was not a Skywalker or a Kenobi. That would have. I like it that she is the granddaughter of the most powerful Sith of all time.. Helps give a pass to her powers in TFA and TLJ.

I find TROS very hard to rate (other than "high, very high") and think it will be in a perpetual rotation of being my "third favorite SW film" along with ROTJ and RO.

[/QUOTE]

I don't know if it will ever be 3rd again. Nostalgia will probably keep ROTJ in the third spot for me. It will be a battle for 4th with RO. This one was more in the spirit of the Star Wars then RO in its ability to have fun. IDK.. Only time will tell.

 

[JAWS]

Degree of difficulty should always be factored into a film's review. That's one reason people were so blown away by IW. Not because it was the must tightly woven narrative ever but rather that the Russos were actually able to weave anything coherent out of the 50 characters they were handed.

And I can easily argue that JJ's task was much more difficult than anything Lucas faced with the prequels (George had rich backstory on a silver platter and largely screwed it up) or the Russos with IW.

Granted, some of it was JJ's own doing (the unexplained 32 year gap, crafting satisfying send-off's for the big three after FAILING to reunite them one last time, etc.) but the majority was not his fault. RJ's decisions with TLJ, trying to tie the ST back to controversial moments of the PT (midichlorians, keeping people from dying, unlimited power), somehow not only making the guy who killed Han Solo not only redeemable but *likable* (I'm blown away at that one) and all while trying to interweave TFA footage of Carrie Fisher seamlessly into the narrative under the cloud of loathing by half the fandom. That can't help your confidence when you know that 50% of the audience has already decided to hate you and whatever you do on principle. Not that such animosity is fully misplaced since JJ himself did briefly join in with the "I think a lot of fans are intimidated by strong female characters" nonsense. So you made that bed for yourself JJ and can't blame RJ, KK, or GL for that one.

All of this​

Regardless of who was to blame and what the story should have been up to this point I honestly think that TROS is a master class in doing the impossible. This was the hail mary of hail maries and they scored. For me TROS didn't just make the ST (*and PT*) respectable they actually made them satisfying. Did they take the road to get here that I would have chosen? Of course not. But they made it home nevertheless

And especially this.

 

[Wor-Gar]

No way this tops RO for me. A space movie, especially a finale, without a grand space battle? Forget it.

This would be vying for the ROTS spot if anything.

 

[ajp4mgs]

How about the Force creating a chosen one is just a stupid idea to begin with

The Jedi of the PT spent so much time being wrong about everything, I have no issue with them being wrong again.

If you want to say that Anakin was the Chosen one then I still say that it was then fact that he broke from Jedi tradition and decide to merry and have children. This choice made him the chosen one. The one to have family members that would help restore balance to the force. Without them there would have been to defeat of the Empire in the OT. Without them to guide Rey there would have been no stopping them in the ST. It was all of Anakin's choices that brought balance to the force.

So its just yet another way that the Jedi of the PT got it wrong. Which the PT went to great lengths to show that their ways and Dogma had become an issue. So misinterpreting an ancient prophecy seems par for the course with that group



But if you don't like that explanation... I get it..

Just do what I had done for years with the PT and choose to ignore it.. It was actually the ST that allowed me to be more accepting of those events

I get what you're saying here, but the PT was used to show that the whole SW story revolved around Anakin's destiny. George always said that this saga was a family drama that just happened to have a galactic space adventure as a backdrop.

I agree with you that the whole "virgin birth" thing was dumb, but it was Lucas making clear that Anakin was *chosen* to end up being the central key to how the story would end. If you're going to extend the Skywalker Saga, and undo Anakin's achievements, then compound that by making the ultimate victor a Palpatine, I find it impossible to reconcile that with GL's story.

The whole point of this ST has now seemingly been confirmed to be just to glorify Rey as the ultimate answer. And I don't see how she was connected to Anakin in any way. Even his children didn't really dictate Rey's destiny. Apparently, her powers came from being a Palpatine, and she was using them before ever even meeting Luke or Leia.

But, JAWS, I'm legit glad that you enjoyed this one. Longtime fans being happy with new SW is a good thing. And, like you said, I can live with the ST being relegated to non-canon. A lot of it was hard to defend anyway, so this is just a shove in the direction I should've gone all along.

 

[JAWS]

Thank you.

Somehow TROS gets a pass for being bloated, muddled etc. but the PT doesn't. People excuse JJ because of the so-called mess RJ left him with.

I think its the acting and dialogue in the PT that gets more grief than being bloated. Always been my main issue anyways.

It's an exercise in futility trying to make sense of all the nonsense. Why didn't Rey just save Ben after he saved her? Just his time?

Sent from my SM-G975U1 using Tapatalk

I assume since you are giving away a part of your life to heal you are giving away your whole life to bring someone back from the dead. So Rey could have brought him back... At the cost of her life.

Perhaps that is not the answer many want but again I don't think everything in SW needs to be spelled out. I would argue SW was in a better place when everything wasn't spelled out.

 

[JAWS]

I get what you're saying here, but the PT was used to show that the whole SW story revolved around Anakin's destiny. George always said that this saga was a family drama that just happened to have a galactic space adventure as a backdrop.

I agree with you that the whole "virgin birth" thing was dumb, but it was Lucas making clear that Anakin was *chosen* to end up being the central key to how the story would end. If you're going to extend the Skywalker Saga, and undo Anakin's achievements, then compound that by making the ultimate victor a Palpatine, I find it impossible to reconcile that with GL's story.

Great points... I guess this is a case where you have to be willing to separate a bit from George's story.. For me it still works.

The whole point of this ST has now seemingly been confirmed to be just to glorify Rey as the ultimate answer. And I don't see how she was connected to Anakin in any way. Even his children didn't really dictate Rey's destiny. Apparently, her powers came from being a Palpatine, and she was using them before ever even meeting Luke or Leia.

If not for Luke and especially Leia's training she may not have been able to defeat the Emperor. She may have ended up on the thrown. Seeing that Ben Solo found redemption allowed her to find hope and not strike the emperor down. So IMO the Skywalker family (which all comes back to Anakin's choices in the PT) are important to Rey, her choices and who she is.

But, JAWS, I'm legit glad that you enjoyed this one. Longtime fans being happy with new SW is a good thing. And, like you said, I can live with the ST being relegated to non-canon. A lot of it was hard to defend anyway, so this is just a shove in the direction I should've gone all along

And I am sorry you didn't enjoy it as much. I can say this. I think it will be easier to ignore the ST then it was for me to ignore the PT.

Having said that.. Even before the ST I was finding things to enjoy about all the PT films and deciding to accept them as Canon. So perhaps one day that will happen for you with TROS.

 

[Prime Clone]

It was only TROS that I think totally undermined and undid the entire Anakin arc from the PT to ROTJ.

Word. I liked TFA and TLJ and was looking forward to seeing JJ work with what RJ gave him, not try to undo it (so much for his so-called risk-taking). Now we have a trilogy where two of the films subvert the one before.

Are people complaining that Rey was not born a Skywalker?? I have not read the past 5 pages... I like that she was not a Skywalker or a Kenobi. That would have. I like it that she is the granddaughter of the most powerful Sith of all time.. Helps give a pass to her powers in TFA and TLJ.

Trouble is, she's the "main character" in the third trilogy of the "Skywalker Saga". Maybe it's just my OCD, but I could've handled it if she was a nobody taking the Skywalker name... but not a Palpatine.

 

[a-dev]

I assume since you are giving away a part of your life to heal you are giving away your whole life to bring someone back from the dead. So Rey could have brought him back... At the cost of her life.

Other stuff also warrants a reply but for now I couldn't help but read this and immediately envision the hilarious scenario of Ben and Rey reviving eachother and dying over and over again until one of them says ''ffffinnnne'' and leaves the other dead.

 

[JAWS]

I recall earlier in the thread that someone mentioned the title of the film is ironic, being that it?s called ?TRoS,? while it?s a Palpatine who actually is the one that rises up and makes it to the end.

I was thinking about this, and while I was perfectly fine with the ending, I think it wold have been a bit more dramatic and lent more to the title of the film if Palps did in fact kill Rey, but Ben is the one that climbed back up the rock (as he did) and picked up the Skywalker and Leia?s saber, and defeated Palps. It would have at least truly been Skywalker vs Palpatine again. Then you could have had Ben sacrifice himself to revive Rey. Or have Ben be the one that survived and he went into exile at the Lars Homestead.

Even though his character arc was a bit of a cliche and was similar to that of Vader?s in the OT, I think I found Kylo/Ben to be a bit more of an intriguing character than Rey in this trilogy.

But you know, agenda and stuff.

That would have been a cooler ending for sure..

Then again it was a Skywalker that rose up and committed the ultimate selfless act to bring back someone... That someone who will continue the name of Skywalker and train the future Jedi.

Not so sure Ben could be the one to train future Jedi... Too much baggage with killing millions and all

 

[JAWS]

Other stuff also warrants a reply but for now I couldn't help but read this and immediately envision the hilarious scenario of Ben and Rey reviving eachother and dying over and over again until one of them says ''ffffinnnne'' and leaves the other dead.

I actually was having the same thought..

Only I pictured a corny ending where they kept doing it till they got to a bacta tank

 

[surforia]

My theory is that Anakin brought balance to the force but it was just temporary. Palps says in Rise that he has died already, so he was in fact killed, so when Anakin threw him into the Death Star and killed him, it ultimately left Luke and Leia as the balanced, light side of the force (male/female twins). When Rey is meditating at the end of Rise and Anakin tells her to bring back the balance, ?as [he] did? - she does this by finally(?) destroying the Sith and ultimately leaving Ben and her as the balanced, light side of a force dyad, if only for a moment. My $.02.

 

[ajp4mgs]

If not for Luke and especially Leia's training she may not have been able to defeat the Emperor. She may have ended up on the thrown. Seeing that Ben Solo found redemption allowed her to find hope and not strike the emperor down. So IMO the Skywalker family (which all comes back to Anakin's choices in the PT) are important to Rey, her choices and who she is.

I can't say that you're wrong; it's certainly as valid an interpretation as any. But it just isn't a concrete enough connection for me personally. Luke and Leia helped guide her, but most of everything that Rey achieved came to her by way of her natural powers and moral compass. She will always be too disconnected from the Skywalkers for me to accept that she's the one who ended Palpatine and the Sith.

And I am sorry you didn't enjoy it as much. I can say this. I think it will be easier to ignore the ST then it was for me to ignore the PT.

Having said that.. Even before the ST I was finding things to enjoy about all the PT films and deciding to accept them as Canon. So perhaps one day that will happen for you with TROS.

Thanks. If I can ever warm up to TROS on any level, I'll consider it a bonus. The GL episodes will be enough for me either way.

 

[Prime Clone]

When Rey is meditating at the end of Rise and Anakin tells her to bring back the balance, ?as [he] did?

That's the part when he ignores his own newly redeemed grandson who's lying in a pit nearby. Even Anakin abandons the Skywalkers in favour of a Palpatine!

 

[Khev]

Put me in the camp that does not care about wet X-wings and Bombs dropping in space when it comes to Star Wars science.

Are people complaining that Rey was not born a Skywalker?? I have not read the past 5 pages... I like that she was not a Skywalker or a Kenobi. That would have. I like it that she is the granddaughter of the most powerful Sith of all time.. Helps give a pass to her powers in TFA and TLJ.

Man I couldn't agree more. Luke simply procreating wouldn't have been a great accomplishment but converting Palpatine's heir? That's badass. Plus I love that the first thing Palpatine did to Anakin when he converted him was stripping him of his family name. Luke and Leia inspired Rey to do the opposite. And based on ROTS when someone gets a name change they are then instructed to "Rise" so for me the title is perfect.

I don't know if it will ever be 3rd again. Nostalgia will probably keep ROTJ in the third spot for me. It will be a battle for 4th with RO. This one was more in the spirit of the Star Wars then RO in its ability to have fun. IDK.. Only time will tell.

Oh I'll never fault anyone for holding the OT, including ROTJ, as being untouchable even with regard to the mighty RO. As iconic as ROTJ is though I've always wished they went a different route ever since learning what was originally planned and the ST more than scratches that itch for me.

No way this tops RO for me. A space movie, especially a finale, without a grand space battle? Forget it.

Definitely a fair criticism. I do remember my original teaser trailer reaction where I said that I'm a pretty easy sell for the finale since all they really have to do is give me likable characters for 90 minutes and then end with an awesome space battle and I'll be happy. Not that that would be *necessary* mind you, only that it would be grasping the lowest hanging fruit. The fact that I enjoyed TROS so much when the space battle was more wacky than exciting is just another credit to its success IMO.

Of course I have RO to thank for already providing the most epic modern space battle I could have asked for so that definitely took some of the pressure off of TROS.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

It's strange, critics hate TROSK (49% on RT top critics), yet those same critics reviews amounted to a 93% for TFA and 90% for TLJ, which is baffling how those two movies got so many good reviews. Fans on the other hand seemed to have turned against the first two films, very much like fans turned against the prequels a few years after they came out. The current narrative is that the ST is the worst thing ever, a complete mess, yet the critics reviews for the first two films are great, and the fan opinion on TROSK is divided at best. I wonder how this trilogy will ultimately be remembered. I doubt any of the new characters will stand the test of time, although I'm sure they have a few fans in the same way some people like Anakin and Obi Wan from the prequels.

 

[JAWS]

Word. I liked TFA and TLJ and was looking forward to seeing JJ work with what RJ gave him, not try to undo it (so much for his so-called risk-taking). Now we have a trilogy where two of the films subvert the one before.
.

IMO RJ left JJ with nothing..

I guess you could say he left him with a clean slate but it was the third film of the trilogy and we were back to square one after TLJ. Perhaps if TLJ and its ideas where the first film in the ST you could have created something from that. But IMO having Rey be so powerful and then say there is really no reason for it as she comes from nobody undercut everything that came before it. I mean Anakin was made by the force and yet he had nothing on Rey. She needed a reason.. I guess JJ could have came up with that she was made by the force also or something but man oh man.. RJ did not leave him with much.


I guess that is the difference between someone who like the first two ST films ( I assume you did ) and someone who didn't (Me).


Other than ANH and ESB all these SW films are problematic..

I guess this is a perfect example of being careful what we wish for